Yes. That works because the collar is loose. If the collar's tight it's being used incorrectly.

It's still negative reinforcement.

Sometimes I scream on here.  What works for some doesn't for others.  Negative reinforcement can be viewed in my opinion as two different things. I don't personally see a gentle tuck on any lead and rewarded as negative anything :-)  :-))  we go round in circles on here at times.  I tend to stay off the behaviour/training type threads as I am sure it ends up a competition!!!!!!!! 

I use a choke chain for one of mine for the simple reason it is the only thing she cannot escape if she panicked. It doesn't happen often but very occasionally it does,she came from a large kennel environment and occasionally spooks at things she hasn't been used to. ( carrier bags was the first hurdle). That gentle tuck seems to provide reasurrance in my eyes for her.  The rest of mine are walked on whatever I lift from my grooming room, some are semi show leads , some are leather.  I think it isn't the tools but the craftmen using them ;-)

> I gave up on the stopping and starting every two seconds routine after about a month on each :D

Phew, wotta relief! I thought I was in a minority of one here. And I'm also sure that I've got hands so hot that they are positively nuclear. ;)

I may cite the rules but I can't keep 'em :D :D :D 

Shudder, an open admission that it ain't perfection at Teri's Turmoiled Tervueren Towers   I'm glad of the company Roz  

passes Nips a chocolate raisin :rolleyes: :D  (RELAX!  just the one ;)

I still have the pull pull pull problem.  OH thinks I am a poor trainer and maybe I am but I've tried all the different methods advised (except the choke) and nothing has worked.  I hope someone will agree that some dogs are just happy choking themselves on any collar, I mean pulling to the point of causing them to be almost on their bellies, wheezing like a 60 fags a day 60 yr old should be negative reinforcement in itself shouldn't it?

I mean pulling to the point of causing them to be almost on their bellies, wheezing like a 60 fags a day 60 yr old should be negative reinforcement in itself shouldn't it?

No most dogs actually enjoy the pulling. :)

Technically you're right Marianne :)

Lindsay
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Edit: Oops ended up in the wrong place!

Thanks Lindsay -at last one person who got what I mean. :) Whether anyone agrees with how to do it or not is immaterial, my point being that the methods described still are negative reinforcement.

To train dogs without check chains, it's got to be done relentlessly  and also you can' tdo it whilst trying to get from A to B  - it has to be done in training sessions, using a harness from A to B. Otherwise folk get impatient and give up and the dog learns nothing...

I like the system of:

broad flat collar
occasional stop/pull harness to get from a to b when in  a hurry and can't train or will mess up training
lots of changing direction - works very well rather than the stopping method
asking for a loose lead when dog is about to be let off
asking for a few steps of loose lead and building it up slowly over time just before being let off
clicker training

so I've found initially a combination of methods and equipment works - I used to use check chains but I did hurt my dogs (used them too robustly although I got good results but I'd never use one again). Once the dogs knew what i wanted they never pulled, but it wasn't the way i wanted to do things. I think training loose lead walk is one of the hardest things to teach a dog. I want a well trained dog and so refuse to have one who really pulls but it's not easy. I think ideally the owner needs to actually be "into" training :P

For obedience heelwork I don't believe anything beats clicker or target training, but I found it wasn't always that easy to use it completely for everyday loose lead.

Just a few thoughts...

Lindsay
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Just to add Lindsay, my trainer (clicker) says a headcollar is also fine because the main point being the dog must never be allowed to pull (lead must always be slack), so using a headcollar for walks in between training sessions is fine.

I must admit I did try one on Banya and introduced it too fast when she was small, and she hated it. So i didn't use one - she does accept it now quite well but I don't use it. Is your trainer Paddy? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Lindsay
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Yes it's Paddy. :) I was suddenly having major problems with my pup (she's 20 weeks old) pulling like a steam train and I couldn't work out why she'd started it. Paddy said try a headcollar, gave me lots of info on how to train the no pull, and pup is now also in one of her classes.  She said it's often easier to introduce a headcollar to a young pup than to an older dog and I was amazed at how totally NOT bothered by it Rio was (compared to when I have used it on adults), and the transformation was instant and brilliant. It only took a few times with a headcollar and she could then walk nicely on a lead without it, with just a plain collar. Hubby walked her aorund a car boot on Sunday with a plain collar and he said lead was slack all the time so I'm really pleased.

Oh well if you've got Paddy helping you that explains a few things :)
She is so very good and helped me with a few glitches with Banya (which is when i started to pay more attention to all these funny terms :P ).

Glad Rio is doing so well. How does Paddy recommend training the no pull? I think it's still relevant to this thread...

Lindsay
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I have a document but I don't really want ro re-print it here as of course it is her copy right.:) But in a nutshell, ensure the lead is always slack, never let the occasion happen when it ISN'T, so use a headcollar or harness for walks if needs be. At home practice with a lead and just get the dog to follow you (food) as if the lead wasn't on. Reward when the dog is on a slack lead. If the lead goes tight, walk backwards or turn left into the dog. Make frequent turns and changes of direction when practising. Never follow the dog if he pulls, always change the direction.

In the competitive obedience classes of hers I've been going to all year (having a break right now as Rambo needed it so we're in the puppy class with Rio instead) she teaches heelwork OFF lead first to ensure the dog learns to follow you (lots of fast circles with the dog following food in your hand, eventually the food isn't used all the time but given afterwards), the lead is then just clipped on as in lower classes you need it but it isn't ever used, it's just there.

I've seen that fast circle method used when i went to a JoHill day :)

Thanks for that, I think this bit:

If the lead goes tight, walk backwards or turn left into the dog. Make frequent turns and changes of direction when practising. Never follow the dog if he pulls, always change the direction.

is really useful, it certainly helped me.

Lindsay
x

:)

i got my unruly terrier to walk to heel by using food, i used to take a crinkly bag of treats out on walks, i would hold bag in other hand and whenever she starts to pull or get distracted, i would crinkle the bag and get attention, so she would walk near, when she had walked nicely for a distance i would reward her with a treat from bag.

we now dont need treats, but i still occasionally use them to reinforce her good behaviour!

Well that got you all going! I asked the question because someone else had said that they had gone to a class and was told that she had to put one of these things on her dog. Her dog was walking perfectly ok on a halti but the trainer insisted.
By the way who is Paddy?
We also use the walk and turn method if a dog is starting to pull, but as someone said they shouldn't get to that stage if trained properly right from the beginning. Barbara Sykes has a method that I think can help.:-)

Paddy Driscoll. http://www.teamworktraining.co.uk

Here's a link to info re operant conditioning etc:  :)

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/Part2.htm#Rneg

Ok, I don't want to start a backlash of any sort. But my personal opinion is that every method has it's benifits and it's disadvantages. I don't prevent anyone who comes to our training club using whichever collar/harness/head collar etc etc they want. But I do ensure that they are taken away from the main class so I can see how they have fitted it, and also how they use it, before joining in with other dogs in the various exercises we go through.
  If we believe that the headcollar/harness/collar etc is not benifiting the owner or dog then we will advise another way to help to control the dog. I find using food is beneficial in a number of cases, however with any suspect temperments (for example) sometimes the owner needs a harness/different collar to feel in control.
  Some owners are petrified in coming to a session where there are other dogs, whether they are unsure of the other dogs or what their dog may do, I don't know, but the owner should feel confident before they start to train their dog.
  I have suggested that CHECK (only choke if used incorrectly) chains are used in some cases and we have later changed to a half check and then a flat collar so as the dog learns manners/how to behave etc etc and the owner has more trust in the dog and is more confident in themselves they are able to RELAX!
  May I say, before I go, that IF someone uses a chain, then I do make sure that if is the correct size, correctly fitted and also that ALL good/desired behaviour is rewarded, either by food/play or general fuss. Also that voice tone and timing is incredibly important, and sometimes this is more important than whether you use a chain/harness or headcollar.

If the point of a "choke" chain is the  noise/rattle,then why does it choke the dog if he pulls? Why not use a chain that doesnt choke the dog but still makes a rattle sound? Choke chains choke the dog if they pull,pretty simple isnt it??

The same as harnesses tighten when the dog pulls forward and the discomfort/pain is meant to make them choose not to. But I'm sure we've all seen dogs pulling on their harnesses, all out at elbow and rubbed. No method is perfect, but it's vital that a dog learns to walk nicely on a lead. Even farm dogs which only ever go on a lead to be taken to the vet have to be taught how its done. :( Just out of interest, Ktee, how do you train your dog/s to walk nicely on the lead without pulling? :)

>Just out of interest, Ktee, how do you train your dog/s to walk nicely on the lead without pulling?<

I am so the wrong person to ask that question to :D I use harnesses,but they only wear them when we are going to the vet or the groomers,all their walks are off lead as i dont walk near roads,only in the woods or fields etc.My dogs are velcro dogs which through NO training on my part have 100% recall because they never wander far,and i have always been their main point of interest,to date nothing has gained their interest enough to run off.For that i thank my lucky stars every single day,i am very lucky where these little dogs are concerned.I get people ask me all the time how i get them to hang around me off lead,all i can say is that's what they have been used to from the day they came home and being off lead is no big deal to them,they dont feel the need to run off hell for leather when i unclip the lead,because there is no lead ;)

However i have had other breeds before them,to which i have used the exact same routine,harness,off lead walks and had no probs with them either,i'm either extremely lucky or the way i do things works :) I cant say i have ever had a dog that pulls,if i did i would use a gentle leader or harness,never ever a choke chain.

I think you have been very lucky :)  I have mine off lead from their very first walk but most will want to venture a little further when teenage independence strikes.  I also find that getting them to the walk is so exciting that they will pull to get there if I allowed them.  How do you get yours to the woods and fields or does your property lead directly out into it?

why does it choke the dog if he pulls?

Because it isn't being used correctly.:rolleyes:  NO piece of equipment is a substitute for training.  All dogs need to be trained to walk comfortably with their owner.

I was speaking to my Vet last night and he has noticed a sharp rise in nasal tumours in the past few years, most of the dogs are head collar users.  Just his personal view and experience, of course. I feel an interesting debate coming on about that in the future.

I know I have read about studies (no, can't back that up as I can't remember where) about nasal tumours and owners smoking, also in relation to the length of the dog's face -dogs with longer faces faring better. There has also in the US been a sharp increase in nasal tumours in CATS, and they don't wear head collars. :) In the last few years there have also been a sharp increase in usage of plug in air fresheners and dogs breathe that in -could be a million reasons, couldn't it. I can imagine anti vaccine people blaming kennel cough vaccine.

Just out of interest, my lab x whippet had nasal tumour and she never wore anything but a normal collar ... :)

Lindsay
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I'm absolutely sure that the vast majority dogs who wear head collars will be fine, just as most dogs who wear check chains are fine too. :)  It's heavy handed, untrained owners who cause the problem.:rolleyes:  It was just my Vet's observation on the co-incidence that he'd noticed.

Longer nosed dogs appear to be more pre disposed to this problem.  Sorry about yours. :(

It was sad, we had one op. but that was enough, then we had to make "that" decision :(

I do feel your vet may have a point, because I've just remembered, our dog used to be hit
on the muzzle by her previous owner if she broke her stay - so perhaps the cells  were damaged...and perhaps that's why she later got the cancer...
Lindsay
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Good point Ktee. Some of my dogs wear (because they look nice, nothing else) half check collars which are all chain. So the noise is there but they can't choke.

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