Yes, I suppose so but that's a bit extreme isn't it and would probably have to include all the intended breeding animals which would bring about the end of dogs!  If people all acted responsibly no accidental matings need happen.

Which is exactly what I was trying to say, plus that castration is not a substitute for training, so to castrate at 6 months should not be encouraged "in case" there is a problem when the dog is older.

I don't think I ever disagreed with that :)

"Really the discussion is getting rather silly as it is becoming an argument as to whether ALL dogs should be spayed/castrated just in case a bitch gets pregnant in a 1000 to 1 situation."

That's not what I've been saying at all   I've been trying to put the point across (in this and some other posts over the past few months) that the vast majority of dogs are 'pets' and that there are a lot of owners out there who aren't 'responsible' in training/controlling these dogs.  So, their dogs should be neutered so that atleast if they do mate/are mated then there won't be any pups to be sold on to yet more irresponsible owners

"So dogs should be castrated just in case they get a neighbour with an entire bitch?"

That's not what I said

"Personally my bitches are not left unsupervised even in my own garden when in season and I consider my girls are MYresponsibility."

Yes, but how many bitches are?  You say your girls are your responsibility and equally a dog owners dog is their responsibility

Depends what you mean by a "pet"

We all have different definitions of the word pet but to me in its basic terms it is any animal looked after by a human in their home environment

So they should ALL be castrated unless they dont live in someones home environment?

"So they should ALL be castrated unless they dont live in someones home environment?"

Don't mean to sound rude but what are you going on about!?  Nowhere have I said that ALL male dogs should be castrated.  Nowhere have I said that the ONLY definition of a pet is that it lives in someone's home environment - I was simply answering your question in its most basic form.  You appear to be taking me totally out of context here

"the vast majority of dogs are 'pets' and that there are a lot of owners out there who aren't 'responsible' in training/controlling these dogs.  So, their dogs should be neutered so that atleast if they do mate/are mated then there won't be any pups to be sold on to yet more irresponsible owners"  I think we can agree that normal control can be lost over an off lead dog when an in season bitch approaches. 

"I think we can agree that normal control can be lost over an off lead dog when an in season bitch approaches. "

Actually no - not all entire males are even remotely bothered by in-season bithces

'Can' be lost, not 'will' be lost. Just as owners can lose control of their dog if a cat or rabbit runs across in front of it.

"'Can' be lost, not 'will' be lost. Just as owners can lose control of their dog if a cat or rabbit runs across in front of it."

Huh!?   I was merely pointing out that an entire male may not be bothered about an in-season bitch anyway

No, he may not, but it is just as likely that a castrated one would!

That is quite rare, same as the male driver that would not be distracted by a pretty girl walking down the road topless, whether his girlfreind/wife/mother is with him or not

And I'm pointing out that it's unfair to put avoidable temptation in the path of an animal and expect it not to react instinctively.

And I don't disagree as long as that "avoidable temptation" is put there purposefully and not purely by possibility which can and does happen.

Yes. And taking an in-season bitch out in an area where the owner knows there's a high probablity of meeting offlead, entire dogs is both foolish and irresponsible, IMO. Don't forget, I'm speaking from experience as a bitch owner here - not as a dog owner! ;)

"taking an in-season bitch out in an area where the owner knows there's a high probablity of meeting offlead, entire dogs is both foolish and irresponsible, IMO."

I've never said that it wasn't

So why are you suggesting that it's up to dog owners to keep their dogs on a lead in case there's an in-season bitch being exercised in a popular dog-walking area?

"So why are you suggesting that it's up to dog owners to keep their dogs on a lead in case there's an in-season bitch being exercised in a popular dog-walking area?"

I'm not but what I am trying to say is this - why doesn't an entire dog owner have as much responsibility to keep their dog away from an in-season bitch as the in-season bitches owner has of keeping their bitch away from an entire male when each of the owners has equal resonsibility to control their dogs? :rolleyes:

Me too.  At the moment I have two in season, my youngest and the little rescue I am fostering, so that means the other two get restricted walks too (have found dogs pester them when they can smell their companions on them).

I have had as many as 3 coming in one after the other so restricted walks for 6 or 8 weeks twice a year for all of them.

"get restricted walks"

I have never disputed the fact that walks for an in-season bitch should be "restricted" but have disputed the suggested simplicity of ensuring that they are indeed in a 'restricted area' when it is all too easy for an entire male to be round and about without the bitches owner being aware!  In this situation the bitches owner would not be at fault cos they have done the responsible thing - kept their bitch on a lead in an area they believed to be 'restricted'.  But from what I've gathered in other posts throughout this topic people have suggested that the bitches owner would be at fault in that position and IMO that is the wrong attitude to have :rolleyes:

The owner would be at fault if they deliberately walked an infectious dog where they were likely to meet others - an in-season bitch can be considered in exactly the same light.

"The owner would be at fault if they deliberately walked an infectious dog where they were likely to meet others - an in-season bitch can be considered in exactly the same light."

As I've said before there is a possibility of meeting another dog almost anywhere unless of course you're Richard Branson and have the luxury of living on your own private island.  So that suggests that what you implying is that all in-season bitches should not be allowed out of the house for the duration of their season :rolleyes:

In answer to your slightly off topic response - sometimes owners don't know their dog is infectious/carrying an infection because symptoms aren't always apparent

This is getting totally carried away now :D

>So that suggests that what you implying is that all in-season bitches should not be allowed out of the house for the duration of their season

No, as has been said time and again on this thread, they should only be taken where there's the least likelihood of meeting other dogs. It might not be possible totally to guarantee that you won't meet one, but you certainly do your darnedest to try.

>sometimes owners don't know their dog is infectious/carrying an infection because symptoms aren't always apparent

Owners of in-season bitches don't have that excuse.

"No, as has been said time and again on this thread, they should only be taken where there's the least likelihood of meeting other dogs. It might not be possible totally to guarantee that you won't meet one, but you certainly do your darnedest to try."

Yes it has been said - by me included! - but there are other posters on here saying that an in-season bitch shouldn't be taken out of the home environment full stop.

Anyway this saying things "time and time again" thing is like when I've said that I don't believe all dogs should be castrated, that bitches should not be allowed taken even on lead in 'busy dog walking areas', that entire dog owners have responsibility too, that there is always a possibility of things happening, that there are responsible and irresponsible owners etc etc etc but it seems to be forgotten rather quickly so maybe people have become deaf to the look of my typing :p ;)

"Owners of in-season bitches don't have that excuse."

I didn't say that they did was merely commenting on that part of your post

I said I didn't take my dog out but I didn't say this is a must for everyone.  I was particularly paranoid because I have a dog that I have always let off lead within a minute of leaving the house (failing on my part). 

"I said I didn't take my dog out but I didn't say this is a must for everyone."

I wasn't referring to you CherylS but several other posters from both this topic and previous topics with similar discussions over the past few months :)

"I am no fanatic. I am not here to 'save the world' and prevent every unwanted pregnancy, phantom preg. or female obsessed male being raised, Its all personal choice, but I find it very suprising on a board with posters who verbally support only ethical breeding and responsible dog ownership, that so many seem to, in any debate surrounding castration or spaying, talk as if one should feel guilty advising pet owners that there is very little negative and so much positive about doing thus.

Very suprising indeed.... and against all breed rescue, general rescue, vet, guide dog, assistance dog and general welfare advice."

Your post sums up exactly the point I was trying to make in another thread a few weeks back so *hear hear* to that

>My point is that it is equally as important for the Joe Bloggs of an entire dog owner to keep their dog under control at all times so that IF an entire bitch happens to cross its path/be within X number of miles with the wind travelling in the 'right direction' they don't let it get to the bitch or better still have it castrated so even if it did nothing would 'come' of the liason

I've always assumed that a responsible dog owner would want to keep their dog under control in all circumstances! However, I am certainly NOT prepared to put my entire dog into purdah on the offchance that some eejit lets their in-season bitch cavort about the countryside off lead. Something that happened to me a few months back! Fortunately, Nips was too young to know the difference between Stork and butter, to borrow my mother's favourite expression.

As I've mentioned before, I had a rethink about castration - something my vet suggested should be done at 6 months - and am now keeping an open mind. Not least because I want him to reach maturity so that I can make a more valid decision.

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
Hopefully this link will work.

In this article it explains why spaying and neutering should be delayed.
However they say if the new owners aren't vigilant that tubal ligation first in females
and when they reach maturity ovariohysterectemy.
Then in males vasectemy.
This might be useful.

Hope you all find the article helpful and interesting

>tubal ligation first in females
>and when they reach maturity ovariohysterectemy.

Two anaesthetics, two invasive surgeries! I think that is OTT.  I, personally, feel neutering probably ought not to be done until the dog is fully mature but if the owner is really not able to ensure matings will not happen then I think you just have to concede to early neutering.  It seems to have been done on a large scale in the US and yet large amounts of problems do not seem to be reported.
I agree with Peewee, by the way, that although bitch owners are obviously responsible for care of their entire bitches, responsibility also lies with the owners of entire dogs.
I know from my own experience that when both owners take responsibility it works very well.  This experience being, living in two places, one suburban middle class area where it is relatively rare to meet an entire dog and those that do are handled by responsible people.  Here I have, for 15 years, been able to walk by bitches on an extending lead, avoiding open fields but using the narrow canal tow path and merely assertaining if any approaching male is entire and asking owner to keep hold of him if he is.  This has always worked and I have never been harassed or followed home.  Admittedly that owner may have had to keep his dog on a lead for the rest of the walk but he is choosing to have an entire animal too and how often is he going to have to that in an area where most bitches are spayed and those that aren't have only two seasons of a few weeks in a year.  In the other area, a more rural attitude prevail ;) dogs are rarely neutered and rarely controlled by lead or any other method :rolleyes: holiday makers abound and seem to nearly all have breeds beyond their training and control abilities so within a very short period of moving theere I felt if my bitch was going to have any hope of the least bit of exercise she had to be spayed when if only all dog owners were as responsible as they are in the other other area and I had done my bit as well she really need not have been.

"I agree with Peewee, by the way, that although bitch owners are obviously responsible for care of their entire bitches, responsibility also lies with the owners of entire dogs."

Atleast somebody understands what I'm trying to say :)  One of these posts I'll get my point taken as it was meant ;)

I was walking my boys in a local VERY popular dog walking area (it is fully fenced in with deer fencing so even those with the "less" obedient dogs can safely release their dogs ;)  I had just returned to my car when another car pulled up (expensive car, well spoken people who you would have thought shared a fair few brain cells between them ) anyway, they got their dog out of the car on a flexi (which was IMO too small for the size of dog) and it came hurtling over to mine.  They dragged it off and said "oh best not let them say hello, she is in season" and off they trotted into the dog walking area now im sorry, but my boys are reasonably obedient, they do come when called if not the first time then generally on the second or third :rolleyes: but if they came accross an in season bitch whilst off lead I dont think I would be able to get them off with out using brute force - and by then it might be too late

So would this be my fault for leaving my dogs entire ? or the bitch owners fault for walking an inseason bitch where there is obviously going to be off lead dogs

I personally would only ever castrate a dog for medical reasons, such as a tumour.  Castration can cause really bad problems, much worse IMO than if the dog was left entire - but that has already been done to the death on here and I dont wish to bring it up again.

"So would this be my fault for leaving my dogs entire ? or the bitch owners fault for walking an inseason bitch where there is obviously going to be off lead dogs confused"

You stated that the in-season bitch was on lead so it was being controlled by its owner(s)

As a bitch owner I would not consider it resonable for me to flaunt my in season bitch on or off lead where dogs may be running loose. 

They should be either confined to their own homes, or walked where dogs are not allowed off lead, and therefore the chances of meeting them off lead are negligible, but I would still expect to have to take precatuions such as deodorant etc.

Even with human beings the prime responsibility for Birth control may be shared but women generally are far more concerned about the consequences.

"walked where dogs are not allowed off lead, and therefore the chances of meeting them off lead are negligible"

Just becuase dogs aren't supposed to be off lead doesn't mean that owners adhere to this (through blind ignorance or whatever) and thats one of the points I'm trying to make.

If you want guarantees, don't have anything to do with living things. Stick with inanimate objects.

Who said anything about wanting guarantees?  My point, or atleast one of my points has been that there are no guarantees only now other people wanna be taking credit for that and turn it round to sound like I do so :p to you ;)

:rolleyes: I hope you manage your college work better.

"rolleyes I hope you manage your college work better."

What does that mean?   How can you judge what I'm like at my uni work from a topic on a dog forum?  Incidentally I'm on my Easter Break :p

yes peewee and being flaunted in the face of all the off lead male dogs - I suppose that is responsible too then ?

"yes peewee and being flaunted in the face of all the off lead male dogs - I suppose that is responsible too then ?"

Nope its irresponsible and I haven't said anything to the contrary

>You stated that the in-season bitch was on lead so it was being controlled by its owner(s) 

you said the above, which to me was you saying the owners being responsible

In a way yes because their bitch was under control whereas your dogs weren't (you said they were off lead) but, as I said in another post, if it was in a 'busy dog walking area' then no it wasn't responsible because ignorance and arrogance asside they shouldn't have taken their in-season bitch there in the first place.

>they shouldn't have taken their in-season bitch there in the first place.

Exactly. :D In-season bitches shouldn't be taken where they're likely to meet other dogs. :D

"Exactly. :-D In-season bitches shouldn't be taken where they're likely to meet other dogs. :-D"

Likely means that there is a probability and there is a probability of meeting other dogs anywhere isn't there :D

This is getting stupid. :rolleyes: Let's assume, for the sake of rationality, that we're all talking about Real Life on planet Earth, or else we'd have to factor in those dogs living on isolated desert islands. :rolleyes:

"This is getting stupid. rolleyes Let's assume, for the sake of rationality, that we're all talking about Real Life on planet Earth, or else we'd have to factor in those dogs living on isolated desert islands. rolleyes"

Yes I agree with that but its only getting stupid because people on here don't appear to accept that an owner of an entire dog and another owner of an entire bitch have equal responsibility to ensure that their male or their female needs to be kept apart from the opposite sex when a bitch is in-season :rolleyes:

Its this suggested onus on the responsibility lying 100% with the entire bitches owner when if this were the case all entire bitches would be holed up in doors for 2 months of there lives without seeing the light of day while all entire dogs were allowed to go about their daily business/cavort around off lead to their hearts content without their owners ever running the risk of accidentally stumbling across someone who had an entire bitch either in their garden or whom happened to be/had been walking them on lead remotely anywhere near where the dog was *breathes* :rolleyes: