Thanks...that makes it clearer. So if like us we went for a dog with no interest at all in papers but purely because we love the type of dog and because of the foot and mouth these dogs needed active pet homes then what the KC decided had no relevance to our dog especially cionsidering the long heritage of this breed.

At training club a couple have always had rescue border collies...they love them...and the look on their faces when the trainer told them they were not to call them border Collies but Working Sheepdogs! Also there I was told the same and when we did the good citizen test the lady who tested kept pointing out my dog to the trainer saying what a superb border collie he was... and I noticed she was not corrected!

Do you know wjhere the name Border Collie came from and when it was first used... because it must have been around before the KC made a descision to split the breed.... I have oldish  books that refer to the BC rather then the WSD before they were KC registered.

Also someone mentioned a WSD can be a cross or a mix rather than being a 'breed'... they are just dogs bred to work sheep. I guess with no proven pedegree who knows... but normally they do look like a breed...in fact normally  rather like BCs! 

MInd you...I guess to a lot of people any black and white dog is a BC..... Some old person though mine was a JackRussel cos he was tri....I guess just a rather big JR. 

well... Fair enough old chaps in the park... no worries about what thwy call my dogs...but groomers, breeders and dog trainers... these are people with more authotiry and I just think they should be more respectful.

The word Border refers to the borders of the countries where the type of dog was developed ie the Borders of England with Wales & Scotland.

LOL this is one of the reasons that the Border Collie is not shown at Scottish Breeds shows-they are not Scottish-The Bearded & Rough & Smooth collies & Shetland Sheepdogs however are ;)

Edited to add this quote

In Scotland, when a sheep economy took hold, the sheepdog was absolutely necessary. James Hogg (1772-1835), a shepherd and poet from the Ettrick Valley in the Scottish Borders wrote, "without [the sheep dog] the mountainous land of England and Scotland would not be worth sixpence. It would require more hands to manage a flock of sheep and drive them to market than the profits of the whole were capable of maintaining."

I have a lovely set of books (special edition) called The New Book of the Dog.  I don't know when they were published but they are quite old.  In there they refer to the Collie or Working Collie.  In fact there is a picture of Mr James Scott's Kep 'one of the most perfect working collies in Scotland'  I suppose that would date my books if I knew when that dog lived?!

Actually it is the KC's decision

The ISDS register all the dogs as working sheepdogs(or Border Collie), & it is only the KC that call all dogs on their register Border Collies only if they are ISDS register or if their bloodlines go back to dogs that were on the then Working Trials & Obedience register from ISDS registered parents or their parents are ISDS registered(this includes the foreign BCs that come from exported ISDS or KC registered dogs(even though there is some Kelpie blood in Australian BC's))

So if we are being pedantic all the dogs that are on the Activities register are correctly called WSD as this is what the ISDS actual call the dogs registered with them

My puppy's ISDS reg cert states "a working sheepdog(or Border Collie)the Registered Parents.......has been registered with the Society..." according to the KC he is a BC ! but if I hadn't to bothered to complete the BC registration form & just put him on the Activities register he would be a WSD which is the name the ISDS use

If his breeder hadn't been an ISDS member he couldn't be ISDS reg but could stiill be registered as a BC by the KC because his parents are ISDS registered, if his parents weren't eye tested clear or had failed the eye test he couldn't be ISDS reg but he could be KC reg as a BC because his parents are ISDS reg. If his father's breeder was an ISDS member he couldn't be ISDS registered but could be KC registered as a BC because again his parents are ISDS reg :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

One reason that some dogs with all ISDS breeding behind are WSD is becaause one or more of their G parents weren't ISDS reg(for any of the above reasons) & so the puppies produced weren't ISDS eligible & possibly bred from so could not be KC reg

Because he is a CEA carrier(vis DNA test) the ISDS will only register puppies by my Rjj from a clear bitch, the KC on the other hand would register all his puppies from any bitch clear, affected or carrier :rolleyes: The ISDS would also require his puppies be DNA tested before registering puppies from them

"Why the insistence on pup testing before registration?

Once breeding takes place between known DNA status parents then the progeny have to be registered according to new rules; the reason for this is because they may have an unknown DNA CEA status. Even in situations where the DNA CEA status of progeny can be predicted, we require that the pups still be micro-chipped, and DNA tested if they are carriers, before registration. This is to ensure the integrity of declared pup status."

Yep it must be the CC status that happened close to when I got into dogs.

by BCs are infact WSs...........who cares!!!they are BCs really.
this whole thing annoys me actually. i could have ANY other breed unreg,& caLL IT BY ITS BREED NAME,yet my dogs have to be reg as a WS.

all mine have different amounts of history too.

Flynn has a  traceable pedigree as long as your arm.

nellie is show BC on her mums side.mix of english & NZ lines. & her dads a fsarm collie from a line the farming family had owned (unreg) for generations.

Tara,has no known details,but is farm bred.

guess who looks the most "breedy"? Tara!!!!!

if you want a nosey click on my name!
lololol
just call your dog what you like.
in obedience "most" of the lines i really like are WS anyway! ;)

also dont ever even try to explain it to a vet! it REALLY confuses them!!!!!

& lets not go into smooth coated BC's LOLOL or as a local Lab breeder called my puppy an obvious lab cross as all BC's are hairy !!!!! :D

arghhhhhhh

by BCs are infact WSs...........who cares!!!they are BCs really.
this whole thing annoys me actually. i could have ANY other breed unreg,& caLL IT BY ITS BREED NAME,yet my dogs have to be reg as a WS.
yep...exactly!  it's quite mad!

Beautiful dogs...beautiful photos! You are a superb photogropher and your Border Collies clearly get a life fitting to their breed! Anyone who's not taken a peep already should go look at these shots... well worth the browse. Thanks.

Well...I'm well and truly swung over to Aussies now...but those atmospheric assortment of BC pics could easily swing me back to the BC's. You have really lovely dogs. 

I've read this posting and am still confuzzled.  I've had border collies for a few years now and don't give a stuff if someone calls them borders, collies, sheepdog or anything else. I've previously had a rescue dog and I still called it a collie.  I've spoken to my dogs and they have said they don't mind what they're called. So why do owners. I show my dogs but also do agility and flyball along with my friends WSD or collie-crosses. This kind of conversation of what to call them has never come up. The only thing I had one time is someone dishing me saying why I spent so much money on buying my dog as hers was a fraction of the price and what a small dog mine was. That's my choice and no-one elses business. So I have had it the other way against what you'd call show dogs. I sit bang in the middle. I got my dogs to enjoy whether it be agility, flyball, showing or anything else. I'm not interested in anyone elses opinions on my dogs just as I would not criticize anyone elses dogs.
I got my dogs to enjoy them. A bit of paper does not make any difference to them or me.

I sometimes think I live in a totally different world! Only I've never had any sort of disparaging conversation about dogs while out walking mine although I've had all sorts of interesting discussions about breeds. Perhaps we really are just simple country folk out here.

I've had border collies for a few years now and don't give a stuff if someone calls them borders, collies, sheepdog or anything else.

Me too!!  I've been showing other breeds for nearly thirty years now but have always had non-registered, farm bred border collies.  Never called them WSDs coz to me they're border collies :D  I did register one on the Obedience and working trials record as I used to do working trials with him and just dug out the certificate.  He's down as a WSD but I ALWAYS called him a border collie! (he was born 03/03/83). 

I don't really give a stuff what people call them LOL

Debs

That's what I think Debs.
If i'm watching an agility competition, i'm not bothered whether their WDS or border collies. They're all superb to watch. Who cares. I wish this argument in the breed would stop.
I think it comes from both sides of the fence. Can't we all sit on it together and appreciate the breed for their companionship, intelligence etc.
It is generally agreed that the BC/WDS is the most intelligent dogs, however I've not found one yet that can read their registration papers.

WSD/ BC or Wuss they are all magnificent dogs  a piece of paper doesnt change that.

indeed!

satincollie
you have a wuss as well. Lovely breed :)

wusses rule!

2 wusses here ;)

i agree,if i like a dog i like it!

Great pics michelled! Beautiful dogs! However, i had to giggle as they really show the real reason they should be WORKING sheep dogs - anydog that can run a photo shop has respect from me!! :-D

bless him hes very clever!