Yup - let's just put it this way - before I tried Gusto, I would try all the varieties of JWB, all the varieties of Burns, all the varieties of Nature Diet, Natures Menu, of Arden Grange and Wafcol Salmon & Potato and Almo Nature. 

If NONE of those foods suited my dogs - and there must be about 20-30 there - then I would then look at all the others, assess the ingredients and make a choice about which was the best of the remaining ones.  I doubt even then that it would be Gusto.  So far I haven't had a dog which none of these 20-30 foods suit.

>and if they are aware of the ingredients and the implications of the ingredients

what implications are these ?

If you do a search for BHA or BHT, ingredients which are present in this food, you will see.

Sara - what is your problem?

You seem to take issue on every topic that you post on !:rolleyes:

>You seem to take issue on every topic that you post on<

Lokis i wouldnt say i take issue :) I will give my honest point of view,then perhaps a group of people may jump on me for it and then i am seen to be the antagonist,which i am most definetely not I\'m not one to say something and then slink away,i will then go on and defend myself against whomever >takes issue< to my posts,and because i\'m not in that particular group i am seen as the one who takes issue Just my little theory :)

I will give my honest point of view,then perhaps a group of people may jump on me for it and then i am seen to be the antagonist,which i am most definetely not

There's a WORLD of difference between giving your opinion, and actively trying to make out that people who do not feed the same way you do are failing their dogs! AND the to go on and outright say it is lies that our dogs are healthy!

This all reminds me of years ago when a friend of mine came home from school crying, because somebody had told her she was a bad dog owner because she didn't feed the same expensive food to her dog (that lvied well into her teens BYW) as some class mates did. It's scare mongering and school kid tactics. :rolleyes:

>i am seen to be the antagonist,which i am most definetely not

Mrs Mop, the OP said

>"I am not looking to argue pros and cons"

Remind me who it was who condemned the food out of hand and started the debate? ;)

Yeah but you lot couldnt wait to jump on the band wagon :D .When i wrote that first post i did not at all expect the influx of gusto fans,quite the opposite infact! It takes more than one to have a debate,so lets not shove the blame squarely on my shoulders K ;)

>make out that people who do not feed the same way you do are failing their dogs!<

Where did i say that? If you feel you are failing your dogs by feeding this stuff then so be it :)

Where did i say that? If you feel you are failing your dogs by feeding this stuff then so be it :-)

The system won't let me on to page 1 at the moment once it does, I will.

Like I said before, school kid tactics again with your remark above!! :rolleyes:

Still waiting for a reply to my question on if you'd like to come and meet all my dogs here, or one of them at Crufts, to judge for yourself how healthy they are? Seeing as I'm obviously not capable of telling if they are or not.

>Where did i say that?
>more a caring dog owner with more than a passing interest in what my dogs eat and what they need

So we're not 'caring dog owners'? :rolleyes:

Okay now I can get on to page 1, where for instance we find this statement from Sara clearly saying you want to put people OFF feeding Gusto:

TBH my first concern is for the dogs,the owners feelings are not paramount when it comes to this subject. Besides, maybe the people who feed this food arent aware of how unsuitable it really is,it cant hurt to try :-) I\'m sure there are loads of lurkers who read this site but dont post as i was for a fair while,some of whom may be considering this food,hopefully i can put as many off of feeding it as possible!

I think that answers the question on where you said that people feeding stuff you don't agree with fail their dogs.

Artificial preservatives.  BHA, BHT, Ethoxyquin, and propylene glycol. Have been known to cause cancer.



Thats all I could find, I wonder how many cancer cases have been linked to this ?  There is proof on here that dogs fed on this lead long and healthy lives. 

It is my understanding that there have never been any deaths linked, that it is purely a theoretical risk and even then concerning much larger quantities than have ever been allowed in food stuffs.  Apart from these are excellent preservatives, by some reports the best, some research has identified anti cancer properties to boot!
A recent thread highlighted possible dangers of feeding brocolli due to a small risk associated with another animal ie cattle leading to the fear of a theoretical risk to dogs but no known cases documented.  While acknowledging and understanding why someone may regard this as no longer worth feeding most people were of the opinion that the enjoyment and benefits it brought to our dogs justified its continued use in moderate amount.  I see a clear parallel here.
I have looked at the ingredients of Gusto but cannot see anything "harmful" as Sara states.  She should not be surprised to find other "educated people", who have taken a similar interest in dog foods, will not necessarily draw the same conclusions she has about what they have discovered in their reading of the subject :)

Hi ClaireyS

BHT and BHA are banned in 5 countries around the world, in both human and animal feeds, because of their cancer-causing properties.  Obviously other countries around the world feel there is sufficient evidence to take precautions around these ingredients. 

How many dog deaths have been proven to have been caused by the feeding of particular dog foods?

>BHT and BHA are banned in 5 countries around the world

and there are hundreds of countries with food regulations, our own included :), who don't see any need to ban it.  As I said, in parallel with the brocolli debate, if some choose not to avail themselves of something fair enough but to suggest that others ought to do the same when no measurable risk exists is over the top.

Isabel, I'm not really interested in how many countries there are with food regulations.  I stated a FACT, which is that 5 countries have banned these substances.  People can draw whatever conclusions they like from that.  If they choose to know that fact and continue to feed it - fine, I don't care.  If they choose to know that fact and find an alternative food - great.  However, I DO think that they should know the FACTs so they can make an informed decision.

I must have missed the brocolli debate.

"to suggest that others ought to do the same"

If you could just point me towards wherever in this thread I (me, not anyone else) have suggested that someone change the food they are feeding, that would be great, thanks.  As things stand, I believe it is plain that I have explicitly said the opposite:

"People are free to feed whatever they like to their dogs, and if they are aware of the ingredients and the implications of the ingredients, and they still want to go ahead and feed it, then fair do-s to them and I won't try to dissuade them."

ClaireyS asked me, directly and explicitly, what the substances are that I personally don't like in this dog food.  I answered her question.  I'm not sure who you think you are that you can dictate what people can and cannot say to each other on this thread?

>... that you can dictate what people can and cannot say to each other on this thread?

Quite! :) That is why I added what I understand regarding this point.
BTW The brocolli thread if you are interested :)

Thanks for answering my question by the way :)

I wouldn't put my dog through 20-30 months (because to give a food a fair chance you need to feed it for a month, unless of course it gives your dog explosive diarrhoea or other serious reaction) of experimental chopping and changing, I'm afraid.

There is no intrinsic reason that changing to Gusto will fix anything, any more than changing to any of these other foods, JG.  I also believe that variety is good and healthy and I routinely feed 2 different foods - one in the morning and one in the evening and have never had any problems.  I also swap around to another variety each time I finish a bag - none of my dogs have ever suffered any effects of changing over from one food to another, because they have been brought up on a variety of foods and so have developed the digestion to cope with this - as dogs would in the wild.  For many reasons I won't go into, I can't do Barf, but I do try to vary their diet as much as possible.  It is a fallacy that runny poo is inevitable when you change a dog's diet.

However diarrhoea is (as I said) one of the symptoms of a diet that's unsuitable for that individual. So is itching or constipation. To notice any change in skin or coat condition you need to give a diet time - it won't happen straight away. Which is of course why exclusion diets to determine allergies or intolerances take so long.

Hmmmm, does Sara mean that IF you feed Gusto to your poor doggy...you are an uncaring, unkind owner??? LOL (please see the tongue inside me cheek!)  Sometimes I just wonder....????

Well in that case, if it's not the diahorrea you're objecting to, then I've no idea why you

"wouldn't put my dog through 20-30 months of experimental chopping and changing".

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with "experimental chopping and changing", if the diets which you're "chopping and changing" from and to are healthy ones.

As I said, explosive diarrhoea would be one time when I wouldn't continue a full trial period of a particular food but instead would cease feeding it immediately.

However, when I find a particular food that my dogs enjoy and they do well on, causing them no distress, I would be foolish to keep searching for others, especially when the ones many people have recommended simply don't suit them. I'll stick with what works for us!

it works for my dog too :) and she likes it

And the cost doesn't break the bank either. That's a win/win/win situation. :)

:rolleyes: Oh not food snobbery again. It really comes back to if it suits your dog, then you're feeding it the best food. Mine adore the Pascoes, Bakers, Chappie foods and Bree was 16yr last December........I rest my case ya honour ;)

Well said liberty, that's just what it is. :)

For anyone who is interested, at the weekend I went to mate my bitch. I was talking to the stud dog owner about dogs we've loved and lost. She told me of her favourite who died last year of cancer aged 11. She had not fed her any commercial foods at all, stayed away from all chemicals so not even used flea treaments etc etc, AND she lives very rural in the middle of nowhere. Yet her dog still died of cancer.

It's not really food snobbery, liberty.  Some of us firmly believe that there are some ingredients in some dog foods which are harmful to dogs. 

Given that it's a free world and we have this belief, we are putting forward our point of view so that people who come onto this board to research food can read the other side of the story - a story which doesn't read "all foods are equal but different" (how lovely and liberal), but "some foods have better quality ingredients than others". 

This is a free world and I think we are all entitled to have our points of view heard.  All of you who feed Gusto and whose dogs are happy on it have loudly and clearly made yourselves heard here.  I don't really see why those of us who have decided NOT to feed it should not also voice the opinions behind those decisions. 

We (at least, I) am not suggesting anyone who is already feeding Gusto or any other food, change what they feed if they are happy with it and informed about the ingredients, but I also don't think it is entirely fair to let all food threads go into the archives containing the message "just feed what your dog likes and seems ok on".  Because personally, I don't believe that and it's not the message I would want to give someone who is researching foods.

If you want to give this the label of "food snobbery", it seems very strange.  After all, we all make decisions about what houses to buy, what clothes to buy, what washing machine powder to buy - does that mean we are "house snobs" or "clothes snobs" or "washing machine powder snobs"????  No, of course not.  It just means we have made a decision based on some kind of reasoning.

There is a world of difference to preferring something and going ON to say that people who do not agree with YOUR preference are doing wrong

Simple really :)

I'm not really sure where the whole "explosive diahorrea" subject came from - I don't think that's anything to do with what we're discussing here???  No one is saying that any of these foods cause explosive diahorrea, are they?  Or have I missed something??

Well I understand if certain foods do not agree with your dog, they may cause 'explosive diarrhoea'.  At the end of the day, there is no point gettin your knickers in a twist, people will and should be free to choose what they feed their dogs, without being led to believe they are letting their dog down in some way. Here have some 'ribena' and chill

Any food can cause explosive diarrhoea if it doesn't suit the dog, onetwothree. As I said thrice before (yes, you must have missed it!) :rolleyes:, it's one of the signs that that particular food shouldn't be fed to that dog.

I fully understand that, JG - but I have never said anything otherwise?!!!  Of course if someone's dog has explosive diahorrea (or any number of other symptoms) it might mean they should change the food!! 

What I said was, if you're going to give a particular food a fair trial to see if it suits a dog, it has to be for at least a month for any benefits/adverse effects to show. You suggested that there are at least 20-30 other foods you would try your dog to find one that suits before you tried Gusto. Fair enough - but I said I wouldn't subject my dog to nearly three years of food trials - if one variety of a brand doesn't suit, others are less likely to as well.

If there was a violent adverse reaction to any food (such as explosive diarrhoea or frantic itching) I wouldn't even give the food a whole month's trial. My dogs have had bad reactions to some of the foods you've suggested. No 'good food' will cause illness, will it?

Both of my young deerhounds had explosive diarrhoea on Wafcol Salmon and potato, one of the foods touted by the food faddists. The bitch has sensitive digestion and is inclined to have loose motions but the boy normally has iron digestion. The girl is now back on Chappie, a so-called rubbish food that suits HER and the boy is fit and healthy on an inexpensive VAT free dog food.

>if one variety of a brand doesn\'t suit, others are less likely to as well.<

Dogs usually react to the protein source,eg chicken,beef etc. So if the chicken version doesnt work,you can move onto a different protein source and so on and so on.

I must admit i have NEVER met or even heard of anyone who has fed a top of the line food and then finished with a bottom of the line one Usually pet owners who choose the good foods do so for a reason and would NEVER settle for anything less,and would definitely not downgrade so drastically to a food like gusto. I dont know,i just sense alot of exaggerations on this thread :(

I will forever remember goldmalis quote of >i dont care<,this helps put why some people feed what they do into clearer perspective.

I must admit i have NEVER met or even heard of anyone who has fed a top of the line food and then finished with a bottom of the line one

Well here's one. Neither Royal Canin nor James Wellbeloved nor Eukanuba  suited my dogs even half as well as Gusto does. And I know plenty of people with similar experinces. :)

>I must admit i have NEVER met or even heard of anyone who has fed a top of the line food and then finished with a bottom of the line one

Now you have Sara (or Hailey, or Rose, or Frodo, or Ozzie72 ;)! :) From the hype I used to think Burns was the bees knees, but my dogs' insides didn't!  It made them produce cowpats at best and JWB made them itch. They can eat all forms of meat without problems (oily fish doesn't suit them though), so it's not the meat content that upsets them - it's the formulation. It's just not right for them. If you wouldn't feed it to yours, fine. I like to try things before I condemn them.

Now you have Sara (or Hailey, or Rose, or Frodo, or Ozzie72

Yes I thought the whole thing sounded like a Hailey clone!

>Now you have Sara (or Hailey, or Rose, or Frodo, or Ozzie72 <

Your sense of self importance astounds me! Now because someone doesnt agree with you they are all of a sudden other people,yes that explains why i dont agree with you,NOT :rolleyes: I can see it now,the e-mails would be flowing to administration thick and fast! \"This person thinks MY food is terrible,she doesnt agree with the majority of us,therefore she must be such and such,lets get rid of her.Even if we are not sure,doesnt matter,we dont need people on here who disagree with US\" :D

Lokis you ask why my posts are negative,take a look at this thread and it shall answer all of your questions :( Unfortunately all the threads here are antagonistic and negative including yours,not only mine! Like i said i was not expecting this barrage at all! I am then accused of  starting the debate by the very people who are continuing the debate,then when i bring this up with them they have no other backup/answers,so they resort to ridiculous accusations Who\'s calling the kettle black??

If it would make you feel any better, from now on i could only post fluffy fru fru posts that agree with you all,would that make you happy Lokis mum? :)

No.   It would not.    I should like to know, when you speak with such authority, what is your experience?  Do you speak from experience on this subject or are you just someone who reads the pamphlets?   Are all dogs large?   Are all dogs black?    Can you not accept that there is not one food that would suit all?   Have you not heard that sometimes it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool, than to speak out and be proved to be a fool?

Your arrogance astounds me.  You consistently pour scorn on other people's points of view - whether on the subject of dogs or not.    You have obviously lurked on this board for a long time - hard to believe that you only joined 11 days ago - yet I cannot find one positive post from you on any subject 

Margot

> I should like to know, when you speak with such authority, what is your experience?<

I am in the tail end of  canine nutrition and homeopathy course.Thinking of doing a diploma in the subject when i\'m finished. Both mum and dad are homeopathic vets.

>yet I cannot find one positive post from you on any subject <

Here are a few: Raw tripe,shampoo,eating cat poo and raw bones-help.

But youre right in that alot of my posts have been on the negative,i honestly didnt notice this pattern and it certainly wasnt done on purpose,thanks for pointing it out ot me,i shall try and rectify this and balance the good with the bad :)

So now we have established that you are a student, about to qualify in canine nutrition and homeopathy (a subject I really want to learn more about) - what dogs do you have, and on what do you feed them :)

Margot

Gosh are you a night owl or what :p I would rather not have revealed what i do,from past experience on forums it had lead to millions of questions and me being touted the nutrition expert of the board which everybody is referred to,sometimes it can get a bit much.There are only so many hours in the day and i would rather not give medical/disease(cancer being a popular one) supplementation and such advice over the internet.There are many times when you have to see a real life,\"hands on\" vet to get a correct diagnosis.

Just quickly cuz i really need to go to bed :)

>what dogs do you have<

2 pugs,1 bull mastiff.

>and on what do you feed them<

Mostly raw,some homecooked,plenty of RMBs,on the rare occasion they get Burns :) I am a great believer in variety :)

I would rather not have revealed what i do,from past experience on forums it had lead to millions of questions and me being touted the nutrition expert of the board which everybody is referred to,sometimes it can get a bit much.

I don't think that is very likely to happen here somehow! Personally I believe in practical experience rather than text books.

>I would rather not have revealed what i do,from past experience on forums it had lead to millions of questions and me being touted the nutrition expert of the board which everybody is referred to,sometimes it can get a bit much.

I don't think you need have too many worries on that score. ;) Anyone who can't learn from other people's experiences is bound to have a very narrow-minded opinion and unlikely to be able to offer practical help in individual circumstances.

hi sara do you show your bullmastiff ? just wondering as i have 3 bullys regards Dawn

>>I can see it now,the e-mails would be flowing to administration thick and fast! \"This person thinks MY food is terrible,she doesnt agree with the majority of us,therefore she must be such and such,lets get rid of her.Even if we are not sure,doesnt matter,we dont need people on here who disagree with US\

Paranoid or what?