A valid point - I got an email from someone the other day to say that two bitches had whelped the same day in their house (not this country), and although they were in separate rooms one of them had killed the others thankfully singleton puppy whilst left for a loo break. :( Goes to show we forget how uncomfortable these thoroughly domesticated bitches can become in such circumstances.

However, in fairness, Karen didn't say they'd be all at once and we don't know her facilities for keeping them separate. Hopefully she will fare better than my friend.

M.

Why does anyone want to have three litters at once?What would happen if you had problems with the bitch or pups?What if two out of the three bitches died leaving you to handrear about 20 puppies?What if you needed to have a C section?There are so many what ifs its unbelievable.No one wants to think of the bad things that may happen but they COULD do and sods law says that it could all go wrong at once.You would then be left with sick pups/dam,and/or a huge vets bill.The costs may even out weigh the amount the pups sell for so you could also be at a loss there too.Why on earth do people do it? Not to mention the stress the poor mothers must go through having no peace and also the lack of time the breeders can spend with each litter doing health checks and all the other things breeder do (im not too sure what breeders do as i am not a breeder though i do know its not as easy as some make it out to be).Then theres the worming,fleaing,vaccinations,registering,etc etc etc.Too many things to do and not enough time to do it,in my opinion of course. :D

Erm dont think she actually said at once but possibly 3 in one year.

In general one would suspect anywhere that had several litters on the premises at once definately would be breeding more than just those 3 litters in a year. 

On the other hand decent breeders who have several litters a year would more often not have them at the same time, or if so just overlapping, but otherwise would be aiming to have one litter reared before another was born, for exactly those reasons stated.

My breeder who sadly died five years ago only averged a litter a year or less, but did have two litters at once on one occasion and the bitches whelped the same day (though mated about a week apart) even though one only had two pups. 

One I think may have been difficult to get in whelp on previous occasions , and the other was getting too old to leave another season, hence mating two bitches.

Even though there were only an average number of pups altogether she found it very hard and would never have done it again, and she had Kennel facilities.

Just to add that we took back a 'pup' of our breeding 3 years ago - he was 7 years old at the time and his family could no longer keep him due to a messy divorce - he came back here and stayed with us until his death last year -in over 20 years we have only bred 3 litters but this still happened to us -  we all do everything we can to find the best homes for our pups but circumstances change and there must be a safety net for ALL the pups you breed - even well into adulthood - if the breeder cannot/will not provide it then rescue often is the only option and in popular breeds (like Dalmatians !) there seems to be more than enough dogs on rescue without overbreeding adding to the numbers ( and yes i do consider 3 litter a year over breeding :()

Yvonne

I have been lookin through the 3rd Quater BRS for HOunds and was astounded to see that in Rhodesian Ridgebacks there are nearly 3 times as many pups registered each quater as in my breed each year.

I have only ever met 3 as Pets when out and about, and wonder where the homes for such a large, and fairly strong in mind and body hound are found?

I have dobe friends and would be terrified to breed a litter when they easily ahve 10 pups, and sorting out the new homes from the majority of applicants that are not suitable

I have been lucky in averaging just under 6 pups a litter (3 to 9 pups, but most often 4 to 7), and I would never say they ar the dog for everyone, but they are a far easier prospect than many breeds some also of the Spitz type, being bred in their thousands.

hello , just been reading all the posts and was wondering what Karen refers to as an "inferior" dog? Surely if she loves all her puppies she breeds then none should be inferior to her?:rolleyes: Or does it mean that the inferior puppy won't bring in enough certificates at shows and maybe spoil her reputation as a breeder with winner dogs. .... or am i missing the point completely???

I have read this thread with absolute dimay
Have I missed something or has Karen done something to upset you all. I am just a dog lover and show enthusiast. I read these posts and see a dog breeder answer a legitimate question openly and honestly and then see that person attacked for no apparent reason. I don't know any of you, I have no reason to defend anyone, but I see this thread degenerate into a slanging match because someone chooses to breed yearly. I mean, horror, I see this and more in my own breed all the time, our top breeder breeds every year sometimes twice a year. I have never heard anyone complain about the amount she is breeding. Surely the important thing is the care and aftercare that is put into each litter. And yes, this lasts a lifetime. This is the main reason I only have dogs, not bitches beacause I feel at the moment I could not commit to more. Has Karen proved such a bad breeder, it would appear not if her stats are correct after 20 years of breeding.  
I read champ dogs most days but do not post much. However, the injustice in this thread has forced me to offer my opinion.
Shame on you all, new people to this site will be horrified.

 

I hope that no-one is saying Karen is a bad breeder and I am certainly not. Of course in a perfect world all bitches would only produce 1 or 2 pups per litter and she would come into season every 2 years. That way a breeder would have to choose between those 2 pups and then there wouldn't be any rescue kennels at all, but unfortunatly for the unwanted, they don't, and there are. It's a fact of life sadly, but at the same time it has to be said, the majority of dogs in care appear to be crossbreeds, so thankfully someone somewhere is being carefull.

This is an emotional subject especially for a lot of folk on here who have given a home to a rescue and it is bound to raise certain questions which can look tetchy in the written word. Healthy debate is good for the soul and thought provoking..... So long may it change the world.

Hi Ottoman

>I have read this thread with absolute dimay

Ditto - as have several, although perhaps for differing reasons :)

>Have I missed something or has Karen done something to upset you all

Apart from scathing replies and slinging insults around rather than answer a couple of perfectly reasonable and politely asked questions  -  not in the least.

> our top breeder breeds every year sometimes twice a year. I have never heard anyone complain about the amount she is breeding

Has she been involved in the breed longer than 5 years?  Has she built a reputation based on consistantly producing stock of which the majority shown is worthy of competing at top level?  Does she breed to improve the breed or mainly with an eye for the pet market?   Is there a demand for her stock both for showing and future breeding by other reputable kennels?  There's a huge jump between comparing most breeders in any breed to those at the top of the ladder - certainly in numerically strong breeds :)

>Has Karen proved such a bad breeder, it would appear not if her stats are correct after 20 years of breeding

Karen's breeding of Dalmatians spans a max of four years - not 20  

>However, the injustice in this thread has forced me to offer my opinion.

You've lost me

>Shame on you all, new people to this site will be horrified

Us "oldies" are a bit shook up too :rolleyes: - but again methinks for different reasons ;)

regards, Teri

I have been lookin through the 3rd Quater BRS for HOunds and was astounded to see that in Rhodesian Ridgebacks there are nearly 3 times as many pups registered each quater as in my breed each year.

I have only ever met 3 as Pets when out and about, and wonder where the homes for such a large, and fairly strong in mind and body hound are found?

Think they're all in my town Barbara as here 45% of all dogs seems to be Staffies, 45 % Ridgebacks, and the other 10 % everything else!!

Seeing a fair amount of Ridgebacks around here these days too. I believe they are meant to have come a long way from the temperament issues that I believe (only perception, and am sure it was certain lines as these things usually are) they had in the 80s/90s - but I certainly hope that they're being responsibly bred and sold, as that's a hell of a lot of dog for a novice.

M.

Must admit I do like them, but they are not like most hound breeds in nature, a bit more like some of the working breeds, with more of a protective streak, not unlike a dobe or shephrd, and therefore require owners that know what they are about.

They are the only breed in my group that has ever lunged at me and my dogs at a chow, including ripping my bumbag apart at Three Counties in 2004, but individually when making friends in the ring in Group or stakes classes, especially the girls have been lovley.  they certainly could be ruined by the wrong owners and breeders.

The first ones I ever met (late 80's) when I still had my BSD was at Ringcraft, and the gentleman had a couple of males that were really steady in temperament around the other mainly small breeds, and were absolute softies around people.

I often see them at local shows and happily chat to the owners, usually with several other large hounds like Foxhounds and Ibizans ns Pharoahs.

Seeing a fair amount of Ridgebacks around here these days too. I believe they are meant to have come a long way from the temperament issues that I believe (only perception, and am sure it was certain lines as these things usually are) they had in the 80s/90s - but I certainly hope that they're being responsibly bred and sold, as that's a hell of a lot of dog for a novice.


Sadly here they are very much seen as a way of making money. :( Beween £600 and £800 a pup, no health tests done on parents. The market's getting flooded though and I know of many that's been stuck with Ridgeback pups for over 16 weeks. It's very worrying. Have come across a few bad tempered ones as well, but not really more than in any other breed bred indiscriminately. Have a friend who has one who is the softest dog imaginable. :)

Don't disagree with that at all, and think the phrase 'better the devil you know' is very valid when buying puppies. :D Was just surprised that you would consider anything above two litters a year bad, when you have (well justified) faith in a breeder who is a fair way above this number.

M.

>Now, I realise this may not be a popular viewpoint, and there are exceptions - in low numbered breeds for example. But anyone who breeds more than 2 litters a year in high producing breeds: labs, dallys, staffies for example - is simply adding to the problem of overcrowding in the breed and does not have the breeds best interests at heart.

I would't say harlie danes are bred in particularly high numbers though....? :)

Unfortunately you'd be wrong there - I believe in the last BRS the harlie bred litters outnumbered the fawns bred litters, and this is definitely a trend that's been leapt on by some commercial breeders, as it is perceived that there's money to be made and even the associated mismarks seem easy to sell. Blues are also very popular now, although strangely blacks often not so much.

Again, this is just discussion and don't have any issue with the breeder in question, who is breeding quality stock (not all harlie, as you know), health tests, is successful in the show ring and has gone to various lengths to bring in quality new lines. It's just a long way from your ideal, so in some ways am surprised you aren't trying to find a smaller breeder.

M.

even the associated mismarks seem easy to sell
I remember when merles went into the bucket!  A friend paid a lot of money (more than a well bred Rough Collie!) for a merle 4 years ago, and was on a waiting list!  AND she was encouraged to breed from her - reputable breeder too!  Times change.

Nowt wrong with selling them, in my opinion, if they've been bred well - but they should be endorsed.

PM me with the 'reputable breeder' Val, see if it matches my guess. ;)

M.

I'm the first to admit that what I know about breeding Danes would get lost on the head of a pin, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that merles were needed in a breeding programme to produce good-quality harlies.

Or was that one of my strange dreams?

Have a look here Jan for a bit more info:

http://www.chromadane.com/DrNeil.htm

Yes, you may get a better specimen to show, but it is not in the interest of the wider litter in my view.

M.

Crumbs, it's seriously complicated, isn't it?

This one's quite good fun too, a complicated subject done in a slightly more entertaining way:

http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/genetics/striptease.html

That does suprise me... knowing how expensive harlies are I wouldn;t have thought there were that big a market for them!

I wouldn't want to buy a pup from another breeder on this occasion - yes, she does breed more, but the good points outweigh the bad - and she has always been extremely supportive and helpful with Will. So I guess on this occasion I will have to compromise my ideals :D

I think people have seen the prices that harlies can command and think they'll have some of that. Of course, they don't get the same price, as they're not breeding the quality so the pups hang around and sell cheaper in the end, but a reasonably high price anyway and no shortage of buyers.

Am also guessing that as blacks are traditionally difficult to sell in Danes (never understand this, I love a nice one), more and more will keep going harlie/harlie or harlie/mismark, which of course brings its own problems. It's amazing the extent of mismarks which can arise from careless Dane breeding, but of course these are then just sold as 'rare' - and that's leaving aside the health problems.

M.

I have never really considered that the number of puppies is a true sign of a puppy farmer. I personally think it is more to do with:

1. Health checks, whether they are done or not

2. Whether or not they are willing and able to accept returned puppies if necessary or will help rescue if they can't take them back

3. Whether they offer lifetime backup and help to puppy owners

4. Number of litters the bitch has and at what age

5. Member of breed club and pups KC registered

6. Waiting list for puppies

Edited to add: Hadn't read the rest of this thread before posting this...

i also feel puppy farmers keep their pups in kennels--to me a good breeder rears their litter in their own home

Now there I would disagree.  Many excellent breeders kennel their dogs.,  This does not of course means that the dogs do not spend time in the house and that puppies are not reared at least in part in the house.

Can you imagine trying to rear a litter of great danes in the average house

It is all about care, reasons etc.

Some breeders have the facilities, and some even staff to do a good job of breeding and rearing several litters a year, and the room to take as many back as needed, most other small scale breeders would struggle with the requiremetns of more than one litter and their owners per year.

the breeders i know that have kenneled litters NEVER let them into the house!
i trust the average size house wouldnt keep and breed great danes

"i trust the average size house wouldnt keep and breed great danes "

I'm not a breeder but erm.... i have two danes and live in a semi-detached

I know that many excellent breeders kennel their dogs and I put pups out in the kennel at 4 weeks until two litters ago (of course they came into the house regularly). The I took a fit of the head staggers and decided to rear a litter entirely in the house. I was really pleased with the results and thought that the pups had a little extra confidence as well as a little extra undefinable something. So from now on mine will be completely house reared.

Can you imagine trying to rear a litter of great danes in the average house

Can be dome with a similar sized breed - but you don't have much house left at the end of it! :D

would struggle with the requiremetns of more than one litter and their owners per year.

I think you make a good point when you mention the requirements of the owners too. I find that I spend a lot of time with and on the phone to my new owners. I'm glad to do so and most of them end up good friends, but I don't think I'd have the mental energy for them all if I bred more frequently

i also found my house reared litter were almost housetrained when they left at 8 weeks as they were let in and out of the garden frequently.

I also found the house reared litters got the idea about housetraining. I keep my pups to 12 weeks and they were very close to clean when they left. One of the boys from the first house litter 'reverted' in his new home and became a bit of a problem with regard to cleanliness. I don't quite know what was going on there, but his problem was solved overnight by moving his sleeping quarters to a different room. His owners have others dogs, so perhaps there was an overlooked tiddle in the first room attracting him? But the rest of the owners reported their pups as completley clean within a couple of days. :)

I have always combined time in the house and outdoors with my litters from 4 weeks.  After all it would be just as bad if the pups couldn't cope with the world outside the house.

I tend to find that I put them out so I can clean their puppy pen, and then bring them in so I can clean their outside run.  Logistics in my house also mean that I can only manage a small indoor pen, but they can have a 10 foot x 12 foot outside one as well as the double kennel, another 10 x 5 feet area.

So when they are most active they go outside and during quieter times and for interaction with us humes they are brought in.

Pups by 7 weeks are free to come in and out of the kitchen, and I don't get any indoor poos, and only the odd pee :D

Hi Mel,

I agree those points are all very valid but (*generalising on the trend - not specific to anyone on this thread*) :-

some puppy farmers have jumped on the bandwagon of health tests to cover that side of things and let's face it, anyone breeding can say they offer lifetime back-up or will happily have a dog back but refuse to do so or have moved on when help is actually needed.

Being known whether for good or bad to the relevant Breed Club(s) is more important IMO than being a member of one (sometimes behind doors' politics deters perfectly good breeders from continuing with their membership ;) ).

I also think it's important not just how many puppies are produced but within what time frane and for what reasons, i.e. to improve the breed, introduce new lines, keep one to add to their own show/working stock etc. or simply producing for the pet market time and again.

Regards Teri :)

Being known whether for good or bad to the relevant Breed Club(s) is more important IMO than being a member of one (sometimes behind doors' politics deters perfectly good breeders from continuing with their membership  ).

Glad you said this Teri - I haven't been a member of any Breed Clubs for the last 6 or 7 years due to the politics involved - and this is after serving on committees of breeds clubs and general show societies for years.  In some breeds (normally the numerically small ones) the breed club is more about who's in control of the judges list than the benefit of the breed ;)

Debs

Teri ...mine was a list of ALL things , not to be taken as a one OR another one ;) so someone who health tests and doesn;t comply with the other points would be suspect ;)

>mine was a list of ALL things

  you mean nobody can have a longer list .....   

I wasn't reading the points individually - just adding a couple of extra and a twist ;)
 

>you mean nobody can have a longer list ..... 

Nope you daft bat ....it is MY list ......why would *I* include other peoples criteria? :D

"Daft bat" - moi, ME, as in yours truly tsk, world's gone crazy :D

:p :p :p

I agree, there are plenty of people that breed one off litters and won't accept responsibility for the puppies once sold.

My dogs statistic fails every single one of the above mentioned criteria,as i thought it would do anyway so its no great surprise.Its amazing how easily led you can get when you go to a puppy farm.I was taken in hook line and sinker.Im not usually so stupid but oh god was i having a dumb day when i bought my last dog. :rolleyes:

I completely agree with the points listed above, however I do have to say that number of litters can sometimes be an indicator for me, especially if the breed is numerically rather small or one that is difficult to own. I wouldn't necessarily label them a puppy farmer - more a puppy producer, breeding for the mass market as oppose to breeding to improve the breed etc, even if they do the relevant health tests.

Bedruthen

Given your name are you in Cornwall or Devon?  I was shocked to find a lady in Devon breeding more than three litters a year of pure bred and mixed breed puppies.  The latest puppies are showing signs of weakness (having been born to bitches bred on every season).  I wonder if we are talking about the same breeder?

Im from Cornwall and there is a place called Bedruthen stepts which is on the coast.Lovely place to live too :)

is that near to newquay?

Just a bit further round from Newquay but i live about 7 miles away from Newquay.Its the nearest town to the rural village we live in. :D

i think ive been there. is it near to the doggie hhotels,Malamar & white lodge?

Hi Guiness

I am from Cornwall too but still don't know if the original poster called Bedruthen is but I would guess so.  Do you go to shows?