the ban should never have happened in the first place,it was a silly idea rushed through by politicians with no idea of dogs,pushed by the gutter press after a couple (all be it nasty) attacks on people.i believe if the breed had been a kc breed then it would never have happened.

I agree with JG, this is what is happening with Staffies now. They are such a common dog, there there are so many breeders doing the same thing with them as they did with pitbulls. I only hope that the government stays out of it and doesn't add them to the DDA.

The problem is not with the dog, but with the breeders. I am sure that for the number of bad pits out out there, they were more than doubled by the well bred ones who were nice family pets. I am not surprised that these owners fear that their staffies are next, something has to be done about breeding.

Yes, I am sure that all of the govering bodies out there are perfectly aware of this going on, but it is not just the Staffie it is happening with many other breeds of dogs that are being badly breed.  The powers that be are doing their utmost to stop this kind of breeder.

That is why it is so very, very, important to buy from reputable breeders and buy KC reg dogs, that way all breeds of dogs can be as safe as they can be. There are enough Staffie (for one example) breeders out there with good reputations to stop this breed of dog in particular to ever having to face the same fate as the Pitt Bull.

And that is why the country as a whole must report unsavoury breeders to preserve these dogs.

The point is if the Governing bodies were doing more and paying attention in the first place the Pitbull would have been given the same chance as any other breed as apposed to being banned and the breed suffering instead of the people who are neglecting the breed. Banning them only does one of two things it either,makes the people who do fight dogs want one because they are banned, OR they will turn their attention to another breed which will be the Staffie !!! :D Therefor the Staff is at risk because of this and COULD be the next on the list. We all know the benefits of buying a KC dog from a reputable breeder, and surely given the chance the Pitbull could be bred by reputable people and actually be given the oppertunity to show what a great breed they CAN BE. Everybody knows the potential problems but it's been said before the Staff was bred for exactly the same reason and just look at how the breed has progressed ;)

It's said the Bengal tiger kills more people thean the Siberian tiger so should we eradicate all the Bengals and just leave the siberians ?? It worries me because not only am i a dog lover but an animal lover, we are treading a slippery slope in deciding what we think is the best breeds of animal for society.(sorry for another silly comparison) ;)

You say it is mainly staffie owners that get worried about this, and i think it is with just cause. We are watching a breed very similar to our own being outcasted. :(

>The point that everyone seems to be missing here is that Pitt Bulls were not banned for biting someone, as you >say all dogs and breeds can do that, there would be no dogs if that were what this post is really about. Everyone >keeps swinging this thread around repeating that various dogs have bitten them.

So HOW do you explain that the DDA was rushed through when people, newspapers, TV etc were complaining about the breed and shouting that something "had to be done about them" after the attacks by PitBulls on Ruckshana Khan and Frank Tempest?????????

This was a problem that the powers that be had been aware of for sometime, we all know that the newspapers can cause panic amongst the public, but the men suits behind the decisons is never pushed by public scare mongaring.  The terrible attacks on these people were just the final straw on the camels back! The government do not make flippent descisions. And usually have no interest in these matters. If you check newspapers for decades, Alsations, Dobbermans, Rottis have all had very bad pres. Dogs have frequently been in the newspapers for terrible attacks on man.  These 2 examples only syked up the public. the public have been syked up many times, over many breeds.  The DDA was pushed through because of previous problems. It was to stop further breeding.

The loveable pet Pitt Bulls were unfortunately sacrificed because of what bad breeders did.

>This was a problem that the powers that be had been aware of for sometime, we all know that the newspapers >can cause panic amongst the public, but the men suits behind the decisions is never pushed by public scare >mongaring.  The terrible attacks on these people were just the final straw on the camels back! The government do >not make flippent descisions. And usually have no interest in these matters. If you check newspapers for decades, >Alsations, Dobbermans, Rottis have all had very bad pres. Dogs have frequently been in the newspapers for >terrible attacks on man.  These 2 examples only syked up the public. the public have been syked up many times, >over many breeds.  The DDA was pushed through because of previous problems. It was to stop further breeding.

That's your opinion, I wouldn't agree. :) Nor would many of the anti DDA campaigners I dare say. The DDA was very much a knee jerk reaction to the well publicised attacks, and the Pitbull WAS singled out simply because it was NOT a KC breed, so it was so much easier to do something than if the government had had a much larger portion of the population and the KC up against them.

Okay I just phoned my ex who is one of the wellknown anti DDA people, who did most of the write ups etc at the time (and still do). He said that yes, although the RSPCA had been wanting to ban PitBulls before the attacks on RK and FT, it really WAS those that attacks that swayed the government. And when Kenneth Baker spoke in parliament and the act was agreed upon in just one sitting, he DID mention RK as one of the reasons, saying "anybody who saw that poor young girl in her hospital bed could not fail to wnat to take action" or something similar.

So there you go. :)

In that case a lot of breeds should be banned from coming into this country, like the Bully Kutta and Presa Canaria - both of which have recently been brought in unless I'm mistaken. How about Cane Corse, Akita and Shar-Pei - all were used for fighting at some point in their history. ALL bull breeds were bred to be aggressive and to fight, bait or attack. How about a chow chow? I once saw some idiot set a pitbull on somebody's chow thinking it would be funny - till his dog got nailed by the chow before it could even get a bite in. All the plonkers who used to have pitbulls as a status symbol now have DDB, Neo's or some kind of cross of those breeds - oh great... same irresponsible owners, just bigger dogs.

The people who fight dogs still have pitbulls now and will use any staff, english bull, Irish staff, game bred staff or whatever to breed into a fighting machine they watch fight and but bets on. Dog fighting is a big underworld business and banning one breed hasn't changed that. However, like I've said, I can't see any point in reintroducing pitbulls to the general public - they are still out there and you can get one easily if you really want one.

DDA was a joke. some people got bitten by pitbulls - the press made a big hoohah - the government took a kneejerk stance worthy of Tony Blair. Nobody talked of banning rottweillers (nor should they) and if I remember we had several attacks and at least one child killed by rotties around the same time.

Phoebe you make some good points here and yes there was a girl killed by her friend's two Rotties at around the time the press were having their field day on dogs.  I can remember in the 70s (sadly, yes that old) Labradors making the press from time to time re attacks as well as Alsations (as they were called then)

I just want your opinion on why when given a choice that those who use dogs to fight chose the PBT?

No, simply, they should not been banned nor should the Dogo Argentino, Fila Brasiliero or Japanese Tosa. The governemnt should stricten the ownership of them, the problem is, the reputation goes before them, this reputation needs to be changed. In New York they have changed the name to lessen the aggressive sound of the Pit Bull Terrier. I am someone who beleives the American Staff and the Pit Bull are one and the same so in my opinion, if they are legalized they should be called the American Staffordshire Terrier and also, be registered with the Kennel Club to make sure that legitimate breeders are set up as well as breed clubs. Puppies should only be given to people with alot of experience, in my opinion they should only go to people who have previously owned Bull or Molloser breeds as they will understand how to control a dog, no-one should be able to own one as there very first dog, and sorry to be a snob but they should not go to people who arr quite clearly common idiots who will use the dog as a status symbol, house checks of possibly owners should be enforced and looking into the past of the new owners should be done!!

Wasn't it common idiots with lots of experience that managed to get the dog banned in the first place?  Who would decide who is an idiot and who isn't?  Some of idiots are clearly masters of disguise

>>I just want your opinion on why when given a choice that those who use dogs to fight chose the PBT?<<

They don't necessarily - it's very difficult to tell a big staffie, an Irish staff, American staff, or even some staffie crosses from a 'pitbull'. The pitbull I knew years ago was acutally from two imported parents who were both purebred American Staffs. I'd have an American Staff tomorrow if they were legal here.

Pitbull is just the generic term for them in the USA and if you take a look around some of the pitbull breeders online you will see many different strains of pitbull from around 40 pounds and 18" up to 130 pounds and 24" and anything in between depending on bloodlines. Even the conformation of the dogs vary from bloodline to bloodline and can range from a lanky looking dog to a wide, squat dog.

The bald truth is that Am Staffs and our own country's lovely little Staffies are just the result of less than 100 years of selective breeding from 'pitbulls'.

Oops - forgot to add to further confuse things an AKC American Stafford can also be dual  registered as a pitbull with the ADBA, the UKC and probably several other of the kennel clubs out there.

Have a look at this it should clear up the confusion

Staff or pitbull ?

did you see the pictures of teh English Setters.  Wouldn't recognise the second one as one, though the showdog seemed very overdone to British eyes?

I noticed people saying if the Pitbull ban was droped then the wrong type of people would get them.WAKE UP,Pitbulls are everywere,and anyone that wants one can get one just as easyly as any other breed.So any of wrong type of people,have already got them.But know because of the ban honest people who would have bred for good temperment above all else,after heatth of coarse can not do so.So now the type of breeding of these dogs is going to worsen the breed.So a ban has only made the breed more populair than ever.People are now charging around £500.00-£600.00 a pup for a Pitbull.

>WAKE UP,Pitbulls are everywere,and anyone that wants one can get one just as easyly as any other breed.

But how many of them are in reality just leggy staffies or crosses? Sold as PBTs to make loadsa money. There used to be LOADS of PitBulls where I live, loads and loads, and I've watched people out "working" them at night killing cats, but for years now I've not seen a single one, just staffies and staffy crosses everywhere.  They definitely have virtually disappeared in my part of the world, and it isn't because they are undergound as people around here really don't give a **** whether they follow the law or not.

Dont know if you saw them or not but there is alot of links to storys etc on the left hand side on of them is about DOG ATTACKS, basicly its lots of stories about how other dogs can be agressive not just the Bull terrier breeds. It's very interesting. Although the Dog fighting part 1 and 2 is not pleasant :(

Ok You've got me!  I started off an avid none supporter of ever bringing back the Pit Bull, but after reading everyones pro's and con's which is what debate is all about.  I have come to the conclusion that it was wrong to ban a whole breed of dog for the misdemeners of others. Especially as it has not made a great change to underground fighting. (It's those pictures that got me, there really isn't much difference between the breeds is there?) Maybe in time things will change. And the ******** that abuse these dogs will get what they deserve!

This was discussed on another forum and this is what I think about pit bull banning :(

No I don't think the breed should be banned but I think byb's should be.... Anydog is good it just depends how you breed them, and raise, socialize them ect... If Joe blow was not breeding his pet dogs and left it up to the responsible breeders to breed the best of the best then this would not happen. Puppies are and should be evaluated, temperment testes ect by their breeders before being placed with their knew owners. Their parents before ever being bred are evaluated as well for temperments, herditary/genetic defects ect thats why a well bred dog is worth so much because there is so much going into breeding them. Now if a back yard breeder is breeding them they really have no care of the welfare of the dog or how these puppies are really going turn out, cause if they did then they would not be breeding their pets in the first place.... I don't believe in banning the breed its not their fault. Why ban something when it is us humans that made them the way they are. You no taking on a pit or even a molasser breed that you have to put alot of time into them being your basic obedience and socialization from an early age being a must, with that being said that goes for all dogs to have a well adjusted dog....

If you own more then one dog they get that pack thing going, one bark they all bark, one chases they all chase.. Kids and dogs should never ever be left alone at any given time things can go wrong so fast..... I was reading someplace about a child that got attacked by a pit, they put the pit down and did an autopsy on it to find out what made the pit attack the child. Well they realized the child stuffed a pencil way down the pits eardrum (that pit went thro alot before attacking that child that must have hurt) now if the parents never left them unattended this never would have happened, a good dog was pts that day and a child was bit...

I beleive the Pitbull is the king of the canine world,they are just 100% dog,and love their family.I find these to be the move loveing breeds there is.Also I think they are one of the few breeds that are a true multi purpose breed.One of the best working breeds,one of the best family breeds,an indoor or outdoor breed.Thery excell at anything they are put to,and this has been proven in the U.S.A. were the have Pitbulls that are title'd in all sports and trails.They even excell at Sch,and that is not an easy sport to master.They are at the top levels in all area's.

>Lyssa That is why it is so very, very, important to buy from reputable breeders and buy KC reg dogs, that way all breeds of dogs can be as safe as they can be. There are enough Staffie (for one example) breeders out there with good reputations to stop this breed of dog in particular<

Oh what a hairy fairy cloud 9 perfect world you, and reading this, many others live on, GET REAL for heavens sake.
Are you in the country or something, generaly know as middle class? ONLY a TINY, tiny minority of Staffs born in the UK are registered with KC and if you look through some of these posts you will see that they are squared up to each other in the shows, pre-ring entry. Staff breeding, especially over this past two years is a cottage industry on the estates, only a tiny, tiny minority of buyers have any idea what a pedigree is and non of them know or care what the KC is they are bred for fighting to kill.
Below are normal everyday life events common throughout this vast city, London.
Local small park 5 dogs known, suspected many others, to have been killed by staffs this year al in daylight and with ordinary people passing,, one with its head bitten off. Thefts of all kinds of dogs for baiting, many everyday of all breeds ages and kinds, common knowledge.
Dogs stolen at gunpoint, especially staffs, several reports per week and increasingly the most common crime all over London.
Latest trend over this past 6 months, staffs are the most desirable present/fashion statement/status for age group 10 upwards and these kids want them fighting ASP, the more dogs the staff kills or maims in the parks or elsewhere the greater the prestige, staffs killing other dogs in the park is the fastest growing sport for the under 16's, something to do with some rapper doing a sound track and video with 2 staffs on it.
I have been going to secluded parts of Epsom forest for ALL my excesses for well over a year, its simply not safe or even close to safe in any local park I know.
Staff breeding on estates is probably the main current black economy and it is growing like a virus, £300 to £400 per pup for people without anythinmg but benefits, dog bred every season from first (if it survives) to the last GET REAL, THESE are the facts STOP projecting your fantasy, it is make believe.
GET REAL Lyssa and others get in touch with the REAL world of dogs for heavens sakes your posts are from another world your perceptions have NO touch of reality of the real world at all except for a TINY proportion of dogs on the UK, so small in fact they would not even count in any statistical figers -anymore comments from other cities???

I live in a large'ish new town where we have lots of, on the face of it at least 'NEDs' (non-educated deliquents).    There does seem to be lots of Staff here.  I cannot say that I have heard of any organised fighting but then I wouldn't expect to hear about it not moving in those circles.  Correct me if I'm wrong but what you are saying is that people are taking their Staffs to public areas specifically to attack other people's pets?  I have never heard of anything like that here or seen anything like that here.  It might be happening where you are but I don't think it is commonplace like you suggest.  How many dogs have actually been killed?  Can you provide a link to the news article?  I am very interested

I meant I go out to Epping forset.

News article???? they dont bother with things like that its 'a dog fight' organised fighting goes on but thats hidden I am talking everyday things, some delibratly to fight others see it as nothing more than what dogs do, I am luck I live in poplar and can travell to epping or more often through blackwall and into kent.

NEWS?? newspapers??? good heavens they dont even bother putting hold ups of any kind at gunpoint in the locals anymore dog fights dont mean anything to the press.
Tell you what, if you asked anyone have they seen any articles about dog fights in a local paper they would think you had a mental condition.
YES I am serious, peoples lives are being destroyed and people are dying all over the cities with drugs, crime etc, they dont even bother putting that in the paers, its to common and accepted.
Do you SERIOUSLY think people care about dogs enough to put a dog fight in a paper when someone is shot or seriously injured MANY times per week in cities all over the UK, get real, who cares about dogs or fights, thats the real world of, I think, most cities, of course its not local that is real, dogs life, London, normal in other words.

I'm not so naive that I don't know generally what's going on in London.  I do know about the gun crime that's rife and Murder Mile etc.  Drugs industry seems to fuel a lot of the violent crime in the London.  I have friends and family who live in London so I am real. Dog fights happen every where but what you are talking about is ordinary people's dogs getting kille and heads bitten off.  To me I would have thought that would make some sort of news as it wasn't that long ago that dog snatching in London was newsworthy because of it's increase (something else that apparently raises quick bucks for drugs.

That is terrible snowy05! I never knew that UK has such terrible things happening. I never even knew dog fighting still exists (perhaps I have been living in a dream world). I knew it happens somewhere far in the USA, but never here in Europe. Every time I wisit your country (I'm from the continental Europe) I only meet nice, well behaved dogs (Staffys included) and I never thought walking in the park could be dangerous......

Thats the common thing in London, I have some mates south of the river and its the same there. The main increase has been this last 12 months, but breeding in the way I stated is increased MANY fold this past 12 months, it is the current greatest economy in certain circles, why not its legal and all they want is money, its like breeding battery hens.

I am a Londoner bred and born, glad I don;'t live there any more if things have got that bad, though I rather think there is some exageration going on here.  My visits over the years have been pretty trouble free and uneventful with my dogs, and dog owning freinds seem happy enough and happy on their walks.

Barbara - I'm just on the edge (just outside the M-25 by 5 miles) - of the east end - we do have a couple of deprived-area overflows from London in the area - and yes, you'll find lots of staffies pulling along NEDs, but I have never, ever, heard of this sort of mass-attack - and I do hear a lot of stories and "urban myths" - and believe me, I've not heard this one before now!

I think someone has an over-vivid imagination :)

Margot

I live in BRistol on an Estate that is probably about 25% council and there are a lot of NEDs and Staffs too, but again not a major problem,. though they do look right prats being dragged along by their 40 pound dogs on great oversize studded collars. 

Don't really think it makes them look hard if they can't manage a dog of that size, as I walk my five 40 pound dogs nicely on the lead together I have a little smile to myself.

>I think someone has an over-vivid imagination

And also deserves this week's Wooden Spoon award! ;) :D

You're absolutely right.  I think I had better get on with some real work in my real world :)

Ory

There are good parts and bad parts just like there are good people and bad people wherever you go.  Please don't be put off

Oh for heaven's sake Snowy05 - in your dreams (and in many people's nightmares!)

Yes, there are problems with staffies - but to say that there are gangs of 10 year olds roaming around every park in the country, with packs of ill-bred staffies biting the heads off other people's dogs .....do you honestly think that no newspaper would pick up on such a fact?

Yes, some kids (too many) will allow their staffies to attack other dogs - but you make it sound as if it is "acceptable" behaviour - which of course it most certainly is not.

Just grow up!

Margot

Will you read my lpost again, I am talking London not all over the counrty as you misquoted me, and I did not say a staff bit another dogs heads off I DID say a dogs head was bitten off in one fight in a local park, by your writing you have no idea of what I am talking about or life in a city, unless you are in an exclusive area where hairy fairl cloud nine ideas might prosper, get real.

Well you should explain yourself a bit better then and not sensationalise isolated incidents

Chez zwa, I am talking real everyday life of which you have no perception or clearly experience and dont forget (or you probably dont know) the people you call 'neds' would also call you a 'ned'.
In the real world, or better put, in the world of reality, differ3ent sub groups have different values and those in turn have different behavioural responses to the same situation, you obviously dont have even enough experience to understand that universal principle.

They'd call me a NED because that's precisely what they are ;) You sound like a 'street' person who thinks his is the only world and everyone else is naive and ignorant.  Fortunately I do live in the real world.  The type of activities you describe are thankfully in little worlds within the larger one.

you said >Local small park 5 dogs known, suspected many others, to have been killed by staffs this year al in daylight and with ordinary people passing,, one with its head bitten off.

Did they catch these people or dog?  Which park was this?

Okay guys, I'm a bit confused here..... what is a NED? I understand though that you have good and bad people everywhere, good and bad dog owners as well. That's why I think it does not really depend on the breed, it's mostly about how you train them. Unfortunately sometimes all the wrong people decide to buy a breed that needs a careful and experienced approach.

Chez Awa's definition further up:
'NEDs' (non-educated deliquents).   

Did who 'catch' them for heavens sakes man - have you no idea at all, who is interested, the same dogs, people frequent the parks, a dog fight is only a dog fight, no matter what the end result is, I might as well have written to the wind for what you seem to have taken in, have you got some cockeyed notion that the police in London take any notice, what are they going to do? 'invstigate' a dog fight??? "His started it, my dog finished it", have you got some cloud none idea of the Met running round to stop dogs fighting in parks???
Crown Prosecution has a limited budget and they would not spend it on attempting to prove whose dog started a fight and whose dog merely defended itself, how old are you?
If the ploice started getting involved with such things there would be a public outcry about wasting police resources, they have enoigh to do expecialy since 7-7 or dont you know about that where you are? sure I am streetwise and beyond.
Just to add a little bit to your limted knowledge, if a dog is stolen it is classed as 'stolen property' it has no other status and if someones purse is robbed in the street THAT is of more importance to the police NOT 2 dogs fighting, the outcome of a dog fight is nothing to do with it, I keep saying get real, does not look like much hope of that.

It's exactly the sort of thing the RSPCA gives lots of publicity to, though ... if they have evidence that it actually happens. ;)

And the Dog Warden Service would certainy be interested.  Dogs are property, but anyone willfully damaging property is commiting an offence, so I would expect the victims of such attacks to at least report them to the Police, and therefore they would appear as statistics which are a matter of public record.  Also there is the Issue of Anti Social Behaviour which the Police are being made to address, and this would certainly fall into that remit judgng by the letter I and other residents ahve received.

Bad as it was why do you think the Dangerous Dog Act was rushed onto the statute books, because of the criminal use of these dogs, not so much because of the two well publiscised attacks on people.

Well what seems to be filtering through your posts now is that the fights are local to local groups who are testing their dogs against each other.  Dogs getting attacked aren't for example families taking the family dog for a run with the children. 

This reminds me of the thread by our multi-personaed friend about dogs getting shot by wardens, and 'slashed to ribbons' by deer in Windsor Great Park. ;)

Does a bit :D

> Dogs are property, but anyone willfully damaging property is commiting an offence, <

You are talking about THE LAW, if two dogs fight it is a dog fight, do you realize how difficult it is to prove it was deliberate?? dogs fight do you seriously think> I mean SERIOUSLY< that Crown Proscution is going to spend thousand MANY thousands, to prove that the fight was delieberatly caused? it might be 'negligence', all money that would be spent on a dig fight is beter spent on convictiong a mugger, there is NOT enough money for both!!! negligence is a civil offence.
Dog Wardens have no powers of any kind, the most part of a dog wardens work is picking up strays and some of them  microchip dogs, they have no more powers than you or me.RSPCA, they go for soft touches, go to search and see peoples experience of the RSPCA, rich and useless.
Certain groups, not in London, as far as the individuals are concerned they are out in the park with their dog and if a fight starts with a family dog, well tough, also many of them are families, the staff has been promoted, often on here, as a nice little family dog.
The fact that one family has a different perception of dog owning to another is again nothing more than different people have a different perception and response to the same situation with tow families with different values and possibly life styles.

>do you seriously think> I mean SERIOUSLY< that Crown Proscution is going to spend thousand MANY thousands, to prove that the fight was delieberatly caused?

The tabloids would, though! ;)

Newspaper interest.

You can test that out for yourself, come Monday just call the editor of any tabloid and ask them if they are intersted in doing an article on dogs fighting in local city parks - I mean cities not rural, see what they say.
Occasionaly if there is nothing much happeing in the news they MIGHT give a couple of paragraphs once every ten years or so, dogs fighting and or killing in parks has almost no public interest and thats what sells newspapers.

My guess is if you OR anyone else calls the tabloids on Monday, they will simply say not interested.