Now, now Margot, TSK, TSK!  don't take advantage of red wine and dangly bits :D - you're just not reading this right :rolleyes:
As *someone* :rolleyes: is going to great (and familiar) lengths to explain

>you have given 3 actions which make the whole.

Get the dog, zap the dog, job done :(     Oh, nearly forgot - the REWARD bit, silly me, - $$$$$ of course.

It's just phraseology - now pass the wine :D :D :D

>I DEFINITELY need another glass of red......I'm sorry - but what you are saying is just absolute testicles!<

Thats meanigless, what is?  you asked if a head ach, the result of booze, was a negtive reward, it is not, it is a negative puishment, try and be a little clear, absolute testicles is a silly comment and simply means nothing.

Well that means that thee and me are both talking a load of rubbish, and I for one, am going to my bed - now tell me, is that a negative reward or postive punishment?

'ELL'S TEETH...I need a blinking BOTTLE after reading through all this balony!!! RFLAO!!!

>If tomorrow morning I have a headache because I have rewarded myself with too many glasses, is that NEGATIVE REWARD ?<

No lokismum, it is a positive punishment.

Ignore the words negative and positive. Just use 'reward' and its opposite, 'punishment'.

NOOOO    It can't be   after all, he does say ................What does this mean below?

>"This wouldnt be weasel words for the dreaded e-collars would it"< 

Mind you, weasel words/lawyer/politician/conman (did I say that???)

:) :)

Passing the wine box around (I think we're gonna need more that 1 bottle between us ;0)

Do you think it might be a good idea to let someone look after your dog tonight, I mean its not fair on a dog to have someone - well not quite right in their thinking - I mean would the dog be safer, just for tonight, at a neighbours and let them bring him back in the morning.
I mean if you cannot relate to own species whilst imbibing how to think the dog sees it, he will feel trapped! he will be ok next door, I am sure they understand things there.

I think it's time to call in the Psychiatrist...or any other 'ists' I can think of!

Methinks the sadists are here already :rolleyes:  Where's the Administs :D

Don't know about sadists ;)

I think someone's been reading Psychology 101 and gone and got all confused - bless! :D :D :D :D :D   - and it ain't me ;) ;)

............................or maybe I've wandered into a parallel universe where everything looks the same but isn't

One thing I do know...

My dogs work for treats and praise with waggy tails and excitement :D  there's no way a Bedlington would work for punishment, uh-uh not no how!, not no way! - never going to happen! :D :D :D

DobermanLord,

Your dog bit you because you interrupted an extremely rewarding and pleasurable behaviour :(  in his highly aroused state he reacted in the only way he knew, he bit.  Believe me if he'd meant to do some serious damage you would be reporting broken bones as well as skin ;)  How would you have reacted in his position?? ;) ;)

You now know there are some areas where his training could be improved ;) 
1. He needs to learn that humping cushions is not acceptable (and possibly needs to not be around such stimulating items for a while ;) :) )
2.  His bite inhibition needs working on, he bit too hard and caused damage, if he'd had a softer mouth (ie. learned some bite control) he wouldn't have hurt you so much ;)  THE BITE STOPS HERE

Hope this helps :)

Tantrum said 'There is no such thing as negative reward digger or positive reward.'

Who says so?  It's a key part of operant conditioning......

Brufus Skinner said so Digger, he coined the terminology which you, for reasons known only to you, dont know let alone understand, but insist that terms exist which do not exist in operant conditioning.
The thing is its no big deal except you write 'advising' people to use them and some people are vulnerable enough to listen to you, yet you do not know what they are, so how many dogs have suffered as a result. I think that you should reconsider posting advie to anyone who asks questions here Digger.
I mean this is ultra basic stuff and you have not even got that right, let alone 'advise' people across the internet and over a few bottles of plonk, dogs will suffer as a result!

There are the 4 parts of operant conditioning which you mentioned, they are:
1. Positive Reinforcement
2. Negative Reinforcement
3. Positive Punishment
4. Negative Punishment

They are all reinforcers and do not mean a treat or anything specific at all.

There is NO - "negative reward" or "positive reward"

Margot, is your dog safely next door yet?

Welcome to the twilight world...

I came on here tonight for some lighthearted banter..........what do I get? A major tantrum :D

Operant: Involving the modification of behaviour by the reinforcing of inhibiting effect of its own consequences. (Instrumental conditioning)

An item of behaviour that is not a response to a prior stimulus, but something which is initially spontaneous, which may reinforce or inhibit recurrence of that behaviour. - Operant (which means for those who have lost the thread/plot -  being at work.

To put my feelings into "Laymans terms".......Margot, pass the wine box, you are totally correct in passing judgement and summing up "tantrums" posts as testicles. Ie - either of the 2 oval organs that produce  sperm in men and other male mammals, enclosed in the scrotum, behind the penis Also called "Testis"

IMHO, the above "terminology" can mean whatever you want it to mean. There is no right or wrong explanation.

Eg, If you stand on my toe and I headbutt you, you're not going to do it again in hurry, but if you stand on my toe and I give you a large Whisky, you are going to be keen to do it again!

Perfect Politician talk, as it can be very ambiguous................and no, tantrum I don't think that you are a Politician because even the most offensive Politicians can make themselves understood and are basically literate.

Burrhus Frederic Skinnner - American Behaviourist Psychologist - Promoted the view that the proper aim of Psychology should be to predict behaviour and hence be able to control it - I can't quite see where it says you should not "treat" your dog!

Maybe that's just my very naive "take" on it. IMHO, if you could predict every situation, you would never have the need for "behaviourists". Because you could predict everything before it happened :)

Shame you're not "vulnerable enough" Tantrum, to listen to Digger...............YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING :rolleyes:

>and no, tantrum I don't think that you are a Politician

Nor me HP - more likely an electrician (with a thesaurus fetish - perhaps ought to have invested in the UK version though)  :( no offence intended to "normal" electricians as modern society knows them

>Shame you're not "vulnerable enough" Tantrum, to listen to Digger...............YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING

Well said!  Teri  ;)

Would hate to be one of "Tantrums" dogs..............you wouldn't know where you were........bit like being one of the "posters" on this thread. Except a million times worse.....seeing as dogs don't do "human gobbledygook"

Personally, I believe that "Tantrum" is a WUM sent to entertain us all and "liven up" what was going to be a very dull "Saturday night" :P

I enjoyed it.........anyway ;)

I have heard negative and positive thrown around in the thread, but unfortunately for the poor dog it has been only negative.  First negative
was removal of the pillow, not for Dlord but the dog.  Negative no.2 was the smack, punch, whatever after the bite.  Third negative the dog still has a need with no relief.  Fourth negative is this thread for nothing constructive has been discussed to arrive at some positives.  Well, I can think of one, get the dog a girlfriend.  Not always easy and creates another dilemma, more stray dogs in the world.  The dogs have biological needs that one-way or another will get satisfied.  Have you ever lost a dog, a dog that is intact perhaps?  Don't be surprised if he's shacked up across town taking care of some needs.  If the pillows are out, and the girlfriend is out, looks like it has to be the London Times.  Shame it can't be the NY Times, because in my opinion it deserves the same treatment.

So, I'll stick by my guns with my statement prior, if you have no intent to breed your dog, get 'em fixed early.  People don't take the stray dog situation serious enough.  Cheap commercial kibble feeds have already exploded the dog population to unbelievable numbers.  No wonder veterinary clinics are popping up on every street corner.  Next is the wrong attitude that my dog won't be "macho" if he loses 'em.  Silly thinking, if you want an aggressive male dog, the behavior can be learned, with or without them.
Your dog isn't any less macho by getting fixed, and you won't have smelly pillows.  Bitches in heat are another problem; who wants a bunch of stray mutts hanging around their door licking their chops every time she goes into heat.  Your male is no less a male and your bitch no less a bitch when being altered.  You want a stud dog, you need to do the "positive" thing and let the dog be stud.  You want a bitch to whelp puppies, then you let her breed.  But again, if you have no intention of breeding your dogs, any you don't neuter, and you don't allow their needs to be satisfied, then you yourself are to blame for the pending "negatives".

Morning people :D :D :D

I see it continued in the same vein after I went to bed last night :) - Charlie quite enjoyed your intervention!

Tantrum my dogs were quite happily snoozing away (all 6 of them) when I went to bed so I do trust you lost no sleep on their account :)
Three glasses of wine hardly turns me into a hapless harriden - only when I see the english language being mangled in such a manner :) !

Looks like being a lovely day - dogs all been walked, mist rising over golf course, slight tang of autumn in the air, leaves colouring on the trees.  And I don't have a hangover :D

Margot

>only when I see the english language being mangled in such a manner<

Well you cant keep away from condeming a good half of the regulars who post here can you- the mangled english language you refer to is the same terminolgy and theory they ( many of the regulars) use all the time on here and they all claim to use it when training their dogs and they all tell complete strangers who come here that is what they must do.
Lindsay must feel awfull to see you ridicule it, thats what she uses all the time, mind you she does seem to keep to a cup of cocoa at most.
Maybe you could see her as a role model and not and end up, with half a dozen other wiz kids on here, leaving the indelible signature of the isolated binge drinker across the net.

OOOH - still here Dennis - sorry Tantrum - and living up to your current nom de plume :)

Of course the mangling of the english language on this board annoys me - but it really gets my goat when couched in psycho babble gobbledegook by those who perpetrate the belief that they know better than the rest of us!

And personal insults about my alcohol consumption go straight over my head -  I've been insulted by better masters of insult than you :D

Margot

Lokismum Sat eve - 10-29PM---

>If I get up, go and bring myself another glass of wine to drink logistics <

Sat eve - 10-40PM

>I DEFINITELY need another glass of red......<

What you do not realize Margot is that no one except maybe 1 in a thousand or so, ever thing about alcohol at all, ever, let alone write about it on a dog board.I cant think of anyone I know who needs booze at night let alone have it as priority in the morning AND then write about booze on, of all places, a dog board.

Sunday 7AM --

>Three glasses of wine hardly turns me into a hapless harriden <

That statement of this morning - its called 'denial' I have seen it on TV sometimes. Last thoughts and corresponding behaviour at night - first thoughts and behaviour (writing about it) in the morning.

> I've been insulted by better masters of insult than <

I am not insulting anyone, those are your words I pasted, 'insult' maybe what 'you feel' but that is different from any intent or anything I said.
Surely you must be able to see what everyone else can see  - its called 'denial' and I am offering insight, thats help not insult.
You are not alone as a drinker here in cyberspace, anyone could see your internet counterparts last night, maybe you could all form a little group now its in the open,that would be a first step away from the abyss. Try doing it for the dogs to begin with, as an initial motivation.

OK then, Dennis, here's your new Crusade:  get Margot off the booze :D

Would also point out that when I first posted, at 7.30-ish, I had already walked our 6 dogs (2 at a time, for 30 mins each :D) so, yes, your concern for them is needless :)

He'll need an alarm, Margot. Perhaps if he gets a zap every time you have a drink?

*goes to set up the bottles*
:D

Now there's an idea :D :D :D

Margot

What fun I've missed :D