Er, I have plenty of things to suggest, but fortunately most other people have suggested helpful things here and also the problem is now solved, so I'm not going to waste time suggesting other hypothetical solutions when there isn't a problem anymore....

"Going near the spot would infer going near the spot to soil."

Maybe to you and me, but not to the dog.  I'm sure sometimes the dog would go near it to soil, but also sometimes he might just want to walk through that spot particularly if it's a spot in the middle of the floor rather than a corner.  How can you tell which time is which?  You can't, so you are in fact punishing just walking round that area. 

"The cloth used to clean blot the spot will contain the smell, so yes there will be association."

Again - maybe to you and me, but not to the dog.  Dogs aren't people and they don't think like we do.  If I threw a wee stained cloth at my dogs, they would have no idea to think 'Oh, that means that I must have wee-ed in the wrong place' - dogs don't think like that.  Sorry.  It might make you feel good to chuck something at a dog when you're angry, but perhaps you should just buy a punch bag and give that a whack instead.

Like the previous poster just said - all your methods of shaking or hitting loud things are far more likely to 1. create a puppy scared of loud noises, 2. create a puppy which is scared to toilet in your presence or 3.  create a confused and screwed up puppy. 

Also, by the way, the crate should never be used as punishment, so shutting the puppy up in there whilst also letting it know you are angry is a bad idea.  It will just associate the crate with punishment in the puppy's eyes and make it less likely to want to go in there in future. 

Claybuster, sadly i do believe many who take advice on internet forums tend to feel those who give advice may be experts - not all think this, but some do. Any Tom, Dick or Sheila could come on here and give horrendous advice - but if they come across well, there will always be someone who says to themselves "wow, that sounds good, I'll try it" to the detriment of their own or their dog's health, relationship or, at worst, even life

Re catching a dog in the act, as you refer to it - i train reward based and the very most i ever do (If I am sure the pup is not ill, and that requires a vet visit) is to say a "ah!" to distract, then I take the pup outside. I might hit myself on the head with a rolled up newspaper though :P If house training is done with a pup, and the owners are home all day, there will be accidents but if owners are on the ball, not many. I also reward a dog when outside, often actually in the act, with a piece of sausage and this way can have a dog who eventually will go on command - veru useful indeed when visiting places.

I base my relationship with my dog, as do most on here, on trust and teaching, I don't now follow any dominance theory and certainly don't feel one has to be "dominant" over a pup or dog that is having problems housetraining. There is always a reason, even if it's not immediately apparent to us as primates :)

I agree with you that there are plenty of people who would shove their dog's nose in the mess, and agree it's not a good thing to do! I knew one person who would do this even when he had got up late and his dog was desperate.... very unfair indeed.

Lindsay
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