Ah well I'll stick to my hands off treat & toy method for my obedience training it can't be that bad as it got the only dog I trained seriously for obedience from Beginners to ticket C in 21 months(my bitch was C only & in ticket by the time she was 2 1/4)& to UDEx by the time she was 2 3/4 with 4 months of training & has my 16 week old puppy doing a beginners retrieve, heelwork & recall(he learnt the retrieve in one day)

I didn't find the clicker of any use training my dogs to sheep either ;) it did train the sheep tho' :D

Hi MM :)  Not that I'm trying to play devils advocate or anything but even though I use a clicker mine is also a hands off treat and toy method ;)  When teaching the sendaway my hound was much more excited and rewarded when a toy was used after the click, the click was just for everytime her nose touched the target so she knew what she was suppose to be doing - I even clicked for her looking at the target in the early days so that when the front markers were added she ignored them as she knew she had to be looking straght ahead and off she went rewarded with a toy for reaching her destination :D  Your method clearly works but I wouldn't want potential clicker trainers getting the wrong idea about a positive reinforcing, hands off training technique ;)
Sarah

LOL just like everything to do with dogs (& people)there is no size fits all method of dog training. When I started(back in the mists of time)99% of training was done a la military/police handlers, chokers the norm lots of heavy handed placing of the dogs. As I was only 8 years old there was no way I could pull & push an adult GSD around & so with the help of a hepherd who used GSDs in Ireland I took my first steps in motivational traning.

When I was 14 I was loaned a bitch to train who had been through the hands of a then all too common dog breaker & in his kennels she was beaten into obedience with a leather strap & choker. She wasn't obedient at all just terrified. So I could not put anything around her neck other than the flat collar she always wore & no way could you put a lead of any strength or weight on the collar. She was also terrified of even being touched(she had been returned as a fuly trained dog)

So I could only attach a very light cord to her collar & I was a a loss to even try to help her. I struck lucky again in the form of a RAF militarypoliceman(not a dog handler)who had self taught himself to train his very nervous white sable GSD using a touch method(yes this was in the 1960's !!!)

With a treat in my hand & the bitch unfed I sat & taught her to touch her nose to my hand for the treat., using this as a starting point. I progressed to holding it about her her head & moving it backwards until she sat & then downwards until she was in a down. We slowly progressd into heelwork again holding the treat so she could touch my hand for it & eventually she would just watch my hand. We worked obedience & got placed in every class we were in but never won as we always lost run offs

When I got my first BC she was tiny(1/2 inch over a sheltie sizewhenadult)& by then I had my back problem(long story caused by an army cadet abseiling into me whilst I was climbing)so I used the same technique & it must have worked as by 8 1/2 months of age she was out of Novice winning 8 beginners & seven novices & she was C only at 2 1/4 despite having 6 months with no retrieve due to being attacked whilst working by a GSD.

I have used this method on all my dogs & whilst not as instant as clicker training is supposed to be, I find it builds a real relationship that gives my dogs the confidence & trust in me they shoud have. I only have my dogs on leads at dog shows, training club & when legally required I never train them on lead not even for recalls or stays.

Like I said this method will not work with all handlers, but they do for me so I personally have no need for a clicker.

BTW the sheep learnt to flock to the clicker(using the dog as a stimulus ;) ) & also to follow me I felt quite like lil Bo Peep :D

Hi Moonmaiden,

There are loads of training methods and yours is lovely. If all owners could control their dogs off-lead, they would become better trainers. You certainly do not need a clicker for training at all and often I do not use the clicker - for example I do not use the clicker for my puppy classes, I only introduce it to those owners that are keen on training and then they have to go through my clicker class to proceed to the advance class - where they do not have to use the clicker if they don't want to. I also do not use the clicker on owners that I do not think are capable of using it properly, I adjust my training methods to the individual person and dog.

I tend to use the clicker initially until the behaviour is on cue or when there are alot of distractions. I don't use it for all behaviours either. At the moment, I am working on the retrieve with my puppy and am just working on getting her running back to me enthusiastically with her toy. I don't take the toy away and I don't click for anything, I just play with her as a reward and this works very well for me at the moment.

I do love the clicker though and it has personally allowed me to train some pretty complicated behaviours and train cross-species, which is hard with just praise.

All the best,
Patty

I found sheep responded well to clicker training too.......

Hi digger,

Your post made me smile, as I am going to a farm to clicker train some farm animals in 2-weeks' time. Should be fun :-)

What behaviour did you teach the sheep? I'm being sneaky and trying to think ahead, so that I am prepared by the time I get there.

Cheers,
Patty

I taught her very simply 'left' and 'right' - once keyed in to the idea of clickers, she would raise a foot and paw the ground with frustration when the food stopped coming - from there on it was simply a case of labelling the behaviour and bingo!  The owners were quite impressed that their sheep was that smart ;)  Shame I didn't get very far with the very practical initial idea, which was to train her to accept having her feet trimmed :(