To settle this argument and missinformation that is being past about here why not contact the Guide Breeding Centre? Head manager is Neil Ewart at Tollgate House, Bishops Tachbrook, Leamington Spa, Warks. Or if you want to see loads of Labs in action Guide Dogs are celebrating 75 years next year with a huge get together at Morton Morrell on the first Saturday in July.

This thread is over 7 months old........

Ditto Christine :-)

Well I only mention one because that is the only one I am familiar with, that does not necessarily mean that there WAS only one...............

I agree with what you say but I think the key is if the stud is such a good example then are they letting any Tom, Dick or Harry use him ? I think they should prove that all bitches and owners are throughly vetted and suitable matches and the intentions of breeding are specifically for the means to maintain or improve the breed :)

Perhaps we ought to get them to provide us with their policy on this :)

Lucy
xx

Found this on their web site.  They don't mention what health checks are required of the bitch but as they are doing this for the benefit of their breeding plans and they carry out checks on the dogs I think we can suppose they will require the same.

FACTS at last, thank you.

And a little more :)

Nice to see they are insisting on health checked (hip and eye scored) bitches :)

I think it would have been very suprising if they didn't :) as much as any breeder, it is in their interest that their puppies are destined for long, healthy and useful lives :)

Only thing that is maybe lacking which kind of puts then into the same catogory as servicing the pet breeding market is nowhere does it mention the measuring of the dog against the breed standard..  neither stud or bitch which is really what breeding is fundementally all about.. am I right folks.. :-))

I wouldn't let my dog mate a bitch no matter what the health tests, temperament if it wasn't a good example of the breed.

Right said my peace..

You are right it probably is going to be the pet industry that will use these studs but those bitches will probably be served anyway, this way they get the healthiest physical and mental specimen they can possibly achieve.
Coming to it from another angle the web sites shows clearly that the aim is to produce new bloodlines for their breeding program.  Their job is to supply suitable dogs to perform a task to make people with sight problems lives easier, I think we all accept that is a very worth while concept.  Over about 70 years experience they have identified that the best dog to help with that is the Labrador in a first cross with the Golden Retriever so the need for a breeding program is there, how else would they be able to keep it healthy with an influx of new blood if you prevented them for casting their net out into the general population?

>"You are right it probably is going to be the pet industry that will use

these studs but those bitches will probably be served anyway, this way
they get the healthiest physical and mental specimen they can possibly
achieve.
Coming to it from another angle the web sites shows clearly that the
aim is to produce new blood lines for their breeding program. "<

Hi Isabel :-)  I don't think the new blood line arguement works at all.. if you want new blood lines use a nice quality outside dog.. lets put it this way in generally the qualities we bring into a breeding program in general are through males.. not from outside pet bitches using our dogs at stud..   Even if the did take one in there is a litter left to home.

I also think that the arguement  " well they might as well use them as to any others, as they are going to do it anyway"

I think this arguement is crazy and almost irrisponsible.   I would never offer a dog at stud to someone just to prevent them using another..

Each to their own but I am suprised that anyone honestly on this board can really really honestly say 100% in their heart they think this is OK.

I am sure Mattie will be able to confirm how many quality, well bred, wonderful temperamented dogs she get through her resuce EVERYDAY..  that in itself should be enough for people to stop, look and listen.
:-)

BFN Pam

I don't see why the contribution of a healthy bitch who passes their requirements for temperament cannot supply them with a dog puppy to meet their needs for a stud dog carrying new blood.  Whether they used an outside dog on their bitch or vice versa the result is the same, a whole litter, they want at least one maybe more if they look suitable but the rest will go for pets, I'm sure they would make very good ones too.  They are enormously experienced breeders I am sure they understand the best way of meeting their requirements by now :)

Hi Isabel,

We are going round and round.. is that not a song :-)))

Isabel we are the first to slate guest posts who breed from dogs with good temperaments only , that have never worked or showed a dog etc and can't tell if it is even the slightest resemblence of the breed standard why would we think endless amount of puppies from the guidedogs is OK..  ?  I think you all know deep down it isn't OK or I do believe someday you will.. :-)

Why not visit lab rescue site and see how we are trying to raise little bits of money to save labs from here there and everwhere from being put to sleep, yes very very young quality dogs.. if the demand is there why is pedigree, quality, sound and loving temperament dogs being put to sleep..  Do you think the guidedogs ones being bred by experience breeders don't end up in rescue. I know they do ;-)

Better still rather than breed endless amounts of puppies why not take some of these beautiful creatures in rescue and use these.   Why the need for a litter. They are so so easy trained it doesnt require some special ingredient to produce a sound lab.. most are. I am useless at training and my lab does anything for me..

Not sure if it has became a last word on this thread so I will leave it now and let anyone wanting the last word have it ;-) at the end of the day , I know and I think YOU ALL know we have too many labs and the amount registered in the BRS is terrible. The guidedogs registering loads and loads is also not that impressive.

For a breed that does so much for them I dont think they give the same back.

BFN :-)))  

Pam,

You can just see the scenario now, can't you?

Mrs Bloggs has a yellow Labrador pet bitch (Half decent pedigree 3 generations back!) albeit with several conformation faults, thinks 'I'd like a litter from her' after seeing the Guide Dog advert.  Duly health tests her bitch thinking that Guide Dogs will take 1 or 2 of the pups from her and 'haven't my friends & neighbours always said that my dog has a lovely temperament & if she has pups they'd love one'.

Bitch whelps, has 14 puppies, Guide Dogs aren't interested in any and the friends & neighbours all seem uncontactable all of a sudden!    Where do they go????   

MMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE............

I think it unlikely having gone to the trouble of insisting on all health schemes having been carried out that the bitch would not be inspected to rule out any conformation faults that would affect movement or good dentition etc. they are clearly going to be very picky about temperament too.  I expect there can be few breeders on earth more experienced in judging it too :)  So perhaps the chances of all the puppies failing their assessment are quite slim.  As I have said on my other post there is a great long list of people waiting for excess dogs from the GBD so I am sure they could help with unplaced puppies.

I don't want to get involved with this thread on a public forum - but just to put the record straight as it seems some people are under the impression that any old bitch will be ok to be put to a GD stud.

Christinew - If Mrs Bloggs approached Guide Dogs to use a Guide Dog stud on her bitch with a half decent pedigree and the bitch was not a good / healthy quality example  - then as with most breeders Guide Dogs would not wish to use one of their dogs -

Guide Dogs will only use their dogs on good quality bitches with excellent pedigrees, excellent temperaments, good hip scores / clear eye certificate and will carefully choose a dog to complement her. Before any bitch is used with a Guide Dog stud - they are seen / assessed by the Breeding Manger.

Don't pressume that because Guide Dogs breed quantity that the dogs don't also have quality.
This is all I wish to say & will not be adding any further posts to this thread. :)

Smudgley, I'm desperately trying to remember the name of the Breeding Manager that I used to know, and I'm having another senior moment!!  Smallish, stocky man, used to wear a tweedy jacket whenever I saw him.  Help me please, it was Derek F................???????????

Freeman?? (sorry to but in...)

That's it, that's it!!!!  Many thanks.  He was a lovely man, very knowleable.  I had great respect for him!!  Just brought a smile to my face. :)

What constitutes an excellent pedigree?   

My sister's first dog - an English Springer - was a paternal grandson of Sh.Ch. Thornlea Cascade , Crufts group winner.  Amongst his sire's side of the pedigree were names such as Sh.Ch. Hawkhill Connaught (52CC's), Ch. Teesview Tarmac & Ch. Teesview Titus.   Well known affixes such as Wollburn, Cleavehill & Slayleigh.

His dam's side were all working dogs again from good working kennels, the two halves of the pedigree were excellent in their own fields but shouldn't be put together. 

There's no doubt countless Labradors who fall into the same category - splashed with 'red' throughout the 5 generations - it looks very impressive but no thought has gone into the resulting progeny. 

>we are the first to slate guest posts who breed from dogs with good temperaments only

But that is people breeding for pets, the GDB are breeding a dog for the specific purpose of guiding blind people that is their purpose not to breed dogs that look a certain way which is what a pet buyer is entitled to.  I think if they sidetracked to consider looks some dogs with the ideal temperament could be overlooked.  I think it worth consider that the temperament they require is very specific not just gentle and reliable but they require just the right balance of bidibility and independence.  As I keep saying they obviously have the experience so if they feel they need to throw the net out in this way I am sure there is good cause but as you say, round and round :) and I'm sure deep down people know they need to do it ;)
I would be suprised if many GDBs end up in rescue as I know they have a very long waiting list for retired dogs and dogs that fail the training, being few and far between, as my friend who puppy walked for them sat on it for some time before giving up :)

"But that is people breeding for pets, the GDB are breeding a dog for the specific purpose of guiding blind people that is their purpose not to breed dogs that look a certain way"

I have tried and tried to sit on my hands I have , I promise LOL  ( don't put me off your Xmas card list ;-)  )

come on Isabel , Isabel :-)))  can you hear what you have said. so it is ok to breed dogs who may not conform to the standard because the want them for a different purpose..Sorry Isabel as far as I am concerned that is wrong.  You don't make any sacrifice AT ALL when breeding especially the volume they breed and the volume who end up in the pet market and subsequently then bred on from.. ( it does happen) How many do you think end up as pets. We are not talking about a a breed who has one or 2 puppies are we. :-)

Can you imagine how I would be slated if I said I am breeding for the show ring not for the pet market so that means I can sacrifice on temperament..   I wouldn't dare sacrifice ANYTHING.  and I only have a few ( 7 in total)  puppies that have ended up as pets and  not a % the volume that they breed. 

Now before anyone jumps in and says how do you know ( meaning me) they don't breed to type.. I don't but nobody seems to have mentioned conformation in your arguement and almost dismissed  its importance because they are wanting a small percentage of guide dogs from the total the breed.  

Conformation is one of the fundemental elements of breeding.  We all know that. :-)

Were you on the debating team at school to ;-)

I think very, very few end up as pets.  The vast majority of their 1200 a year pups are the cross bred ones destined for training as guide dogs, we are talking here about a small number of litters to extend the blood lines for their breeding stock.  As a charity to provide dogs perfectly suited to guiding blind people I think we have to accept that breeding to a show standard is not the first priority.  I don't see that is any different to accepting that working stock is not going to be bred to show standards. 

Those required tests sound ideal - and with them having at least one pup it does indeed increase their gene pool.
:)

Thanks Isabel, sorry I run out on the thread. :-)) Nice to get so many replies to my post sometimes I don't get many ;-))   I am showing on Saturday in Coventry which is a 7 hour drive so I am off tomorrow noon .. had to get the dogs ready :-)

The ad on their site seems quite good, they should have copied it over similarly into the paper as the paper ad I think doesn't give the same image.. as you know I am not the only one to raise it so others must have found it concerning ..  still find it strange though to run a big ad in the paper which is costly..but hey who knows.  We all have opinions. I just want to see the registry of labradors reduce and the quantity through rescues reduce greatly. I think that is a fair thing to want.

When I mentioned the China thing it was really as it was mentioned about supply and demand as the reason for so many puppies ,  I personally don't agree with that. The demand for children in China isn't what is caused the population explosion  resulting in the " one child rule"..   which has also caused major affects.. just an example of how humans get things so wrong :-))

Must get to bed for my long drive. 

Lucy, Genjeanie, Christine etc everyone thanks for the input.. :-)

Sorry Ive started a thread and just seen this . and this i s my bit

In every litter bred you may have one decent pup for working ( or showing)  whatever if your lucky so hopefully the others go to good homes,as for the labs guide dogs breed being typical of the old labs that would that  be lab cross goldens ?which is what  most guide dogs are   mainly to get the height of a golden and I presume the temperament of each.
I cannot for the life of me understand why they are offering their dogs at public stud it would never have happened at one time.
For myself ,and lets get it right I could have bred many litters and probably been quite well off  doing it but for one thing I got involved with rescue which completely changed my views,the amount of unwanted labradors in this country is  shameful ! and goldies I have a lovely friend in goldies who is currently occupying a whole block of our local boarding kennel with goldens no one wants.
the rescue situation is terrible so why offer dogs at stud when its not a necesasity
Get a copy of the BRS and look at the labs and goldens and ask your self why this is happening. and the answer is greed !
GDBA do not need money they have their own breeding programe if they need to add to the gene pool there are enough  lab stud dogs to go around, dogs I have bred have been used at guide dogs.
Shoot me if you like but I still think they have lost the plot

The GDBA studs I've seen aren't the crosses they use but are purebred dogs, Mattie. As far as I know they only use first crosses for work - they don't use their crosses for breeding. As far as I know their dogs have been offered at public stud for at least 14 years, so it's not a particularly new thing.

Think about it this way - if people are looking for a stud dog it implies they plan to mate their bitch anyway; it's a question of choosing a sire, not whether or not to have a litter in the first place. So isn't it a good idea to use a hip-scored, elbow-scored, eye-tested dog, with a good temperament?

I didnt know their dogs have been at public stud it shows you can learn anything  on here :)

I see what you are saying about the health schemes and agree, sadly most dogs that end up in rescue are from irresponsible breeders.
I do try to see things both from a rescue and breeder point of view i just wish our breed wasnt so exploited :(

I understand what you mean about the popular breeds being exploited - but at least these sires are about as healthy as you can get, which has to be a positive aspect.
:)

Hi  Jeangenie.. :-))   

"Isn't it a good idea to use a hip-scored, elbow-scored, eye-tested dog, with a good temperament?"

The problem is that is what most pet stud dogs are anyway so they are not given then something most of the pet market studs are not..

Where is the quality of the dog measured, where is it quoted that they are of breed type..

If any of us on this board who showed their breed produced puppies time and time again that did not conform to the breed standard, or if we bred litters without taking this into a major consideration we would be seen as very unreputable breeders..  :-)

Lets look it another way how often to people come on the board saying I have a dog I want to use at stud, he has the tests how do I go about it... We ALL say how do you know your dog is good enough to be used at stud.. how has he been assessed against the standard etc etc...   so where or how do they?

BFN Pam

Hi Blue - I'm not sure I agree that most pet stud dogs are hip-scored, elbow-scored or eye-tested. A huge number seem to be 'the dogs down the road' who haven't been tested at all, let alone have satisfactory results. Even many champion studs aren't elbow-scored.

And I'm not sure why bitches aren't as capable of introducing new bloodlines as dogs? Could you explain please?
:)

"And I'm not sure why bitches aren't as capable of introducing new bloodlines as dogs?  Could you explain please?"

Jeanjeanie I didn't say they aren't as cabable I Said that in generally when we have bitches and as a decent breeder we select dogs who can improve our line, or to add blood etc.. it is not as common the other way I think.. 

Although a puppy back from a breeder may or can help in general we use our own good quality bitches to expand...

Does that make sense :-)

I think we are going to go round in circles on this so best lay it to bed but as I said I am suprised that people have forgotten about how vital the breed standard is when breeding dogs.. :-)

It's the way of the world that it's much easier generally for bitch owners to find a suitable stud, whereas it's harder for dog owners to find suitable bitches for their dogs. The GDBA is the largest single breeder of puppies in the UK (and they're never sold!), so has to keep a continual watch on their gene pool. Also the GDBA is breeding for a particular purpose, in this case for assistance dogs, not show specimens or field triallers, so have different criteria to be met, just as people who want a good working labrador wouldn't touch most of the show lab studs with a barge pole.
:)