Quote (Actually at that time we were a reasonably affluent family, grandfather owned the shops, grocery and butchers. And all dogs were fed raw and fed well!!! Before, during and after rationing.)

Well Whooooooooooopeeeeeeeeee for you and your affluent family  so that makes feeding raw right does it? I think I will throw in a spade you can dig a deeper hole with that.

>Well Whooooooooooopeeeeeeeeee for you and your affluent family  so that makes feeding raw right does it? I think I will throw in a spade you can dig a deeper hole with that.

Your arrogance is undermining any credibility you may credit yourself with

The point you make about people being critised for choosing to feed complete is valid but to go to the other extreme is equally as rude and condecending. You told Kay her father and grandfather didnt feed Raw when you had no way of knowing how true that was and now I think you owe her an apology. 
Why dont you stop and explain why you think raw is so wrong rather than just basically telling everyone their idiots I'm sure its  really going to get them to listern to you or have you only come here to stir up an arguement?

Quote Satincollie said "You told Kay her father and grandfather didnt feed Raw when you had no way of knowing how true that was and now I think you owe her an apology. 
"

I said nothing of the sort please read the posts before commenting.

So why not read my comments on this thread and the previous thread on raw. And you will understand what I am saying regarding feeding RAW note I say RAW not processed or anything else feed your dogs anything you want but cook it first the meat we have in todays market bears no resemblence to waht we had 50 years ago.

I have read your posts and you did imply that what she said couldn't be so and when you were told differently you were childish and rude in response .However you have answered my question and so as not to feed you I will reply no more and leave you to argue with yourself.As I do the posters that say feeding complete means you dont care about your dogs either :rolleyes:

Satincxollie

Please show me where I implied what she said couldn't be so. What I intimated was that she had intimated that her family was well off and could afford to feed quality food and cuts and what I said was Whopeeee for uoi and your rich family it is important that if you are going to comment then you comment the facts noT reading behind imaginary lines.

I do not wish to upset you or question you but it is important you read the threads.

Hi Canine,  I see you've just joined the forum and clearly feel passionately on how best we should feed our much loved dogs - an admirable quality, & one about which many feel strongly.  I don't understand why you're being so aggressive with others on this subject   Since newly registered you've had little time so far to explain your own views on what is best dietary practice & how you have come to these conclusions ergo it seems counter-productive to be dismissive of others who clearly have a right to feel passionately about their own choices too :( 
As you state you are of a generation who lived through the war and rationing, I'm surprised at your lack of personal respect for others; my grand-parents lived through those times and would certainly never adopt such a tone when speaking to others nor have permitted their family members to do so.  Might it not be better to start a new thread on how you feed your dogs, your experiences behind it, if it's something you have adopted recently or been enjoying the results of for a long time?  I'm sure *many* would be interested to hear an alternative viewpoint but not entirely sure that much can be learned or information exchanged if it requires sifting through a barrage of abuse ;)   Teri 

Canine - until commercial diets were developed, most dogs would be fed left overs and scraps - some cooked, some not - this it wasn't economic to cook food to be fed to dogs - fuel was too scarce......

I think most of it would be cooked, can't see too many people cutting of the dogs cuts first :)
However I don't agree with the rest of Canine's rather OTT views, sorry :), I'm sure in the hands of someone who knows what he is doing a raw, or any home made diet, can be made up just as good as a commercial one ;).  By someone who knows what he is doing, I would say someone with a qualification in dog anatomy, physiology and aetiology i.e. a vet.  I understand Mr Billinghurst is a vet.

Mr Billinghurst is indeed a vet, but I've noticed on here many people are extremely critical of the training in nutrition that vets receive, and advise everyone not to believe what they tell us.

Clearly they are meaning only believe certain vets :)  I would have thought you cannot possibly understand the physiology and aetiology dogs properly without understanding the effects of nutrition.  I'm not aware of any special qualifications offered by the RCVS, no doubt Mr Billinghurst has had an interest in this field for many years enabling him to call himself an expert but that will be equally so of the countless unnamed vets who work for the commercial food manufacturers.

Hi Isabel

I have no problem with a natural diet as long as it is cooked. Billinghurst is a vet not a Nutritionist. Vets deal with hundreds of species not just one, and are not specialists in any of them ,unless they chose to specialise. Billinghurst has no qualifications in nutrition. Nor has he done any scientific studies or testing on the effects of feeding todays raw food to our pets.

He has patently ignored all requests for proof of his contentions. And has claimed to have studied Wolves Coyotes and Digloes and their diet but can show no studies or proof of this.

Veterinarians are now seeing many more cases of pancreatitis, ulcers, malnutrition, internal injuries, systemic bacterial poisoning and other conditions as people experiment with these dangerous diets. Raw meat can contain parasites, bacteria, salmonella and e-coli. This is especially hazardous to puppies and elderly dogs whose immune system is not yet fully formed or has been depleted through age or illness. The bone fragments found in raw feed can also be potentially lethal. Particles of bone can puncture the internal organs or become lodged in the throat and choke the animal.

To eradicate the dangers of contamination from raw meat, simply cook the food first before serving to your dog, or feed a quality dry food. 

As I say Canine I find you views too OTT, I have always advocated that there are many different diet options for dogs and I don't see why a raw mix can't be one of them, I believe those who use it will know the precautions they have to take with raw meat as do any of use that might give some as a treat above our normal diet choice.
Is there such a thing as a canine nutritionist?

s there such a thing as a canine nutritionist?

Yes! for instance: Julie Churchill is a specialist in companion animal nutrition at the University of Minnesota's College of Veterinary Medicine strongly discourages the use of the BARF diet; "I am very much against the raw food diets," Dr. Churchill said. "Many dogs can do well on a raw food diet. However, [the diets] have the potential to be life-threatening. Any food that can potentially kill even one animal is not worth the risk."

Why might BARF be fatal to dogs? Dr. Churchill says  "Bones, even raw and ground ones, can perforate the [gastrointestinal] tract. This can lead to peritonitis, severe infections, which would require emergency surgery, and dogs die from this each year...These diets are contaminated with bacteria. This may not be harmful to a healthy dog. However, dogs don't come with a label saying which ones will be fine and which ones will get sick."

I meant a qualification.  Many vets could claim to be specialists in the field but are any of them examined on the subject by a body of their peers such as the RCVS?

That's just the point, dogs food wasn't specially prepared - they were fed what was left, and most of it would have been the stuff the humans wouldn't even bother cooking!  IF they received cooked food, it would be the tiniest portion that couldn't be reused and served as risoles or whatever.

>the stuff the humans wouldn't even bother cooking! 

I don't think that would have amounted to much in the times we are talking about :)  Before people got squeamish about any other than a chicken breast in a plastic tray they used to say you could eat all of a pig except its squeak.  The dog wasn't going to get fat on that!  Actually I suspect the dogs didn't get much meat at all.

My friends are sponsored by Purina Pro Plan. I'm no expert but know my friends wouldn't attach them to a name unless they believed in the brand. Judging by the champions they produce they are onto something ;) And the company certainly provides generous sponsorship.

KayC You said "Your arrogance is undermining any credibility you may credit yourself with"

Who said I credit myself with anything?

Thank you  Gillian :D

>I certainly can. Because I am that age we never fed raw we fed scraps off our plate and the occassional raw bone from the butcher.

>We couldn't afford to feed raw the bones had meat on them and it was just the leftovers that we fed the dogs I am of an age that remebers rationing so please don't come out that that old rubbish.

Basically by saying dont come out with "that old rubbish" you have called me a liar.  If you wish a debate at least have the decency to remain civil.

Apology Accepted :D :D

As for preparing dogs meat, in the good old days of rationing a lot of the meat was made up in weight and many people could not afford any extra fat, grisle, bone etc, so this was all cut out by the butcher, and promptly fed to the dogs.  A butcher was a butcher back then!!! So yes the dogs feed was prepared before the humans. In our house at least.

Come to think of it the cat wasn't fed tinned food either (just an aside)

>Raw meat can contain parasites, bacteria, salmonella and e-coli.

And cooked meats cant????

>Who said I credit myself with anything

You seem to credit yourself with knowledge but appear not to have tried and tested the 'RAW' diet, so how can you possibly make comparisons and give advice on what we should and should not feed. You seem to credit yourself with that right. Most of us on here give advice on the knowledge of experience but do not, in effect, ram it down others throats. We may debate the rights and wrongs of our beliefs, but that is our right.

>Well Whooooooooooopeeeeeeeeee for you and your affluent family  so that makes feeding raw right does it?

Does it make feeding raw wrong???

And just for the record, I have fed processed comercialised dry and tinned for nearly 50 years :D

I don't think freshly, properly cooked meat can have parasites, bacteria, salmonella and e-coli, they would all be destroyed in the process but thats not to say some of these cannot be dealt with by freezing, washing or removing chicken skin, buying quality fresh meat etc making the risk minimal.

Quote "And just for the record, I have fed processed comercialised dry and tinned for nearly 50 years"

Perhaps you can tell me how you did that as it wasn't available 50 years AGO

You said "Basically by saying dont come out with "that old rubbish" you have called me a liar.  If you wish a debate at least have the decency to remain civil. Apology Accepted " You will get no apology from me whilst coming out with "The old rubbish" of dried and commercialised dog food for 50 years.

Any idea when commercialised dry dog food started to be manafactured?

I think kayc probably meant dry or tinned.  I first noticed dried complete foods about 20, maybe 25 years ago, before that we had semi moist completes, who remembers Minced Morsals? :) from at about 30 years ago, I can't quite remember 50 years but not so far off and I can't remember a time when there wasn't tinned food usually served with a biscuit mixer.

I certainly remember tinned dog food in the very early 1960s. Anyone else remember the Saval range of mixers?
:)

Found something http://www.tintechnology.biz/tinplate/tinplate.aspx?page_id=1764&SelectedMenu_ID=345  1930's in the US of A of course :) only thing is I've forgotten why it matters :o :)
No go on the link I'm afraid cut and paste if anyone can remember why it matters :)

Yes Isabel I did mean tinned, I did not feel 'kibble' until around 10 years ago.  My dogs loved the minced morsels, especially later when they started making them with cheese :D 

Oh, and I said nearly 50 years, give or take a few years. Pedantic or what? :D.  Minced morsels have been around for about 35 years, I first got them for my dogs when I was 14. How do I remember, it was my own dog, not my fathers and paid for food with my pocket money and my father was horrified that I had bought 'dog food'

Anyway, will no longer contribute to this thread, however I will continue to feed my dogs on what they enjoy and thrive on.

But thank you for your input 'Canine' or whoever you are ;)