If a puppy was born with a handicap that would most likely affect its quality of life I would have the vet put it to sleep immediately.

Edit: A 'runt', by the way, isn't just a name for the smallest in a litter - the smallest can often be just as strong and healthy as the others. A runt is the weakest, most unhealthy, least likely to survive - not ideal for a pet.

If it was found to be blind or deaf as a puppy whilst with the breeder tehn yes a responsible breeder would put the puppy to sleep, as it isn't fair to rear a puppy that would not have a normal quality of life.

On the other hand a dog that was found to be this way as an older pup or adult would need a very special home found, and sadly there are very few such homes,a dn plenty of perfectly ehalthy dogs in need of them.

What an interesting debate and I think it shows the differences in how people view their animals.

I would not condone drowning pups, but do understand that to many people their dog is a working part of the farm and in fact have a friend in the US who is only allowed dogs on the condition that she is prepared to shoot them on the day they cease to be able to work. Sounds very harsh to many of us, but her hubby believes that a working dog will never be happy if it is too ill/lame to work and it is the kindest thing to do.  I would add that I know of people who pay a fortune to keep their pet alive, even when it is suffering, which is to my mine at least as cruel.

very interesting i dont breed but if i did and thought for a minute their maybe a large litter i would find  homes before i even breed .

In those circumstances, maysea, what would be your options when you have 5 bitch puppies and one dog booked, and your bitch produces 9 dogs? (By no means unusual, by the way.) So you have 8 surplus pups ...

When I had one of my litters, a friend had seven 14-week-old dobermann dog puppies still looking for homes, and becoming less and less desirable (in the eyes of prospective owners who want a baby pup) by the day ...

Exactly and I wish more people thought about it before they find themselves in that situation. Unfortunately life dosnt always go as planned and sometimes difficult decisions have to be taken. Dosent mean that I agree with drowning but I can see that many people would see it as the easiest option.

I can just imagine.  Now keeping more than one of the saem ses in some breeds would be impossible.  So the breeder woudl have to find soem way fo premenetly seperating 7 males of this large powerful breed.

I bet after this they would think quite hard and possibley cull such a litter at bitrth another time, especially if other breede5rs also had a lot of surplus in same sex.

In my own breed breeders rarely expect to have homed all their pups by 8 weeks as even with full order bools you get cancellations, imbalnce in sexes in your or other breeders litters etc.

Brainless what on earth gives you that idea. A pup which is born is no different to a human born. It is not the same as a woman having an abortion but the same as killing a new born baby. I do meen the the same feelings here and not the same morals.

I don't believe a dogs life is the same as a human's life, we don't euthanise Granny when she becomes bed ridden but we know it is the kindest thing for a dog.
I am very thankfull I would never have to face the decision in my breeds but because of the very large litters these breed tend to have together with their specialist needs I completely understand that a second rate home just will not do.  We are of course not talking about drowning here but euthanising without cruelty at a very early age. 

If you mean being able to perceive the world, pups are born with an immature nevous system compared to herbivores or hunman beings.  they need to be born in an underdeveloped state, as in the wild a longer pregancy and larger young would prevent the mother from hunting.  The reason for a litter as opposed to one young is to make hay while the sun shineds when there is plenty to eat,a nd allow better odds for at least one to survive to maturity.

I have never been and hope never to be in this position, but, terrible as I would find it, I would have to say that I would euthanize if the alternative was to let pups go to the wrong homes. If I couldnt say I would do this I do not think I would be fit to breed a litter in the first place. That said, I know I would shed tears. This is one of those threads that have made me stop and think - I would probably never have given this aspect a second thought if I had not seen it crop up before on Champdogs.

I am jusat so thankful that my breed is not ultra difficult, though stil not the easiest.  Isn't it a shame that soem of the toy breeds are so easy to home at any age, yet have tiny litters so it is hard to get one, and then the breeds that really need very specific types of owners who understand and aren't expecting your average kind of pet are prone to being very fertile.
I am glad I haven't been in this posotion, but I have had to put pups from a few days up to a fortnight old to sleep because they were unhealthy/abnormal, and that was har enough.

What about the breeders of Dalmations being faced with having deaf pups put to sleep at 6 weeks old after hearing testing, heart breaking but responsible.

Fortunately I've never been in that position. I've had unilaterals, but that's no handicap for ordinary life, but it's always a worry when you take them for their test. I know several people who've had totally deaf pups, and it truly breaks their hearts. At 5+ weeks they're real individuals.

I had no idea that breeders cull pups when they haven't got homes for them. I find it sickening actually. They shouldn't be allowed to breed a litter until sufficient suitable homes have been lined up. :(  JMHO
Drowning puppies is sickening too. :(

I'm sorry, but I think if you are breeding dogs you should be prepared to look after ALL the puppies until they get new homes. If that never happens then, I think you owe a duty of care to those animals which YOU have bred.  At the end of the day, it was your choice to breed and I think you should have to take responsibility for those animals.  

Generally quality of life takes preference over quantity. People have been prosecuted for cruelty by allowing themselves to become over-dogged. It's a hard decision, and not for the faint-hearted.

What about the responsibility to the continuance of the breed?  what of the dogs you already have?  Surely taking the responsibility for teh pups to never have to suffer by being humanely destroyed at birth must be better than allowing a breed, in this case one of very ancoent origin as all the sight hounds are to disappear completely????

A breeder who culls excess whelps humanely at birth is preventing suffering and preserving the breed for the future, where who knows with the vagaries of human nature it may yet find mnore favour and man such actions cease to be needed.

the first attempts at introducing the Rottweiler for example fgailed, and I beleive it was a while before GSD's gained any favour.

After all many think that breeders breed for financial gain.  If there really were homes out there for those excess pups why would the breeder not rear and sell them???

I cannot think of any sitation where I would have a healthy animal put to sleep.  I think you can take responsibility for the continuance of breed by having the animals not suitable for breeding from speyed, and breeding from the ones that are suitable, but I do think the responsibility should lay with the breeder for either homing the puppies or keeping them themselves.  If they are not in a position to do that, then I don't think that they should be breeding animals.  At the end of the day, they are living creatures and I don't think we have the right to decide that a healthy animal should die.

Then perhaps it is just as well that the future of these breeds does not rest in your hands :)

Surely better to die at birth than to be put to sleep later after a bad life of being pushed from pillar to post as an unwanted pet.  Do you hold all life sacred, or do you consider that anumals shouldnever be killed.  We rear and kill animals daily for the table.  We have to cull deer and many other wild species in order that a balnce is maintained, and the same will happen to farm livestock.  Most of this is done to adult animals, motly healthy ones.  Now that foxhunting has been banned many healthy hounds will be put to sleep.  Only a smal number will be able to find homes.  Luckily for the breed there will be a few who won't want to see the breed die out, and when they breed in order to carry on the breed they will have to cull the litters if there are too many pups to home.

A freind took on a rescue GSD cross bitch who was 9 months old and had spent 6 months of her life in Bristol dogs home.  She had to wait on taking her home until she finnished her season.  After a few weeks the new owner was worrried about her as she was becoming pot bellied, eating ravenously, but gettin no body. 

To her horror the pup was found to be in whelp (this obviously happened at the dogs home), who offered to take her back and let her have the pups and as soon as they were 3 weeks they would let the mother go home.

After talking to expereinced breeder freinds and her Vet it was decided the poor bitch had been through enough, so when she was whelping the vet came and took all but two pups to be put to sleep.  She had 9 puppies.  Her owner felt that if she had reared the rest of the pups then it would mean that the dogs still languishing in the Dogs home, sometimes for a long time, and the ones waiting to come in (including several unplanned litters) woudl have a better chance of frinding homes if her litter didn't swell their numbers.  the two pups were homed within the family.

rachelandoscar - unfortunately theres no way of telling how many pups a bitch will have. All of us would love to have homes lined up, but the best we can do is have enough for an average size litter, and even then there can be one who drops out because they got one of someone else and didnt let you know or whatever.

I am so glad Abby is being speyed next month

Rachelandoscar

I have a breed that is on the vulnerable list and to be perfectly honest with you, if breeders weren't allowed to breed a litter until suitable homes were found for every puppy then the breed may well disappear. The country would be overun by certain prolific breeds as they are deemed easier to manage. I for one only breed when I want something for the showring and I let it be known that my bitch is going to be mated well in advance so I can have prospective puppy buyers lined up. However like many posters before me have said you cannot be certain how many puppies a bitch will have. Some bitches will produce only one puppy and if it has the desired qualities then the breeder will be over the moon. If I was placed in the position of the people who owned the Neapolitan Mastiff that produced 24 puppies I would certainly think about culling some of the litter as there is no way a bitch can look after so many puppies effectively. I would rather do this than watch any puppies I had bred languish away in a kennel or a home where they do not get the correct treatment. In no way do I agree with drowning puppies, but I have nothing against puppies being PTS humanely by a vet.

Edited for spelling again :D

I have nothing against puppies being put to sleep by a vet - if they are ill, homeless, aggressive, etc.  However, I am not so comfortable with puppies who were deliberately brought into the world being culled, just because they are surplus to requirements.  This is my opinion, I respect yours, but wont change my mind.

It isn't just a matter of being surplus to requirements. The original point was about culling deerhounds and if anything there are more prospective good homes for nicely bred and reared deerhound pups than there are puppies at present.

Another problem arises when you see a bitch coming off a very large litter.  It isn't enough to say that the breeder can supplement. Feeding isn't everything and in many cases mum is run ragged and/or never settles completely with a very big litter that nature wouold not allow her to rear.

Then there is the rearing of the pups themselves. Many deerhound breeders keep thier pups until they are 12 weeks old, and many either rear them completely in the house or at the least have them indoors for a good part of the day for socialisation. Just imagine 15+ 12 week old pups racing around your house! It isn't feasable for most and IMHO it is better to do an excellent job with 6 - 8 than rear what nature throws at you, but less well.

I can understand there may be times when the bitch can't cope with a very large litter. In my opinion this is entirely different to culling pups because the breeder cannot cope with so many in the house. Surely when you breed your bitch you should only do so if you know you can cope with all the hard work and mess that entails. In my opinion it is not a good enough reason reason to cull healthy pups that have been deliberately brought into the world.

Exactly my thoughts Rachel.

I am trying really hard to understand this and put myself in the breeders shoes,but i just cant see myself scooping up a healthy little pup,taking it to the vets and letting him put it to sleep.I would be ashamed and a little embarrased giving the reasons that have been stated.

My vet wouldnt do it anyhow,i called him earlier and told him exactly the reasons that were stated here and he said he just wouldnt put a healthy pup to sleep! He and i understand pts sickly or deformed pups,but not healthy ones.

My vet said he wouldn't like to do help cull an litter, but it's better that he do it with an injection than anyone else do it another way. But then, this is a mixed practice with a lot of large animals, and so maybe they have a different attitude to purely small-animal practices.

JG my vet is relatively new to the vet field,he is very young and hip,might go back and ask him in another ten years or so, when is heart has hardened a little :o

I dont think if a [decent] breeder's vet didnt help cull their litter that they would then go off and club or drown them...or would they?  What would breeders do if all vets refused to put healthy pups down? Gosh,i dread to think,or it might make them think twice and be better prepred before breeding a litter. What do you'll think? what would you do?

Mine is a mixed practice too but my vets were willing to cull once I'd explained why I might want to (and I know they culled an accidental GSD x mastiff crossbreeding for someone else when the pregnacy wasn't caught onto until it was too late). I was left however with the impression that if I'd just been culling to have the numbers right they wouldn't have been too happy.

Hi Rachael, anyone with an outdoor kennel and run can cope with a large litter of baby sighthounds but I doubt that many could cope indoors. I'll hold up my hand and say I do cull very large litters. I do NOT like doing it and when I have it has been for a variety of reasons. Mum being uneasy and unsettled is the prime reason and I do try temporarily removing a few pups first to see if she is happier. Second is what I know I can cope with properly. It isn't a matter of hard work and mess. Cleaning mess is more or less constant with a fair sized litter of a large breed anyway. One litter of 10 pups reared ate right through a wall, and the hole is still there so I'm not houseproud! To me it is the difference between just rearing pups and giving them the best possible start in life, knowing each one as a little individual and getting them all used to everything from the car and vacuum cleaner to the cats and adult dogs before they leave. Finally there is the matter of prior bookings. I don't breed often and am usually oversubscribed but I have been in the position that someone mentioned where only one bitch pup was born in a litter of males. That was not a large litter and most of my prosepective owners decided that they would take a male pup so I didn't have to cull. But if I was in the same position again with a big litter and was well short of good, checked bitch/dog pup homes I would cull before 48hours rather than find myself letting pups go to homes I wasn't completely happy with at 12 weeks. I honestly think that taking all of those things into consideration and culling if nescessary is more responsible than taking the easy option of rearing every pup.

Well I am one of the lucky ones in that I rescued the runt of the litter as no one wanted him.  He is a farm bred BC and has turned out to be a lovely dog.  He is sensitive but that is probably the only lasting trait.  He is now 15 months and has started agility and is doing wonderfully.  I am sorry but cannot and will not condone puppies being drowned.  If they have to be 'culled' have them put down humanely and without pain and suffering.

Claire

Good for you dvnbiker. When I bread my dog there was never any question if any of the litter should be destroyed. Each 1 deserved the right to the life that I had purposely given them. Each 1 was found the home that suited them best. And I could have not picked better homes.

I'll certainly second Sharon on that Claire - good for you rescuing this wee soul ;)

In any event the "runt" of a litter is usually a misnomer for describing the smallest one!   Being small isn't a handicap to my knowledge :rolleyes: and your boy's enjoyment of life and yours of just having him is a testament to the fact that it would have been a vile act for this puppy to have met such an awful fate - Thank God you saved him!   Not that it isn't a vile act for anyone to drown, club, or dump ANY puppies to starve or freeze to death.  As you say, if *need be* they can be humanely pts by a vet - which is what caring breeders do if it's in the PUPPY'S best interest.

Glad you both found one another!
Regards, Teri :)  

A MOST VALID POINT!!! When I breed my husky I only had planned homes for 2 of them. There was 5 in the litter. We kept 1 the other 2 were placed in homes which I selected very wisely. It was hard I had lots of people interested. I think I picked 2 great hoems. That was nearly 3 years ago. Iam still in regular contact with all the owners who worship their dogs.
Now 1 of the homes a pup went to had no knowledge of the breed at all why did I chose that home, it was the love and devotion I could see in the family. Last year this family rescued another.
Now if I hadnt given them the chance, the pup may have gone to a not so loving home and there would probably still be another unwanted in kennels.
When I get photos of these dogs sent and hear the stories they tell me about their pets I feel so dam happy that I chose wise for the pups.
I could have had another view obviously and things would have turned out not so happy.

I dont think anyone here is condoning drowning puppies - just pointing out the circumstances under which they think having puppies put to sleep humanely is warranted

Hi guys,

I hate to say it but it wasn't too long ago that some breeders used to drown/pts yellow flatties.  Before I get flamed to pieces by all the F/C breeders, this was about 15 years ago, and I believe the breeder wasn't particularly well thought of.
My aunt had a yellow (Kerry) flat coat (odd looking) that she got from this breeder who was going to drown it, apparently she bred from a bitch who had whelped at least 1 yellow pup in each of her 3 litters!
I know that they crop up occasionally, but I wonder that if they had been a popular colour, would flatties now come in 3 colours rather than 2? (like labs).

Ali :)

SSSHHH Ali - someone will start advertising them as a very rare expensive must have designer dog ;)