What was said previously as not to use the crate as a form of punishment i agree with, i work in kennels and i see dogs that suffer with kennel stress, who can just not bare to be put in a closed enviroment, even though to me and you it would appear that it is a large kennel what is the dogs problem, you have to ask yourself how was the dog introduced into a kennel enviroment in the first place and did it experience any thing bad? when introducing my dogs to the crate i feed them in it, and they are put into it for short periods of time to start off with and then gradually built up. I work shifts so i do funny hours anyway, but so long as everything i do regarding the crate is positive then so far touch wood i havent had any problems.

Mattie & Leigh, don't you think it may be the people that are at fault not cages. If cages were not available the dogs you speak of may have been tied it the yard or shut in a shed or worse. Owning and useing a cage does not mean you will use it inappropriately. JH

Jackie,everyone on here has the right to put valid points forward for discussion,which is what I and leigh have tried to do based on unpleasant
experiences we have had,I also notice Karen who is also in rescue has replied, she also will no the negative side.Yes of course its the person to blame else how would it have happened ,maybe some of the harder hearted posters couldnt give a damn about how other peoples dogs get treated but If leigh and I have made just one person think about what they are doing (if they are leaving dogs in cages too long) then it will be worth us baring are souls on here,I know it upset Leigh to post that last message and I know how she feels.Everyone does not treat their dogs like we do and its very narrow minded to see ones own view of everything .
I have tried to see all sides.
by all means put your point over but not at our expence please

Mattie, well there is a first time for everything, don't think I've ever been called narrow minded before. May be I did not express my self well, I was pointing out that the pain caused to the dogs was not the fault of cages but the people who used them, who would be bad owners with or without the use of a cage. Whether or not dog owners use a cage or not is not the problem it is the their attude toward their dogs that causes pain. I wish to use a cage and you don't thats fine, but neither of us would wish to cause our charges discomfort or pain would we, it is those who either don't know or don't care who do. JH

With respect to Mattie I don't think you were narrow minded; Mattie feels very strongly about bad crating and with good reason. I too have seen dogs - active dogs, Tervs - distressed by over-crating and sheer laziness on the part of the owners.

I do believe careful and judicious use of crates by peoople who have bothered to learn and are also sensitive to the dogs is helpful ... i don't use my crate that much in fact the longest BANya is in it is one hour!!! :) as she doesn;t actually sleep in it.

Mattie I feel Jackie was expressing her opinion, i really didn't read it as being at your expense, and that sort of remark censors true exchange. Why did you find her post offensive? As i have re-read it and re-read it and can't see why....no offence meant Mattie :)

LIndsay

I have a 8 yr old lab X who was shut in a shed for the first 2 yrs of his life, his food was thrown in through an open window and the only time he was taken out was to be tied to the washing line and beaten. We are his 5th home and he HATES strangers, he is also terrified of being shut in.
I've had him 6 yrs and he is better than he has ever been now but can't be trusted with strangers. I am lucky that the moors are right behind us and he is walked where very few people go. If we have people to the house he doesn't know then he goes to my mum and dad's where he feels safe. Once he gets to know and trust you he will be your best friend and is adored by many people who he has come to trust.
This dog suffered at the hands of some truly evil people and I know what I'd like to do to them!!!

nicolla,

Your poor dog.

I too have a rescued Boarder Collie called Molly and she too went through some of what you have posted. I have had her just over a year now and she too hates stangers and will nip them as if to say I will get you before you hurt me.

My husband and I adore her and she is about 4 years old now. I am lucky that my family and friends who come to my home are aware of her problems and do not fuss her they will say hello she will bark at them but stays by my side, if she does nip anyone the word "NO" is spoken. I have very understanding family and friends. Oh I am not saying yours are not ooops.. came out wrong there.

My blood boils when you hear about what evil people do to animals it turns my stomach. you dog is very lucky to have you and like wise with your dog. Your doing a geat job give you woof a huge from me and Molly!

Take care

Julieann and Molly

schip

Hi I don't think that is way Mattie and the others were trying to say to you really. It works for you, your dogs go to their crates because it's safe not locked in and can go and please themselves. Sounds like you have a really good family there.

What we were talking about is those who locked up their dogs day in and day out they can't get out and go out of their minds. How would you like to be locked up twenty four seven? Now that is cruel sorry but it is..

Every one has their own agenda's how to look after their dogs and give them a really good home but some abuse this and I have no time at all for those.

As said above sounds like you have a great bunch there!

Julieann

I was advised and in fact bought my crate/cage from my breeder, who said that he was used to it and therefore to make him feel comfortable I should use it. I didn't like the idea, so I put it together with some nice bedding and used it as a bed with a door. My dog is 3 years old now and I have never shut the door. As soon as we leave the house he goes and gets into the cage and curls up and goes to sleep although he has the run of the downstairs, he prefers the cage to the sofas!. It's his space, his bed and he loves it!!

Cages, rolled newspaper(other post), and other training aids can be totally horrible for a dog in the wrong hands. Cages used properly are not the problem. It is the individual that can turn it into punishment and a bad thing. I encourage pet people to learn and properly use a cage. They can be an invaluable Puppy training aid. The cage used properly mimics and fulfills the dogs natural den instinicts. They should not be used to house animals all day long. I don't think it's a problem to put a puppy in a cage for a couple of hours when you can't be there for them.
A cage is a safe enviroment, puppies get into everything. Just like you use a collar and leash to protect them when you take them out, so can the cage be used until they learn what is off limits.My dogs love their crates because I use them correctly. Also helps if they ever(knock on wood) have to be caged overnight at the vets. If they are not used to it many dogs freak out.

every dog ive ever owned has been cage trained, im at home all day as i dont work, however i think that dogs need to learn time out, and also to have their own space, mine love theirs too, i also use them on benches, ive seen dogs lying on benches minding their own bussiness and passing dogs out of cotrol have flown at them ,also because of the different appearance of my breed if theyre left just benched theyre constantly pestered by the public, it must be unerving for a dog fastened in a bench to have a steady stream of strangers walking along and staring at it, the cage gives it a feeling of safety, providing theyve been used to one at home, i have mine out and about with me a lot BUT i pop them into a cage when it suits me, -making a meal-company-bitch in season, staying overnight at someones house-hotel etc, i think a cage helps with house training as most dogs wont soil their beds, but i also have them loose in the house and watch for the signs to pop them out, cages have their place if used properly and not just as a convenient way of collecting many dogs that cant be kept any other way,

I have crates for my dogs and they love them. In fact, Harvey, gwp, is in his now with the door open. It's his safe place out of the way where he can have a sleep.

I found it a safe place to leave him when he was a puppy whilst we were walking the other dogs. He couldn't chew anything or get himself into trouble.

They can be misused like almost anything you can buy and I never leave them in them when I am out.

Helen

I am neither for or against crates (when used CORRECTLY AND MINIMALLY). I have found the thread interesting as I have been debating whether to use one for the first time ever when my new pup arrives.

I have seen many posts recently on this board praising the use of crates BUT the advice has always been short and sweet and never really says HOW TO USE CORRECTLY - ie for SHORT lengths of time (by this I mean locking the dog in - not allowing free access). Most posters will apply commonsense when they read the cage posts BUT it is my opinion some would see it as a place to house the dog for too many hours of it's life. This thread has been excellent and I applaud Mattie for starting it as it will hopefully make posters aware of the issues that can arise. I believe that in future posts when use of crates is promoted we would all perhaps be wise to add a couple of extra sentances stressing it is not for locking the dog in but for a few hours a day - might seem obvious to us but not perhaps to some visitors to this site.
Sara :)

Well said Sara. Totally agree with you that we don't always explain ourselves fully and on this particular subject and having read Mattie and Leigh's posts re rescue I think we should go into more detail when advising anyone on using a cage. I also think if the companies who sell these cages also attached some guidelines on their use it would be beneficial too, ok not everyone will read the guidelines but even if 1 person out of 10 did then that's 1 more educated person.

Maybe the rescue societies who have more experience with the bad use of cages should put together some guidelines and hand them out to the companies selling these cages. Crufts would be an ideal time to do that. Of course the companies may not use them but it might be more attractive if the companies involved didn't have to put the wording together themselves. Just a thought :-)

The company selling crates called Midwest (sold in US), includes a clearly written explanation of how to use a crate properly. When giving advice on crating, or potty training, I have included sources to further check into for the particulars. Seeking more knowledge is always a good thing.

I know I'm tagging on a bit late for this debate but I just wanted to contribute. We bought a large cage specifically for our rescue beagle and from day one we referred to it as his 'bed'. The first night he howled, the second night he wimpered and since then he quite happily gets inside when we mention 'beddy-byes'. He sleeps in there from between about 11pm and 6am and is nice and cosy inside with a vet bed and fleece quilt. Being the sad being that I am, I often wonder if, on a Sunday evening, after all the doggy and human laundry's done, he enjoys getting into his clean bed (as we do upstairs)! During the morning when I'm at work he has a free run of the house and generally chooses to doze on the sofa and gets out into the garden via the dog-flap. I've noticed that sometimes when the house gets busy or there is a thunderstorm or fireworks, his cage is his place of refuge. It's tucked away under the stairs and always accessible for his comings and goings. I think it's a bit like us taking ourselves to our bedroom for a bit of peace and quiet.

LYH

Are your dog sounds really lovely. And his crate or bed whatever you want to call it, it's his space and feels safe there.

I don't like the people that lock their dogs in and leave them for hours on end to save the house being damaged then they should not have a dog? I am a firm beliver that if you have a dog you are their for him or her most of the day. Whilst we know every one has to work you have to balance that out with your dogs needs?

I rant on again... your all safe now!

Julieann and Molly

It's a bit off the subject of appropriate/inappropriate use of cages, and cages for toilet training I know, but having a cage large enough for an adult is useful if a dog is sick or injured. At present we have a seven and a half month pup recovering from surgery who is not allowed to play at all, and can only go out to toilet. I'm not happy about keeping the poor fellow caged so much, but at least the cage means that he can be with the other dogs, and is able to see everything that is going on in 'the body of the kirk'. Otherwise he would have to spend much of his time alone in a small room. I've also found the cage useful with dogs that were so ill that they did want to be in a room away from the others. They seem to appreciate being able to retreat into the 'cave' created by the open-doored cage draped with blankets.

Okay - I'm prepared to get jumped all over, and I know I'm entering this late, but I can only tell you of my own experience. 5 years ago I was with you - the idea of crating really turned me off - I just couldn't understand why. Then we got our puppy Chelsea. I don't believe 'every' dog can be crated, nor is it natural for 'every' dog, but there is an instinct to have a 'den' and this does seem to work in
a large majority of dogs.

I fought really hard against the idea of a crate until Chelsea (my whippet mix - then 6 months old) started chewing through the wall of our rented apartment. Not from anxiety but boredom. She had lots of toys, but she coudln't be bothered getting out of her bed, so amused herself chewing on the wall paper and skirting board.

Nick and I agonised over it, but decided that it was safer for her, for our apartment if she was able to be crated, so we went and bought the BIGGEST crate we could find. What swung us over finally was the idea that once she felt the crate was 'home' we could take her anywhere and she would always take 'home' with her. She would always have a place where she knew she coudln't get into trouble. Problem was it was sooo big even folded down it wasn't always practical.

Eventually she got to the point where she didn't need to be crated she was showing signs of not wanting to go in while I had to work (4 hours a day - ooh terrible to leave a dog for 4 hours!) so I tried her loose and she was fine. However, she was still destructive if left loose if we had to go out in the evening, but showed no signs of objecting to being crated in the evening. Another few months went by and she was then able to be left out in the evenings as well, and after a trip we just never put it back up.

When we got the puppy a year ago we didn't think twice about putting the crate up for her. While we are at work or out for the evening Chelsea is loose, Savannah is crated. We leave Savannah loose for short periods and she is fine, but she has no problem being crated - never made a fuss - as a matter of fact she took to it right off the mark. We give them stuffed kongs when we go out and that is the ONLY time they get stuffed ones, so our going out is associated wtih goodies. If we don't go out for several days (ie weekend or holidays) they get antsy and start to act like they want us to go - the second we pick up a kong after one of these 'breaks' they go psycho and are in bed and crate before we finish stuffing the kong.

Anyway, when we got out the crate, after not having been crated for over a year, Chelsea was the first one in building a nest and making her home. We bought a smaller crate for travelling and again, in the hotel Chelsea spends her time in the crate when we're there - and Savvy is in it if we go out. Same at the in-laws - Chelsea LOVES to be in it when everyone's about - though she is fine loose when we go out and the pup gets put in. So for her it is completely natural.

As for training her at 6 months to a crate which she'd never been in she took to it like a duck to water. We trained her to it over a weekend. We put her bed in there and every time she fell asleep on the first evening we popped her in so she woke up in the crate. Then we progressed to closing the door and she would wake up closed in. Then I popped her in closed the door and went to the bedroom - an hour later I came back to find her playing happily (just like a kid in a crib).

Never had a minute of trouble - wish I'd done it sooner. So even though she'd NEVER been crated she took to it instinctively and LOVED it in there. A training tool (or whatever term you wish to use) is only as good as the way you use it. We agonised for WEEKS before breaking down and buying the crate (yes I call it a crate) but within a week of using it and seeing how happy she was in it (YES HAPPY) we wished we had done it MUCH sooner. I will never not start a puppy in a crate.

It is, of course, our desire that they will outgrow the need for it and I look forward to the day I don't have one in my living room again, however, I will NEVER not start a pup out in one. I would rather come back to a happily crated pup than to a dead one!

And as for not having a dog is you can't stay home with it 24/7 then the same should apply to children. I do think it's unreasonable to expect that people never leave their dogs, and from reading some of these posts that is the impression I'm getting. I LOVE my dogs - they do almost everything with me including coming to work with me once a week - I do change a lot of stuff, but darn it - they WILL be left home alone for periods of time while I have to work or shop or maybe go to a movie. If that makes me a bad owner then I'll just have to accept it.

Wendy

HI WEndy

It's good too to hear such a success story...especially from someone who was originally against the use of a crate.

And by the way, from what i have seen you are an excellent owner, one of the best ;)

lindsay

Wendy

you are not a bad owner! Your a great dog owner by what I have read of your posting.

your one of the nice people who care and love your dogs and there welfare is most important to you and your partner.

I am lucky as I am home very day due to bad health (naff knees!) so I am here at home with Molly all day. She had her beds one in our room and in the living room and her basket of toys which she spreads out on the floor the minute you tidy up bless her...!

We do all sorts during the day to keep her active and not getting board. I really have had no need for the crate thing.

I do understand that those of you who use them is because the dogs like them as you say their home and space. GREAT!

Just don't like nasty people who miss treat their dogs for their own means like - fed up with you now "sod off" into your cage lock you in and don't bother with them for hours on end, or like some one posted much earlier how there dog was in the cage day and night and only let out for a kicking.. Thats what I mean how I don't like nasy people!

AND YOUR NOT ONE OF THEM!!!!!!!! Your a good owner to your dogs sensable and your love and care for them very much.

Julieann

Thanks. No - the one thing that is never done is use the crate as punishment. I don't agree with the 'time out' in crate - it's supposed to be a safe place for them - they can't associate it with bad things. They do both get put in if there's a workman here or something and they're not overly thrilled that they're being kept from playing with 'their visitor' but besides that it's all 'happy thoughts' associated with the crate.

Wendy

Thanks Lindsay [$ Juliann - DEFINITELY coming down off my soapbox now])

the best use ihad for a cage was when my bitches mother died.Now she was on her own after 6 years of always having another dog there.Idid,nt want to rush and get a substitute for her mum, but after 1 month of howling and depression, and would,nt be left alone i got a 11 week old bitch same breed.Now the fun started the older bitch hated her ihad to be very patient introducing them slowleywithout my cage i dred to think how i could have managed.

Two years ago, I rescued a Working Cocker Spaniel who was being kept for about 20 hours a day in a crate - muzzled!!!!! Reason? She was termed 'hyperactive'!!!!!! I persuaded her owner to give her to me for rehoming. That little dog now has a superb home where she goes 'beating' regularly, having been trained in gundog work by her owner as a hobby! She absolutely adores him, and him her and they are very much in demand on beats as she is so good! She has won trophies in scurries etc and we are all so proud of her - a far cry from her first 8 months of life!
But..........I still use crates myself and will continue to do so! I never leave mine crated for longer than 3 hours at a time, having the type of job where I can return home for (extended <g>) lunch breaks! My seven dogs are perfectly happy, 3 of them being crated if I am out and at night. Like the others, eventually, as they mature and become more trustworthy in the house, they will become 'un-crated'. The thing is, I come home - there's no damage, no mess! I am happy, the dogs are likewise happy cos I am happy! If the large crate in the kitchen is left open, the dogs and sometimes the cat, happily paw open the door and let themselves into it! For one of the dogs who is a shy feeder, the crate is invaluable for providing a stress free area in which to eat.
However, whenever I have recommended crates, it is always with clear guidelines as to how they should be used.