very true!

Hi Chloe
just my thoughts .
If someone really wants to or has to  neuter then why not the snip ,no castration, no pain.
  We have two cats one male one female that were done two days ago
the poor little girl is very sore and on antibiotics ,but the boy is as if nothing happened
However if he was castrated he would still be in pain  ,so why put an animal through this if not necessary
Mari

As far as I was aware Tom cats are always castrated to stop them spraying, as Tom cat urine is so offensive.  I had never heard of one being vasectomised.

Now this would be a viable option for male dogs, if birth control was the only reason for catration.  No change in behaviour or hormones to affect development.

I never heard of a vasectomy for cats either as they would still spray & have the male hormones & ability to mate(well all the guys I know that have had one had them to prevent conception not prevent sex !)

All the cats I have had done were castrated by removing the testes, lol our last cat using to do the spraying ritual but without any actual spray being produced

Its not just the mating the fighting over queens is a big problem as cat bites and scratches often become badly infected I remember my Aunties old tom had no ears at all by the end of his life and he reeked!

All 3 of my dogs are either castrated or spayed. I had my eldest GSD castrated due to male dog aggression. He also used to hump constantly, even growling at me or the kids if we tried to push him off. :(
My 2 girls were spayed because Storm was from a rescue. The contract I had required her to be done after her first season and Luca has a breed fault so I chose to have her spayed rather than run the risk of her escaping and having any unwanted litters.

Katyb. If you are to have Max castrated, have him done because it's what YOU want, not because others have influenced you either way :)

OH dear Brainless
we have never owned a cat before and so did not know about  them spraying urine.
all we wanted to do was to keep him with us  and not go off commuting .
and stop the little girl from having kittens, as they are both rescued from the local vet and ferrel cats are a big problem here .
So I guess we will have to wait and see what happens .
The vet who did it has  just recently  opened  his  practise He  spent years in America  ,so perhaps it is common practice there .
Mari

Are you sure he wasn't castrated ? They simply taken away the testes & leave the scrotal sacs I don't think they even stitch them up for some reason & the skin that is let simply withers away It is different to a dog castration, Cats are very susceptible to bad reactions to GA so it's a fast operation It is so long since I had a male cat done(the last cat died last year aged 18 ! & he was done at 4 months as soon as his tom bits were felt by the vet I think they are so smal they couldn't be stitched up. As the whole point is to stop the breeding & spraying & entire tom behaviour I can't see them just cutting & tying the vas deferens

I hope Moonmaiden's right because if he has just been vasectomised he will certainly still go off "commuting".  I'm sure he has been castrated actually because it can't be easy looking for those tubes in a little tom kitten!

Having had a good think I what happens is a slit is made in the sac wall the Testes removed & the Vas Deferens is either stitched or tied off leaving the tom looking as if nothing has happened but the scrotum then either heals up or withers away

I know my toms never seemed to be affected except they never really liked the vets LOL my little moggie Mouse the mini cat had to be handled with gaultlets on & he even bit through them LOl if he was just going for a check up I had to wrap him in a bath towel before the vet entered the exam room Good job he was a very healthy cat througout most of his life until the last couple of days before he went to the bridge at 19 years old

Moon Maiden i phoned vet and your right that is what was done
I was confused as he still had the look of a male lol
Mari

Thank god for that otherwise he would still be spraying Funny after 20 years the techinque hasn't changed ;)

Moonmaiden I am amazed at how fond of those two I am
They are really beautiful cats and very good ,toilet trained and very clean
No scratching just purring and happy
I have never owned a cat as never wanted one but my grandaughter wanted a kitten   so  I relented.
We only wanted one lol but as they
  were brother and sister we did not separate them .
I am charmed with them
Mari

My cousin has adopted two litter mates from the CPL & they are ex feral kittens.Since he has had them both done(bro & sis)they have totally changed no longer run went callers come & they spend hours playing with him, he's a younger disabled chap who lives on his own & they are his life. I haven't got a kit at present so share my friends goings on & she's in the states & has a maine coons who are lovely

i do miss my moglets

I was told a rig was an improperly castrated male, is that correct?

Yep dead right & having been the owner of one in my youth He ended up a companion horse who could not be ridden by even the most experienced rider(One rather famous Mr H  Smith did try to help but even he found him impossible to ride)can't remember why he could not be castrated properly but there was a medical reason

i was pleased when i saw this thread as i am in a quandry as to what to do with max. one day i think yes i will get him done and the next i think oh no i will leave him. i think i fit into daisys description of not an experienced dog owner but i have a decent amount of intelligence and i have listened to both sides of the argument. everytime i see the vet or vet nurses i get asked when i am going to have max done and last week was asked why on earth havent i had him done already (he is a 7month old chocolate labrador) my mum is of the opinion that if he isnt going to use them he doesnt need to keep them which i do kind of agree with but my mum would chop most human males bits off so i dont tend to listen to her. max will never be shown or bred from and we live in an area with a lot of dogs and i have four young children and as i said before am not a very experienced owner as although i grew up with lots of dogs max is my first dog of my own and i know horses better and as mentioned all of them well all the ones  i owned and looked after had been done i only ever looked after one stallion and it broke my toe! so all in all i dont know what to do for the best??!!! also max sees his 2 litter sisters most days and would miss them dreadfully if he couldnt see them for ages when they were in season

Katy

If you want to have Max castrated then do so, but I personally would wait until he was at least a year old & had stopped growing both physically & mentally(not that any of mine have ever grown up mentally ;)). However i know of people who have castrated dogs that have been ok & who have been done at an early age. I show my dogs & prefer them to be entire even though I could show them "done"

As with bitches what they have never had(ie a litter or being used at stud)they will never miss. just as long as it is the owners decision without pressure from vets or anyone else

I conside the promotion of castration by the veterinary profession to be very hypocritical.

Many members of the profession are now anti-docking because it is a 'cosmetic mutilation', however they are quite happy to promote another cosmetic mutilation as a 'must-do', ie neutering!
This is even being suggested as the next step after vaccination at only a few months of age.
In the USA many breeders even neuter their puppies at 8-weeks of age, before they leave for their new homes!

We have kept many entire males over the years, and two well used stud-dogs. None has ever caused a problem and when the bitches are in season, we make sure that they are kept well away from each other.

Too many people nowadays want to own a dog without accepting the responsibilites that the ownership entails. It should not be neccesary to ROUTINELY neuter either dogs or bitches. If there is a medical problem, then I have no problem with neutering. I do however think that there is very little justification for routine castration of a male dog, most pet males are unlikely to come across an in-season bitch unless they are allowed out on their own, or they are not securely fenced in their owners property.

This is no reason to castrate a dog! If one is not capable of confining a dog to their own premises, they should seriously consider whether they should be taking on the responsibility of dog ownership.
An unplanned litter is one of the less serious consequences of a straying dog, causing a vehicle to have an accident is a very serious result of dog straying and castration will not prevent this occuring.

Castration will also not train a dog, this is the responsibility of the owner and castration should not be seen as the panacea of behavioural problems caused by the lack of training.

When we sell our puppies, we supply a booklet that we have prepared explaining our reasons for not neutering a bitch at least until her third season and we recommend that dogs are never castrated. So far, after many litters, we know of only a few who have not heeded our advice and the entire male dogs are happy, well balanced members of the family without an over-riding sex drive.

Snomaes

I realise that people have very strong opinions on this subject, but I would just like to add my thoughts.

The vast majority of the posters here are experienced and responsible dog owners, many of whom breed and/or show.  They understand natural dog behaviour and take the appropriate steps to avoid unwanted matings.  Their dogs are well trained and do not cause problems, regardless of whether or not they are neutered.  However many dog owners are not as sensible or well informed, and IMHO that is where the problems arise.

We see quite a few clients who have decided to get a cute puppy on a whim, but aren't willing to put in the time and effort required.  At a year old the dogs are completely unmanageable (and these owners always seem to go for the larger breeds), and in these cases I would be in favour of castration.  Of course it isn't any sort of substitute for training, but in my experience it does seem to calm most male dogs to some degree.  One could argue that owners like these shouldn't have dogs in the first place, which I agree with in theory, but the fact is that they do, and at least if the dogs are neutered there is no chance that an unplanned litter will occur.  What worries me is that castration is viewed by many of these people as a cure-all for any sort of behavioural issue.  Clients arrive reporting that their 3 year old entire dog is dominant, disobedient and mounting everything in sight and expect that after the operation they will walk away with a perfectly behaved pet.  I try to explain that this isn't going to happen, and suggest training classes, but this usually falls on deaf ears.  Sadly a lot of these dogs end up in rehoming centres through no fault of their own, and it's left to someone else to pick up the pieces.

I have a 5 month old puppy, and after much deliberation have decided to castrate him in a few months.  There are several reasons for this.

1. He has an umbilical hernia which needs to be repaired sooner or later, so he is going to undergo an anaesthetic in any case.

2. He is purely a pet and I have no desire to show him or get involved in breeding.

3. I live in London so there are a lot of dogs exercised in a relatively small area.  We only have a small garden, and although it is as secure as I can make it, I could not say with 100% confidence that it would contain a fully grown whippet who was pursuing a bitch in season.

4. There are irresponsible owners around who walk bitches in season (idiots), and if Cashie is neutered then that's one less thing to worry about.

Anyway, I'm pretty much reiterating what others have already said, but I feel that neutering is a personal choice and in some cases is the correct path, although I would never advocate mass neutering for no reason.  I'm horrified by reports from the States about spaying bitches at 12 weeks, ( we are talking about the country that carries out kidney transplants in cats, but that's a whole other bugbear!)

One final thought, some posters have blasted vets for "money-grabbing".  I'm sure that there are unscrupulous practices out there, but speaking on behalf of my surgery, we don't regard neutering in that light.  We are a small 1st opinion practice (1 vet, 1 1/2 nurse), and if a bitch spay is booked in we do our best to ensure that no other ops are booked for that day, as a bitch spay is sometimes a long operation, and the bitch deserves our undivided attention from the minute she is admitted until she goes home.  The cost to the owner would never exceed around $160 (should be pounds, American keyboard), and this price includes all post-operative care.  By the time one adds up the vet's time, my time and the drugs and materials used, we don't make much profit.  For example, in that time we could have performed 4 cat spays and a few cat castrates, or about 20 consultations, all of which would be far more profitable to the practice.  We're not all completely money-orientated.

Anyway, just my thoughts...

Still doesn't excuse a lot(around 50%)of vets who want to castrate every puppy that comes their way even those they know are going to be show & possibly breeding dogs & if you turn down the offer they then lecture you on being irresponsible. One local vet lectures on the local radio all bitches spayed & all dogs neutered at least once a week & this from a vet who "accidently"castrated a dog in for having his hips X rayed only & who forgot to do the X ray(the dog was X rayed & scored  by another vet & yes he has a 1:1 hip score & had been a top winning puppy until the "accidental"snip) BVA excused him as he was under pressure-yep he had just the one op that day & the BVA forms were all filled in & on the clipboard attached to the crate door & after all GSDs all look the same !!!!(dark sable dog Tattooed & Chipped all details on the BVA form)& he had another one booked for the snip(total lie as the surgery records showed)As a gesture of good will the vet didn't charge for the castration ! & offered £150 for the cost of another puppy !(vet had seen some unregistered one in the local rag)Small claims court awarded owner the MAx amount they could £5,000 I think & costs & yes the vet hasn't paid up(the money was going to a dog charity-vet didn't & doesn't know this)Bailiffs will be visiting in the New Year(crafty Vet everything is in wife's name except for his nice new Porsche & Land Rover.)

I met the dog who is now being trained for WT/Schutzhund There is no chance of repeating the breeding as the bitch had a C section & a bad pregnancy(done at the breeders vets)What a loss to the breed & his owners who will not be getting another & hope he will enjoy their new interest in the working side

This is no reason to castrate a dog! If one is not capable of confining a dog to their own premises, they should seriously consider whether they should be taking on the responsibility of dog ownership

There ya go....*that* is exactly what I am talking about ;) I AM capable of confining my dog and not letting him roam and always have done. However, I have bought a bitch and do NOT have a large enough home to seperate them for the length of time needed during her season. Nor would I want to keep him/her in the kitchen as we do have neighbours and my breed can be very vocal when expressing their displeasure. Male dog never liked showing and will be used for working (which he loves).

I think that in the situation of mixed sex households you have no choice but to have one or the other done if you don't have the facilities to keep them apart. I had Phoebe spayed when her breeder could no longer have her in season and I think that on both sides there is justification (not that its needed) to neuter.

My post was about the generic popularity of castration really...not individuals circumstances and decisions. It just shocked me that so many people (about 25 now!) would recommend a dog to be castrated as a matter of routine - especially at ten months when I personally do not feel they have completed their growing.

Agreed :) I still wonder if it is the Vets who are the bottom of all this though ...does the average dog owner get talked into into spaying/castration when visiting their vets I wonder? Does the vet supply reasons? I am curious....

Well, I have had 2 different vets in the past 3 years. My first ones were very pro-castration. Every visit - right from the start of Will's puppy jabs they tried to get me to book him in. When he went to be hip scored they asked me if I wanted his eye doing (they suspected cherry eye - there was nothing wrong with it!!) and asked if I wanted him castrating whilst under! I stipulated no and even felt I had to put it in writing that they were only to x-ray him and leave the rest of him alone!

After that, and another incident with one of the horses, I changed vets and the new ones have never even suggested it. They spayed Phoebe at my request and have never even mentioned the C word - even when we have been in regarding a small lump Willis needs taking off his shoulder. Craig is more of a traditional vet and he very much believes that owners are capable of making up their own minds. He also feels that *some* people castrate on the basis its a bit of a cure-all micracle solution for normal male behaviour due to the fact its marketed as exactly that.

I feel very lucky with my vet, he never suggested we get Hudson castrated....he knew that we showed him and his wife used to show dogs so maybe that was what made the difference? He hasn't said anything yet about Delly either....

Fingers crossed :D

I've seen maybe a dozen vets over the last 23 years I honestly don't remember any of them asking, let alone suggesting, I had my bitches spayed which I have not tended to do until they were 7 or 8.
The vet asking if you wanted a castration done whilst under anaesthetic seems rather a sensible offer really, it may have been something you were considering and did not realise it could be done at the same time.

Really? even when I had made it perfectly clear on the 8 visits beforehand I would not be having him castrated?

Sounds more like a sales ploy to me.

I've read that castrating for behavioural reasons after 2 years old is fruitless (pardon the pun) because by then it's more a learned response. (on canine lifeline.co.uk). I wonder howmany vets would tell you this? My vet doesn't mention it but you can tell he doesn't approve of the boys keeping their bits.
When there's a bitch in heat I spend alot of time tempted to get two bricks and do it myself :D I do think about doing it for the same reasons as Melodysk but it's a hard one (again no pun intended). I have one boy who may be going to show abroad next year and we get alot of requests to use him at stud (he's still innocent...if it's going to happen it has to be with the right girl bless him). If I get him done then thats all out the window.
It's hard to determine whats best for the dog, because it is upsetting seeing males all distressed when there's a bitch in heat in the same house.
I'd need to be sure that it was for the dogs benefit and not my own. It is a hard desicion with so much conflicting advice and pressure out there.

Our vets have never mentioned it to us, though they know us well and know we are thinking of showing etc.

However friends of ours (who go to a different practise) used to get the third degree as to why their bitches weren't speyed every time they went to their vets - they explained they were going to have them speyed but only once they had matured, to which the vet replied that was utter rubbish and they earlier you had them done, the more beneficial to the dog. Our friends have since changed vets, whom were more than happy to wait until they had matured - I guess it depends on the individual.

I've only ever once had a male castrated and that was my staffy Archer.When we moved to our current house we had sooo much interest from people in him  being asked almost daily if we would use him at stud or sell him that I became very nervous and concerned as the sort of people asking were not the nicest type of people.I even had someone hanging around the house at night and decided that having him castrated and making sure everyone knew it might make him a bit less desireable.
It had no affect on Archer as he was 2 when it was done but I don't think I'd have it done again...unless for a medical reason
Archer

"This is no reason to castrate a dog! If one is not capable of confining a dog to their own premises, they should seriously consider whether they should be taking on the responsibility of dog ownership.
An unplanned litter is one of the less serious"

Sadly with 12000 healthy dogs being put to sleep a year (in Britain) I don't think some people are listening to this. We live in a throwaway society so why should dogs be any different---to some people

Unfortunately I have heard our vets discuss neutering with owners at a pups first vaccine :-(. When I got my first pup(almost 3 years ago now), they assumed that I would have him 'done' at 6 months. TBH, I wasn't 100% sure but I had it drummed into me that if they weren't  for show or breeding, then having them neutered was the thing to do. So, I had him done and regret it now. He gets harassed by other dogs who continually want to mount him and he has turned from a very friendly dog into one who now snaps at other dogs if he feels they have an ulterior motive ;-) I wish that I had at least waited until he was 18 months old. I have another boy who is 5 months younger and he is still entire (think they have given up asking me about neutering him). When I started planning another pup this year, I was wanting a bitch and I would have opted for a vasectomy for him rather than castration. As it turns out, couldn't find a bitch so got another male. I do hope to show this one but even if I don't, he will also be kept entire regardless of pressure from vets!!

<He gets harassed by other dogs who continually want to mount him and he has turned from a very friendly dog into one who now snaps at other dogs if he feels they have an ulterior motive>

I have heard this side-effect of neutering happening on so many occasions. One dog that I know of turned from a friendly and sociable dog into an agressive one because he was always being mounted by other dogs and learnt that attack was better than defence.

If only all the negative as well as positive points of neutering were explained to dog owners so that a decision could be made after consideration of all the facts.

Snomaes

But Frankie - are those people who cannot contain their dogs to their own premises very likely to listen to advice regarding castration? Not IMO. I can fully understand rescue centres neutering before rehoming - but I do think that those of us who are capable of keeping an entire male without allowing him to produce unplanned pups should be equally respected in their views.

i havent read all of this post but thought i would reply with my reasons, Jack is a sprocker (springer x cocker) he was an entire dog up until september last year, my lab bitch tess was due in season and i wanted to breed from her, with jack being a cross i didnt want him 'catching' tess with kids in the house it is hard to keep determined dogs separated, so before tess came into season i had jack casturated. Tess had her puppies and i kept a male from the litter, me and mum were having rows about tess, mum is house proud and couldnt stand the smell when tess is in season so i bit the bullet and had her spayed, Bruce is now 13 months old and i have no intentions of having him casturated, there is no need to.
at work Bruno the rottie has hip dysplasia, when Bo the lab pup came into season she took after her nan and had a 'silent season', bruno caught bo before we realised so bo had the morning after jab and bruno was booked in for casturation, bo was then put in kennels until she had finished, when she had the all clear she was then spayed, but Bo nearly died whilst being spayed a routine op nearly killed her, now none of the other dogs are being spayed unless completley necessary, and that is how it should be,
those are my reasons and views and im sticking to them
tanya