Hear Hear Amos - your said alot of what I was thinking.  I also realise people will lose their jobs, homes, way of life etc, but that has happened in many other circumstances (even where no killing is involved) - miners for a start and so on.  Also, it has been said on here that although it has been banned, it will not stop - so are those of you who say that condoning breaking the law?  Also it is not very democratic to say just because that law does not suit you you it is not fair/should not be obeyed. Many laws do not suit everyone, but it would make a mockery of law and order if we just pick and choose which to live by.

One other point - I had an email this morning saying that all hunting of wild animals has been banned by this bill, including deer, mink, etc.  If these animals were still being hunted and they are not vermin, then what argument was used to justify hunting them?

Fiona

>One other point - I had an email this morning saying that all hunting of wild animals has been banned by this bill, including deer, mink, etc.  If these animals were still being hunted and they are not vermin, then what argument was used to justify hunting them?

You obviously mean hunting with dogs and not hunting in general ?  I also thought mink were vermin as they kill off wildlife such as otters.  Deer round my way have never been hunted by dogs, only by a stalker sat high up in his "nest" - maybe they will ban him soon too :( 

I just worry if my dog gets hold of a rabbit ...... 

That is another aspect of the fox hunting fraternity which is irritating, the way in which they spread the myth that Fox hunting is just the start, it will be deer stalking, fishing etc next. There has been no indication of this intention at all, its just scare mongering to try to rally a bit more support. Deer stalkers use dogs but only to find the deer after they have been shot there is a considerable difference.
Amos

>Deer stalkers use dogs but only to find the deer after they have been shot

Really? They're rotten shots then.

JG
Most deer are shot early in the morning or at dusk and however well shot they rarely drop where they stand. A dog is invaluble for finding them in the thick undergrowth and often a stalker will stay in the high seat incase another comes along and the exact spot the first one was shot is difficult to pinpoint some time later. It has nothing to do with being a poor shot.
Amos

All I can say is that on the borders estate where I used to live and work, the keepers didn't use dogs when they were culling deer.

A big annual cull on an estate is a bit different that is not really stalking is it. I am talking about controlling deer in the woodland and forests.
Amos

It wasn't an annual cull, Amos. It happened whenever necessary. The minimum deemed necessary were taken. Sometimes they didn't take enough to ensure good health in the remainder, so more were taken later.

The only deer stalking I've seen done is one keeper with a couple of paying 'punters' in the Highlands, on foot, no dogs, stalking red deer on the open hillside. No cover to obscure the view of the quarry, or its route if the shot has been poor and it hasn't dropped.

I agree with Amos! And ive heard what they do with the hounds when they're too old to hunt ( 6 years apparently )!! they also " do away " with the pups that dont make the grade in the same way - so don't tell me they care that much about their dogs , i'll never believe them.

What, like all the animal shelters do with surplus dogs when they have another influx of unwanted pets (usually just before Christmas and the summer holidays)?

Amos, the League Against Cruel Sports has denounced angling as cruel. That will most certainly be targeted.

I doubt it JG ..it is THE largest participation sport in the UK ;) Not good for votes :D

Targeted by the antis, I meant Mel! Even I don't believe our politicians are stupid enough or have enough belief in animal welfare to take on the anglers! ;)

Blondebird there are some deer hunts that use dogs to chase the deer until it is so exhausted that it just stops running.  It is then shot.  If it does not get shot quick enough, then sometimes the dogs attack it.  This is the type of hunting that is also now banned.  If these deer are classed as vermin or need controlling, why do people breed them and then invite people to pay to shoot them?

I think there is no escaping the fact that some people enjoy killing these animals (foxes, deer, etc).  I can understand the thrill of the chase and all that, but I still think it is morally wrong to chase an animal to exhaustion and then kill it by whatever method. 

I do feel that its a shame that you feel all the activities associated with hunting (country fairs, etc) will now die out, but I don't see why that HAS to be the case.

Fiona

Alexanders said>>>If these deer are classed as vermin or need controlling, why do people breed them and then invite people to pay to shoot them?

Deer that are bred (farmed) are for meat (presuming you are in UK?). Deer that are shot are NOT farmed deer!!!

Yes Sam I am in the UK.  The site on the web I looked at was inviting people to go and shoot deer on their estates.  They provide the dogs it says and then goes on to say how the deer will fall or run off (in which case you need to follow the bloodtrail) depending on whether you shot it in the stomach, or heart or just clipped it (depending on how good a shot you are it says).  It boasts about how its deer are 'trophy' quality.  I doubt any reach old age from what it says.  When I said they are 'bred' I didn't mean farmed, but I do think animal husbandry should be a bit more humane than just letting any old Tom, Dick or Harry have a few pot shots at the animal in question.

To Michelle, I have followed a hunt once - a long time ago I admit and I went point to point also with a friend (and I enjoyed both I have to say).  However, I still remember the gruesome stories I heard about the blood from foxes tails being rubbed across the forehead on a first kill.  The people I went with were 'animal lovers', but I still remember my friend smacking and smacking her puppy (Jack russel) because it kept mouthing her and 'it had to learn'.

I can't help feeling that supposed animal lovers should recognise how wrong it is to get pleasure from the torture and death of an animal, whether it is one they like or not.

Fiona

well you wont be enjoying any more point to points now & sadley nor will anyone else.
at country shows who do you think arranges it,stands at the gates taking the money.
at our show this year all the childern come into the main ring & play with the hounds,there are always a few hounds that come into the crowd to try to get a sandwhich,how lovely is that
who do you think will help deer or foxes that are injured,they will die a slow painful death with no hunting to keep the numbers healthy
no  i dont like foxes,& i like the fat bored ones sitting in a sanctuary even less,almost as much as i dont like the fact that some deer are so tame in those places that they come up for a fuss,this is not how i like to see british wildlife
do you think the huntsman who cares for his hounds everyuday & knows each of them by name is not a animal lover?

And lets not forget - who will pick up fallen stock? Infact - who will be around to euthanise horses - because vets here will only use the injection and thats not appropriate for all?

Can you explain to me why these shows can no longer take place if hunting is banned please?

I have seen a post on this thread that says gamekeepers in some places simply shoot any old or injured animal (deer) humanely.  They are very experienced and so can normally do it in one shot.  I assume they could also do this for foxes.  Does your concern for these old suffering animals extend to rabbits, birds, etc?  Even humans sometimes have to suffer before they die, that is Nature.  In respect of caring for hounds making a person an animal lover, I couldn't possibly say without seeing/meeting him/her.

Fiona

Just out of interest Fiona - have you read the Burns report?

because the hunts arrange them & run them,who else is goiung to run them?
supose the antis could cos they will be out of a job now,or tony blair cos he will be out of a job soon,& he knows all about the countrysde!
did you not realise everytime you go to a countryshow you are supporting hunting?

But if people like them so much, surely they can still take place?

Email sent! LONG LIVE HUNTING!

its just actually a really sad day for all true country people,& anyone that dosent want to live in a country where we actually have rights to live as we want to.
TB has no idea!
still shouldnt think P charles & boys are going to be too impressed! maybe the queen will over rule it!

i hope all antis will be prepared to offer a jobleess foxhound a home

i for one will miss the counrty shows & fairs & point to pionts & terrier shows that go hand in hand with hunting.

weve had antis here,put poison down for the hounds & wires out to cut the horses legs,obviously real animal lovers,

>weve had antis here,put poison down for the hounds & wires out to cut the horses legs,obviously real animal lovers,

That's par for the course for a lot (not all, by the way) of the antis. Broken glass over the ground, beating hounds with hefty sticks - even baseball bats - these are the actions that the government supports and takes heed of. The three peaceful Countryside Marches were completely ignored.

i remeber at one boxing day meet,our joint master at the time,who had to be 80plus then ,was trying to give his annual speech,over 20 lunatics screaming & being abusive,it made me sick that they should be so disrecspectful to this lovely old man that fought in the 1st world war & has dedicated his whole life to his hunt & support of the countryside, anyway it turned out quite funnily cos they were all shouting "ban the hunt"-chanting it,then someone from the crowd shouted out "ban social security" & there was deadly silence from them for a couple of seconds! dont think any of them had worked a day in their lives.

LOL!!

We had the same at the Boxing Day hunt - throwing stuff and scaring the horses. Even being bitchy about some womans weight on a dales pony LOL!! :D They've even been known to follow folk home and try to beat them up! Don't you just love the great unwashed brigade (not).

>Even being bitchy about some womans weight on a dales pony

Did you hear Tony Banks MP on Radio 2 this lunchtime?! He called the woman from one of the countryside organisations (not the Alliance) a liar, and advised her not to go hunting because she'd never find a horse big enough to carry her!

The trouble with the sabs is that they have no idea what they are talking about ..and THAT is the reason they have to resort to violence and swearing. The moral high ground that they think they are on is very dangerous ;)

Thats about right. Along with comments of that other idiot regarding the House of Lords yesterday! I'm hearing on another site that a couple of top lawyers are saying that legally the ban will be overturned before it gets to the stage it can be enforced.

And wasn't there a Labour back bencher yesterday on Radio 4 implying that anyone involved in horses is "posh" LOL

Another lovely email to Mr Blair. I'll get my OH to do it later as well from his account :)

Chloe, if you want to know how low the antis will sink, then let me tell you what I saw (And photographed!) whilst I was one of the official press corps at yesterdays protest. One was carrying a banner syaing "Hunter kills Hunter...now thats real pest control"

I thought that was the sickest thing ever, it pertains to a child shot in Devon whilst lamping foxes last week. The woman holding the banner should hang her head in shame....I wonder if she a mother herself?

OMG! Taking pleasure in the death of a child? And they call hunters 'scum' ...

Of course, the irony would have been lost on them wouldn't it? IF they had been hunting with hounds rather than lamping , that poor child would still be alive :(

Thats disgusting.

My friend also told me of certain police acts yesterday - involving them picking up barriers and throwing them into the crowd of peaceful protestors?!

that tv footage of the police was disgusting,it made me cry! hey but its totally justified to save a few mangey manky flea riddled,foxes of course

And on Radio Solent this morning we had a mum worried about her policeman son who had been hit on the head by a piece of scaffolding by a hunt supporter...

I read in the paper a few fireworks were let off too. Surely that can't be right? That's really dangerous.

Lindsay
X

Don't the police have helmets?

Must have done but it sounded as if his helmet had been knocked off... :( 

Lindsay
X

At least he had the protection in the first place - did you see the way those batons were being used??!

I did and i do feel the police were over zealous. However i've seen the same happen at plenty of other demos too. Some supporters were very upset to be in the melee, as they wanted it to be more peaceful, and some others did start to throw things at the policemen which may have been when the trouble erupted. Again, both sides were to blame in my view...

Lindsay
X

Personally, I think the police panicked and reacted badly - they knew that if it was going to erupt in violence then they were in big trouble with that amount of people there.

"dont think any of them had worked a day in their lives"

Michelle, why do you seem to think that everyone who is opposed to hunting is unemployed?  I think this is probably where a lot of bad feeling comes from.  The sort of argument

"its just actually a really sad day for all true country people,& anyone that dosent want to live in a country where we actually have rights to live as we want to."

just shows to me the sort of attitude that many people feel the huntsmen/riders have - why shouldn't I do it if I want to.  Big game hunters in Africa felt that way too, but it didn't make it right.

Fiona

Fiona, let's forget about stereotypes. The antis are no more unemployed dole-scroungers than hunters are aristocracy. There are some of both, and all shades in between, on both sides.

because its a small town,so i know who the dossers are!alot of people dislike hunting but NOT everybody gets pleasure in going out of their way to spoil some one elses day,just people with nothing better to do!!!

controlling vermin in this country CAN hardley be compared to indiscriminate hunting of big game in africa,if you think its anything like the same,it seems youve got two years to get out on a hunt inthe uk so that you see the differance

Michelle my point was not that it is the same, but that Big Game hunters would argue that what they were doing was okay because they were killing tigers/whatever because they were killing livestock or destroying crops.

Fiona

So killing an endangered species is, in your eyes, the same as exterminating vermin??

Some people living near tigers etc would like to see them dead to protect their cattle, I suppose in their eyes tigers could be seen as vermin. It all depends on where you are standing ;) but of course foxes aren't endangered.

I don't see foxes as cute and cuddly, but as part of our wildlife.

Lindsay
X

No, the reason given for killing is the same!  The species were not endangered anyway until men started to hunt them!

We have foxes tearing open our rubbish and two of my Mums cats have been killed by foxes, but I don't Hate them - that is their nature.

Fiona