Hi Gwen :-) I do indeed agree with much of what you say and I do not advocate rushing off to the other extreme without any knowledge.  :-) I am trying to make the point that if the breeds we love are to continue we need to ENCOURAGE and foster the young people who come to this site and not rush to criticise or doubt their sincerity,put them off or chase them away. What part of my advice to 'attend shows,look at the dogs go round the benches,talk to breeders,join the breed club, read all you can and be prepared to wait for the right dog' was the wrong advice?( On the locked thread on breeding) Some people did not stop to read it before jumping in. If you buy a bitch and wait ten years to breed as one person suggests the bitch will be to old :-)  I am amazed at the personal messages I received on this site from people who feel my advice has been ok and feel that some of us want to help the next generation of young people to breed top quality healthy dogs. After all, without them there won't be any quality dogs at all, only puppy farms :-(
Best wishes Gwen :-)

Hi< have noticed you mention a locked post on breeding, unfortunately it must be one I missed.

Must say waiting to 10 years to breed  is not something I have done or would expect, though I would hope that tyhe would be breeder would be working with the help of someone with the personal knowledge of the pedigree for at least that length of time )the first 3 generations).

I bred my first litter in my breed (though had shown a bitch in another breed earlier) when she was 3 years old, but I did so with the full backing of her breeder (at the time over 30 years experience, and her sires over 40 years).

I thik all that most of the regulars who advise caution and a lot of thought to the responsibilities of breeding, is that you need to go into it with eyes wide open and as much knowledge as possible, as it isn't like getting a recipe wrong, and all you have wasted is the ingredients, you involve other people and families when you breed a litter.  You also have an effect on society as a whole.

When I bred show rabbits I could please myself, and could eat the mistakes and any problems were entirel6 mine.  If I didn't have homes for the babies I didn't want to keep then they went in the pot.

It is still there if you go and look on the breeding page... 'breeding advice to a guest' :-) Please do read it,you will understand more about this thread.

brainless your post on rabbits did you kill them yourself before putting in pot? I could not kill a rabbit sorry find it hard someone who loves pups could kill rabbit im shocked

Yep I did kill my own.  Was taught by the old hands that you had no business keeping rabbits or poultry if you didn't know how to kill and dress them for the table.

Mind you there was no way I could kill my show stock.  I was fortunate that the breed I kept the markings were visible at birth, so their futures were mapped out then.  They got fed and cleaned out, but not made pets of, unlike the adults.

maybe im a wimp but i could not kill any animal even if i had to starve

I would rather kill an animal than let it suffer longer than necessary.

Reddoor :-)  I would imagine with all the good intention of the world if you ask a good breeder for a good bitch "just" to breed then you will not find them forming a queue to give you one.

Do you not have a good bitch if you have owned the breed for 40 years? Why do you need to buy one in now? Just wondered?

I don't think anybody really strongly disagrees with people breeding if  it is for the 100% right reason, however nobody regardless how much you want to give people a break should say it is OK to bred from dogs as a living can you see that point?

Hello! have been off & about this weekend so have missed all of this!

in showing im sure that there are people that show that want to win as opposed to really caring about there breed,

im sure that there are people that dont show that care & love there breed & are knowlegable & responsible!

you could breed a sound dog that may not be "a show prospect"in anyway,but could still make a exellent pet

weather you agree with breeding purely for the pet market is another issue,but people ARE put off going to show breeders,then what happens is that they buy from puppy farmers or pet shops or the person down the road who as a litter.
if a person like reddoor wants to breed good quality dogs with advise & backup to her new homes & health test all her dogs then REALLY GOOD LUCK to her,id be happy to buy a puppy from her!

Dont tar everyone with the same brush!

It isn't reddoor wanting to breed that has sparked this topic, as from what he/she tells us they ahve had many years experience in dogs.

There was a post from a y9oung lady who wanted to buy land and breed from a good bitch after health tests, but didn't eant to show.

Some people thought that sort of breeding, purely for pets was not the way it shpuld be done.

Thank you Brainless  :-) (though obviously this is not so cos you went back and read the Guest Breeding  post :-P ) I think what this all proves is that we should all read  what the initial post actually says and not comment on what we THINK it says then go on to totally ignore other peoples answers and pretend they did not say anything useful. Posting on here can be a bit like talking to a  person and they pretend you never spoke to them :-D

Must admit I tend to prefer to address the topic rather than the poster in long discussions to keep things general and not personal.  We all can put across our point of view and the reasons for it, and then accept that as adults others will take from the discussion and opinons shared what they will to form their own.

Hallelujah Brainless!  That's the way this board has run for all the years that we've been here.  Don't see any reason why it should change now!
I don't see why some feel the need to question every reply that's posted.

..that's great Val and explains a lot  :-)  you don't bother to read the posts only the topic which may be generalised and you form an opinion on what you have not read .. :-D

Brainless re. your previous post (and Vals) :-) If say the topic is say 'Black dogs' how do you know if the poster is for or against black dogs if you only 'address the topic ' and don't  read what they have posted? How can you have 'a point of view and a reason for it' at all if you have not read the first or the the subsequent posts? I am not being pedantic but am intrigued how you can do this? Surely a long discussion is just that because people have taken the time to read the posts to form an opinion. I also thought this was a 'forum' being a meeting place where discussions are held and views exchanged not just for a few but everyone, old members and new alike?

The topic as I understand it from the post and subsequent discussion, not the topic title :D

The written word is open to interpretation/misinterpretation and this is when sometimes things go awry, not from any wish by posters to be bloodyminded :D  (or so I like to beleive!)

Also these topics and posts come up on search engines when people are doing research, so it is useful to expand on the original question in order that others interested in the subject matter can get an idea of views on a particular subject.

For example buying puppies from pet stores.

Many members of the public can see nothing inherently wrong with this.  It isn't until it is explained that no caring person loving their dog and breed would be party to selling a litter wholesale, to be resold to people they will have no knowledge or contact with.  Therefore it goes without saying that breeders supplying the whloesale pet market are unlikely to be as caring as the pups desrve.  This may mean that they show little care in ensuring they are breeding the best puppies with regard to health, temperament, or conformity to the breed standard.

When I have done my stint on the Discover dogs booth I have had quite a few owners come to see me who got their first dog through a big puppy supermarket, and how now that they have him and love him can't imagine what sort of person could sell their puppies this way, but they didn't understand this at the time they bought him. 

Sadly a lot of the pups bought this way are not so lucky as with owners buying on impulse with no knowledge of the chosen breed, many are discarded, typically at 8 months to two years, which all experienced dog owners know is the challenging adolescent stage in dogs.

So I see the role of those answering posts on this forum as two fold, one answering the actual question, and two providing information and views for those wishing to learn about a given topic.

..ah I think I see Brainless  :-)  what you meant to say was you prefer to address 'The topic in general' rather than 'individual posts'? Is that it ? I am still a little vague about how one can do this because individual posts may contain totally different interpretations of a topic and I think my 'Black dog theory'  still applies ;-)   I do see your point and agree with you about 'expanding on a topic' . May I deduce from this you agree with me it is not a matter of 'questioning every reply that is posted' as someone here said... (assuming  one has read them :-)) .....but engaging in a lively and thought provoking discussion ?  Best wishes Brainless, I appreciate your reply :-) I think we understand each other, I look forward to many more lively debates.. :-D

:D Sure we shall :D

If you breed for temperament and to improve the breed I am not against breeding my rescue is full most of the time with labradors  but not from careful caring breeders but from puppy farms I cannot be against careful breeders as i am one myself but its 7 years since we had a litter but only because we didnt have a nice enough bitch and then when we did she sadly died.
so if you have a quality bitch and use a decent dog then go for it because if people dont breed for the good of any breed what will be left ?

Thats nice to hear for us first time breeders, you mentioned that your rescue is full from puppy farms, do you mean the people who bought them bringing them to you, or the breeders of these places bringing them to you because they cant sell them.

the people who bought them

Why what was the problem with the puppies a general clue!!!

I do not condone breeding willy nilly if people breed for the good of  a breed then ok but if not no,you dont need to breed multiple litters to be puppy farmer ! we were all first time breeders at one time as long as we learn and go for good of the breed then in my book that is fine
but dont breed just cos you think money is in it because it isnt

Hi woomeg, :-)  sadly some of the pups from PFs have serious health and temperament problems partly due to breeding (ie. bitches from poor stock mated every season and used as breeding machines) and partly due to the conditions under which the pups are raised including diet and poor hygene. I know a lady who recently rescued 2 bitches of my breed, they must have been brood bitches past their best, I am told these are often knocked on the head and dropped in a slurry pit when of no further use. These two ended up in a sanctuary and are now running free outside for what is probably the first in their lives. They have eye problems, have lost teeth and are very timid but they are getting better and there little characters are begining to show through. I will be contacting this lady soon for an update and more pictures.

..the dogs Mattie is talking about in her sanctuary are dogs that have been sold on to the public.. They go from the farms to pet shops ..or to people who  are 'agents' for the farmers and take in the litters to sell. When these puppies are sold to the public and  develop health problems (huge vets bills) or behaviour problems, the people who have purchase the puppies no longer want them or can't cope with them and they end up dead somewhere or in a sanctuary. :-(

Not all dogs that are coming through our rescue are from puppy farmers we have a small percentage from elsewhere  but the main bulk of dogs that come through are backyard breeders and puppy farmers.
I would say to anyone considering breeding for the first time think about it , why do you want to Breed? because no matter how careful people are at selecting homes for their pups there are no guarantees that the pups will be in that home forever,we currently have two young labs in one is 7 months one is ten months the ten month old was bought when the people were advised by us to get an older dog against our advice they went for a  8 week old pup and hey presto months later the pup is here in rescue,the other came because owner realised he hadnt the time to dedicate to the pup both these pups are from commercial  kennels
thats just this week next week there will be more this is the time of year also when we get Christmas puppies and think about it ! its holiday time !
So unless you are prepared to give backup to your puppy buyers ie: take dog back if they find they cant keep the dog,If you are doing it for the money and not to produce a decent type of dog,if you do not want to use the healths schemes,and if you know nothing about pedigrees then dont bother.

also how many of you support your breed rescues? its ok being passionately in love with your breed go to crufts,spend an arm and a leg on transport show entries etc.. but think  for say  A fiver a month or ten pounds a year you could keep breed rescues going and know you are giving a bit back breed rescues pick up the peices of all these unwanted dogs lives and set them up with a new life but phone cost alone are expensive.

To Highlight what I have just posted the phone just rang and it was a lady asking could she bring in her two year old choc male reason My husband doesnt get on with him anymore :( :( :(

Going back to the original thread, surely in certain circumstances it is a positive thing for some non - show goers to become breeders. Of course they should be the right kind of people, and they should be producing puppies for the right reasons, and hopefully would produce some show quality puppies. But when it is suggested, as it has been here, that crossing may be necessary to introduce new blood, then surely it means that the "show breeders" have failed the breed by jumping on the bandwaggon to use the biggest winner at stud, thus reducing the gene pool. This is one of the biggest problems in some of the smaller breeds, when there are no doubt very good and healthy representatives of the breed from lines that never see a show ring.

:-D

Actually it is the opposite there are more lines that never see the showring in the popular breeds, though the quality is often poor in some bred purely for commercial reasons.

In the smaller breeds numerically the problem is that those people seriously involved with the breed are all limited to how many dogs they can keep, and need in fact to attract new breeders, but only if they are wanting to help the breed.

There are lost of beautiful examples of the breed, many with positive traits that would benefit the breed, and they are in lovely homes where the owners have no interest in breeding or showing, and some of them have been persuaded to havge their lovely dog neutered before they realisd that they might like to get more involved with the breed.

In my own breed we often plan lovely litters, and then find no-one is interested in taking things further, though it is great when they have lovely homes.

Breeders make huge investments in importing new blood to keep the breed afloat, so basically I disagree.

The main reasons for lack of genetic diversity is lack of people serious about the breed.  Many commercially bred pups are in fact constant repeats of the same parents, in the same way or worse thatn the popular sirte syndrome in the show ring or even the field.  A puppy farmer will keep one makle to sire all his litters, why waste money on more?

Reddoor, do you go out of your way to be difficult....or does it come naturally??

liberty