Hi,

Sorry do get him BVA Scored and then takes these to CAMVET,also use a vet who is well used to positioing hips and had done plenty of hipscore xrays (very important)I know you probably already know this.My thoughts and heart goes out to you memories come flooding back of Ben.

Briony

Hi Chloe
I was just wondering if there was any update on Willis yet? How's he doing?

Kay

Hi

Thank you for your post - and thank you for keeping it constructive :)

My vet will be doing the hip x-ray under a heavy sedation, Will won't be fully under. I have also taken your advice and will be getting the hips scored by the BVA - I have arranged it with my vet this morning.

Having talked to the vet yesterday, the initial course of action will be to supplement him with glucosomine <sp> to see if that helps. I will also put some research into  as suggested, once I know the extent of it.

You also hit the nail on the head. I feel I have been denied the right to claim I have all the ticks in the box, from buying from a breeder who doesn't hip score.

One day at a time eh - be interesting to see the results next week.

Does anyone know if I can get info on my breeder through the kennel club - ie previous scores and how many litters the stud sired for example?

Thanks Kat
C :)

Chloe,

Email me direct and I will give you all the hip scores ............ marina.jeyes@siemens.com

M.

Actually a friend has lent me the recent KC breed records supplement for the Hound Group.  We were both astounded byt the Beagle Hip Scores in this issue (I guess they would be fairly representative)  there were 6 dogs scored with two fifferent kennel afixes, 2 with one and four with the other. 

The total scores were: 37, 23, from the one affix and 12, 16, 60 and 58!  Like you, and probably the breeders I would have thought them a breed unlikely to have problems in this area.  I think all breeds should be scored.

I've just been through Will's pedigree to find that several matings in his lines have produced dogs with high scores. Although his sire has not been tested, a bitch from the same litter with the same birth date, scored 20. From what I can see, the majority of dogs have been scored because of suspect hips, with very very few scoring good low scores.

There are several other connected matings that have produced high scoring dogs and bitches, all through the pedigree.

Very, very interesting reading.

Good Lord Chloe not good reading then.

Hope Willis is okay at the vets.

Karen

True - but at least I can stop worrying about whether I was feeding him right :rolleyes:

;)

I never thought for a moment it was your feeding you care to much to feed incorrectly :D

Makes me think about my breeds hip scores though.

Has your breeder got back to you yet,  and do you know anything regarding the rest of the litters hips?

Karen

I would never have thought that you were feeding him wrong Chloe - no way.

Gina x

Hi Chloe, to be honest I think it will be a while before you stop worrying about the what ifs & maybe this, that or the other but here`s a link for glucosamine that you can read up on & a link for VitC as well :)
http://www.activexamerica.com/synflex/
http://www.syn-flex-glucosamine-for-arthritis.co.uk/
http://www.belfield.com/article9.html

Christine, Spain.

I wouldn't call 20 exactly high.  the Police and Guide dogs are happy that a dog with a score of 20 can lead a full working life.  It is a functionally normal hip.  Though obviously the closer to 0 the better, but few creatures are born that perfect.

I'm not bothered about perfect...I'd just prefer a few lower scores in Will's breeding. 29 is not the highest that appears under that particular breeding either. Either way - its a pitiful amount of dogs that have been tested - so I stand by my original point....how can they possibly know the full extent of HD in danes when they refuse to face it and get their dogs tested?

Hi Chloe,

Your absolutely right,my personal opinion all breeding dogs should be hipscored whether there is a problem in the breed currently or not.
For some breeds to say hips are not a problem you won't know for generations down lines what is happening before it's too late,then takes years to try and re address the problem.
Whether its big breed or small toy breeds I think both sexes of any breed should be scored
so we have more data can't see why any breed would object unless they are worried and rather say its not a problem in our breed and sweep under the carpet .

Briony

They just don't want to face the fact that they may have to keep several big dogs that can't be used because they have bad hips. If a breeder has a stud that fits the standard and does well, and they keep him on until he's old enough to score, and then find he has bad hips, they are stuck with him. And its a big risk with a dog the size of a dane - don't forget, a lot of these breeders have in excess of 5 dogs, and some in excess of 20!

Hi,

Chloe I show my Goldies ,the bitch I hope would be my foundation bitch , the hipscore was too high on one side due to trauma I decided even though my vet and I are satisfied it was an injury when she was 6 months (saw it happen) has low scores behind her i'm not breeding off her,despite doing very well in the ring for us.
I currently have 3 Goldies my latest bitch has been brought in as my new foundation subject to hips  eyes etc and if i'm not satisfied with her we will think again  for our foundation bitch.My young dog just passed his eyes and will be hip scored after xmas and only be used at stud when i'm satisfied his hipscore is good enough to use and i'm satisfied with any bitch is used on her score is good enough.
Too many people in my opinion want to run before they can walk and use their dogs even if the scores are not quite what they were wanting and don't want to have toget another dog in etc just my opinion and also what you said above is true.

Briony

I agree with you there entirely!!!!  Just pointing out that a sc ore of 20 (especially in a large breed with all the skeletal development that happens quickly) is not a BAD score.

I well remember a nice lady in our breed hoping to breed a first litter from her nice bitch.  she had her scored and the result was 14, and her own vet said it was too high to breed from!!!  (our breed mean score vacilates between 13 and 14).

The situation you should hae is generations of scored ancestors, and then a breeder can assess whether breeding from a slightly above mean score bitch or dog is a valid thing to so based on the ancestry and their scores and what they have produced.

I would agree with all the other and have Willis' Hip Xray scored under the official scheme.  Your average vet can be way out on orthopaedic diagnosis.

Best case scenario would be that he has Panosteitis (wandering lameness) a condition of fast growing young sdgs (more often male for some reason), which they grow out of.

A new owner in my breed seeking was told by their vet (whose experience was with large breeds such as Rottis) that his Elkhound pup of 5 months had OCD (a condition not normally found in the breed), and was convinced of this viewing the x-rays.  As the owner was insured I suggested they ask for a referal to a specialist, who categorically ruled out OCD, and diagnosed Pano. 

Good point regarding the scores.

I will be getting him scored properly by the BVA. I understand the point regarding vets and hips, but I know by looking at him that things are very not right :( Even if its not HD, I've learned a valuable lesson about danes!

Oh I do hope that the result for willis' sake is manageable, lots and lots of fingers crossed here!!!

Poor lad! What first aroused your suspicion Chloe?

Strangely enough, it was taking pics of him to send to my breeder and my friend. He has always been funny when you run your hand down his spine...he kind of drops away from the pressure, but when I was trying to make him stand I noticed how he couldn't stand four square. Around the same time, his movement when trotting and running took a downturn - he started swinging his legs out to the side and bunny hopping with his back legs.

He has also been quite difficult to keep weight on recently...and has started lying down a lot more. He won't go for a walk with Phoebe now because he clearly finds playing with her painful, and will sit or lie down to avoid it. Finally, I playfully tapped his bum to move him out the way the other day, as you do when you go to walk past, I barely touched him and he yelped. It was the same day he had sneaked upstairs (not allowed now), and having come down, took himself off into the corner and lay down (which is a typical sign he's in pain).

He has developed a characteristic stoop with the back legs, and has a massive swagger when he walks.

These symptoms come and go in severity, and are worse in the cold weather.

He found it painful to have his hips manipulated by the vet, and certinaly, the stooping got worse afterwards. Fingers crossed for thursday and after, hopefully we can improve things with supplements initially to give us time to work out the best long term solution. Hasn't stopped him whacking me with his paw whilst I'm trying to type though, nor running off with the dustpan brush and systematically pulling every bristle out :rolleyes:

Hi,

The breed average in Goldies is 19.My bitch has a hipscore of 7:36 total 43.
However she has no problems in the injured side ,can get over a 5 bar gate and a 2hr walk across fields no problem.Her critiques  say moves with good drive and moves well.She puts a lot youngers to shame ,no sign of lameness or stfifness and does not mind you manipulating her hips so it does go to show.

Very often large breed dogs do go lame for a period of time and come back sound again and I have seen some most curious gaits in youngsters that then go on to have very good hip scores and with   maturity they have tightened up.
Obviously there are dogs that do go lame and stiff etc never improve and it is HD.

Briony

Chloe,

Just wanted to say I am sorry about Willis.  I had a GSD that the vet told me to have PTS when she was six months old, her hips were so bad.  She lived to be nearly 13 years old.  Although she could never be physically very active, she did live a comfortable and contented life.  I am sure you will get Willis the best medical support you can and he will be a happy boy.

Stacey

Hello Chloe
I have only just read this thread. I am so sorry to hear
about your poor dog.
I think the best thing you can do is educate others in
this case.
I too was ignorant years ago of the fact of hip scoring.
Until I met a breeder that hip scored. No one had even
told me such a thing was neccessary. How thick is that?
Anyway I have for the last 4 years hip scored my dogs
and the lines are low (thank goodness).  I now get others
in my breed to score their dogs. Not everyone will do. But
I have a dog at stud that when bitches come to him the
owners are very much encouraged to score their bitches
well before hand.
They too dont know anything about HD. So I help others understand
what its all about.
When I get people tell me they have a bitch and wont have
it hip scored because of the general A. I just say what happens then
when your bitch needs a ceasarean ? I say would you let her die ?
They have to think about that and agree that if you are going to
breed its worth having the hip scoring done and GA is given. So many
dogs are done now by sedation. I have not had this done on mine.
I have the GA.
Anyway keep up talking about it to people with Danes. You may get
some stick from some breeders but you know in your heart that you
are doing best for the breed.
Nutkin

At least you have spotted the early warning signs Chloe,  and there isn't anything more you can do. I too have a large breed that isn't commonly hipscored (which I didn't find out until ringing around possible breeders), and I guess there must be many others. For some reason the consequences seem worse in a Dane - I guess it's because there's much more dog to deal with. At least Willis has had the best possible start and the sort of diet and exercise regimen that will stand him in good stead in the future.

Good luck

Jo

have you got the results of the hip score back yet?

It will take aproximately between two and 10 weeks to get the results pack from the BVA.

Hello
Sorry to hear about Willis. I know how you feel, we have an 8 month old BC that has been diagnosed as having HD. They won't x-ray until she is a year but he is almost certain. It's so sad because he tries to keep up with her sister but just can't.

Are there any treatments?, my vet gave her nothing but I'm sure she is in pain sometimes.

Jo

Hello Chloe, I've just read this thread, so sorry to hear about Willis. I mentioned it to a friend of mine who owns Danes, she confirms, Danes are very rarely hip scored, or in fact health tested for anything??? No reason why was given???. She suggested  that Willis' problem may  be "wobblers", as apposed to the his hips, as apparantly this is quite common in certain lines??. I suppose only the tests you're about to have (hips) will reveal a cause, but she said you may want to bare the "wobblers" in mind.
Hope everything turns out okay!

Kay

Hi Kay

That was the first thing I said to Chloe as well - must be the way Dobe and Dane people think!  Hopefully his vet will check out his neck as well as his hips unless he is 100% certain that hips are the problem - I hope it is his hips rather than his neck as they are easier to fix I think.

Christine

I'm sorry, I don't understand something! If Willis is being x-rayed under sedation, then why do breeders claim they don't hip score because of risks associated with GA?? Surely they can do it under sedation as well?

I'm really sorry about poor Willis, at least if he does have a hip problem he's with an owner who spotted it sooner rather than later and will be able to have some treatment and pain relief.

Poor boy, give him a cuddle from me.

Hi,

I was reading through your comments and responses concerning HD.  Although I am not a Dane breeder, I have owned three.  I was saddened that you feel the onus falls upon the breeder where hip scoring is concerned. HD is not always genetic and is not a condition that is particularly associated with Great Danes.  HD is the movement of the head of the femur from within the hip joint.  This can be caused by dislocation, stairs, over exericise etc.

I can sympathise with you and Willis as it must be very distressing.  I am also going through the same problem with my Harlequin, in that she has been referred to an orthopaedic vet due to her possible hip/gait problems.

I am mortified at the diet your breeder recommended and Willis will not be receiving all the vitamins and minerals he needs.  They need to be fed a diet specifically for Giant Breeds and I can only say that the manufacturers of dog food have spent millions researching dietry requirements. Follow the advice of your vet and feed what they suggest - complete food.

Danes are a difficult breed to rear, in that one has to be careful in the growing period that they are not over exercised, not allowed to run up and down stairs, and that they are fed a correct and balanced diet.

Concerning the remarks about stud dogs which someone made to you; Just because a dog is advertised for stud it does not make it a suitable choice for breeding.  It depends on it's lines and the lines of the bitch it is to mate with.  It is the reponsibility of both owners to make sure that their planned mating will produce a healthy litter of puppies.

I'm sorry you feel it's the breeder's fault and I can only advice that you request that your vet refer you to a good orthopaedic vet.  My Harlequin has limited, but brisk lead walking and a good diet.  She is on pain killers and I await the outcome of my forthcoming visit with one of the top UK vets.

When we take on a Dane, we take whatever comes with it.  There are good breeders and bad breeders, but sometimes health problems occur, with no reflection on the breeder. 

I lost my first Dane at 11 months to a rare disease and would never hold the breeder responsible.  When you buy a Dane puppy it is in the lap of the gods how it will turn out.  Nothing in life in guaranteed and I'm sure you will find the future with Willis will be a bright one.  I wish you both the best of luck.

Hi :)

I have replied to your post privately as you sent me a PM with the exact same details.

However, I will answer the following:

1. I do not agree with complete food. My decision. My breeders recommended diet was followed. I know of several danes raised on complete food that have had far far worse problems than Willis.
2. All exercise advice, including no stairs etc etc etc was followed to the letter.
3. All dane breeders should hipscore. There is a hip problem in the breed. I wouldn't buy a GSD or a Lab that wasn't from scored parents, and now I wouldn't buy a dane either.

My breeder and I have had discussions regarding this, open and frank and honest discussions, and we are awaiting the official score from the BVA. My breeder has been nothing but helpful, and might I also add at this point I wouldn't hesitate to buy another pup from her, because Willis is brilliant - and she is now committed to scoring too.

Welcome to the forum.