Chris83 you seem like a responsible person and are prepared to deal with the consequences, so good luck to you i imagine this is a very difficult situation to be in and hope it gets resolved as soon as possible.

Hi Chris

Sorry to hear of your problem - it must be a very worrying time for all concerned. The Dangerous Dog Act is rather complicated in terms of private land although if you have invited someone in or someone has a right to be there eg Postman, then the onus is on the owner to ensure safety.

What bothered me more was the fact that in all of this the very nature of the border collie has been overlooked. These dogs are bred to work sheep and as such have an inbred ability to move sheep on by snapping and nipping at them. It is a trait we (humans) have bred into this breed of dog. It is not an organ that can, when unwanted, be cut out like a faulty part. In a lot of cases these dogs can be and are raised in a domestic situations, with or without children, and no safety issues arise. If the child was in your dogs face, and it was eating, it's only intention may well have been to 'move the child on' as it would with an errant sheep.

I am not minimising the gravity of what happened or might again but please see this incident for what it is - a piece of normal (natural/in-bred) behaviour that humans are ultimately responsible for creating in the first place!

Edited: If you think the parents of the bitten child will take the matter further and make a formal complaint against your dog or for your own peace of mind, it might be as well to get in a good behaviourist. Any behaviourist worth their salt will know about border collies and will be able to make a reliable assessment of your dog in particular. Their assessment could prove vital if it is suggested by any official body that your dog should be put to sleep.

I'm going to ask an unpopular question here - how old is the little girl? She goes into a fenced off area where a dog is eating? Presumably she is therefore old enough to be able to reach a latch on a gate or climb a fence? Are we saying children have no responsibility for their actions??

When I was about 5 as an avid dog lover I went up to our neighbour's gate to see their Boxer. I had been told she didn't like children and to leave her alone but I was determined I would win her over. I put my hand through the gate to stroke her and was bitten. I was terrified - not of the dog but that I might have got her into trouble - so much so that it was hours before I told my mother. My mother - being of the persuasion that if you do something you know you shouldn't you are responsible for the consequences - patched me up and apologised to the neighbour that I had bothered their dog!

Before everyone jumps on me I am not saying this child was at fault - maybe she didn't know that the fenced area was out of bounds - but I do question the assumption that children can't be held responsible for the consequences of their actions. And the assumption that a dog that nips a child under a specific (and quite stressed for the dog) circumstance is forever after a menace to all children in all situations.

Chris is really the only one in a position to make an informed judgement about whether his dog is dangerous or whether he can safely manage situations where there may be a risk. If it is simply in close interaction that the risk is apparent (ie the dog is not going to rush off and attack a child in the park) then there are many homes where this could be eliminated - a childless couple with their own land for exercise and a kennel if any children visited for example. There are indeed "worlds" out there that are pretty much child free believe it or not! This would not be passing on the problem but finding a responsible solution for all concerned (assuming full disclosure of all the facts).

I can only say that I am very glad that my old neighbour did not have the "if my dog ever bit a child I would put it down" response - if they had I would have lived with the guilt of that responsibility for the rest of my life!

Good luck whatever you decide.
Janet

Hi

Haven't you just answered your own question? At 5, you believed you could win the dog round - so shouldn't the dog owner have been responsible enough to realise that children are inquisitive (despite parents instructions) and ensured that you couldn't put your hand through to the dog? Are you not asking a bit much of children? How can a 5 year old see the consequences of their actions? You didn't...so why should others?

Chloe :)

No Chloe

At 5 I was blase enough to believe that I could make friends with any dog - but I was also well aware that I was doing something I shouldn't have done - that I had been told not to! As soon as it happened I knew it was my fault - not the dog's, not the neighbour's, not my parents. I remember even now that feeling. I could see very well in an instant the immediate possible consequences of my actions (and was horrified that what I had done might lead to a dog being put to sleep). So no - I don't think I was unaware of consequences even at that age! I made a bad choice but never at any point was unaware that there had been a choice.

Of course I am not suggesting that measures shouldn't be taken to protect children - but in this case they were - the dog was in a separate fenced off area. In my case the dog was behind a fence which was wired over - I had to bend the wire to squeeze my hand through. I can't blame the owner - they had taken reasonable responsible precautions. I am aware of one case where the dog was tied up within in a padlocked run with an 8 foot fence, which was inside a fenced garden with a locked gate. A child climbed over both fences and went up to the dog on its line and was bitten! Was the owner at fault there? I am sorry but I think responsibility is a two way street.

Janet

This is an impossible discussion because every time something is posted and I respond, the original post is embelished. Of course responsibility is a two way street, I have never denied that. If a child scales a large wall to get to a well protected and fenced off dog, then of course its not the dogs fault - but neither is it entirely the childs fault either....where are the parents in all this? If you bent wire back to get to the dog at 5, then again its a joint responsibility thing....if I had a dog that I thought might bite children, then the wire would be strong enough that a child couldn't bend it back! You should ALWAYS assume worst case scenario.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I think that children are all too often being denied a childhood as it is....and too many children are being tarnished with the reputation of being terrors...mine aren't, and none of the children I know are either.

Hi Chloe

Sorry not to put full details in the original post - trying to be as succinct as possible so what may not seem salient points at the time get missed out! I am certainly not trying to suggest that children are terrors - far from it - rather that they are people who like anyone else learn from their experiences and can understand responsibilities. I agree that children today are denied a childhood in many ways that we were not - but I also feel that we can take away important things by trying to protect them too much. I learned a lot that day - lessons I have never forgotten. One - that much as I loved all dogs - I had to respect their space and some may not love me. Two that my actions could have an impact on other creatures in a bad way - even if my intentions were good. And three that sometimes my parents were right! :) I feel there needs to be a balance between responsible protection of children and allowing them to make their mistakes and learn from them.

I don't *blame* the child for opening the gate - but nor do I blame the dog for being a dog and responding to a perceived threat. Responsibility is shared between all parties (dog owners, parents, child if she had been told) but really noone is to blame. It was an unfortunate accident but one for which sadly the dog could pay with its life (though hopefully not).

Just as children are children and inquisitive, etc. dogs are dogs. Biting is part of a dog's repertoire of behaviour - whether we like it or not. A bite in one situation does NOT mean a dog is dangerous to all. I spent my entire childhood from being a toddler to my teens with a dog who early on bit a postman in our garden. Thankfully his trousers took the brunt and he was happy with a settlement of a new pair and an assurance that she would not be loose in the garden when he came. She was also a horror with cats and would have happily dispatched one if she had caught it. But a more reliable companion to us children would have been difficult to find. She died of old age having never ever threatened anyone in the family. One bite - especially when there is reason (if never justification) - does not make a dog a danger.

You're right we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Janet

Hiya all
Have to say I can TOTALLY see what you were trying to say at the beginning of the posting Chloe, and how it was getting pulled about..quote, misquote, quote, arguement. BLIMEY !!! What on earth was THAT all about.
My lovely Tess (bless her passed away, little cotton socks)was amzing with kids, mine and all in the neighbourhood. When my 2 boys were babies, toddlers, growing up, if ever they bugged her too much, she would go and lie under the dining table. That was her letting me know she'd had enough of the kids and so I would respect her peace, and keep them away from her. Never in her life did she so much as grumble at them...she knew her place in the pack, and so knew to go to her "safe" place, and that I'd keep them away from her. She truly was one in a million.
2 years ago, I had to PTS my 3 year old gorgeous fluffy, beautiful, excellent natured GSD. Suddenly he decided he wanted to fight with my youngest son for his place in the pack. Dylon the dog, would obey every command from everyone, except my son. I worked with my son, and Dylan loads trying to overcome this agression, as I didn't want the dog to harm my son (obviously) and therefore the possibility of having to have him PTS. One day, my son walked past Dylan and stroked him as he passed by. The dog just leapt at my son, and bit his hand. It was only a warning bite, and just slightly broke the skin, but nevertheless IMO the dog was taking the challenge 1step too far.
I broke my heart over loosing him.
I understand the anguish the original poster will be going through, but I did what I had to do.....I wasn't prepared to take the chance on the dog biting again...And in case you are wondering, no, my son hadn't been teasing/tormenting the dog on the sly.
On the subject of BC's.....whilst on holiday, caravanning on a farmer's land, mine and my friends' kids were playing with the BC, and he played ball with them wonderfully....suddenly, without any warning, the dog bit my friends son. I was there playing ball with them too. It was totally unprovoked, and out of the blue. Was furious later when after speaking to the farmers wife, she told me that 'he can be a bit temperamental with kids' !! Why hadn't she warned us sooner??!!!

With respect this wasn't a family dog biting a child in its own family (when pack position could well be an issue) but a dog biting (or nipping as the original poster described it) a child from outside the family trespassing on his territory (his fenced area). Completely different situations IMO.

I still don't believe that this incident (as it has been described and assuming it was an isolated one and there are no other factors) indicates that this dog is at all a danger to his own family children - or other children for that matter in different circumstances.

You are right of course that someone who has a "temperamental" collie should not have allowed it to play with children - especially strangers - completely irresponsible - but it is hardly comparable to this situation - unless you are suggesting that Chris believed his dog to be temperamental or that all BCs are?

Janet

Becketts
Are you deliberately provoking an argument.
Quote.."unless you are suggesting that Chris believed his dog to be temperamental or that all BCs are?"
If you read this board often enough, you will see that people not only offer advise, but share experience's. DO you recall me actually saying Chris believed his dog to be temperamental?? NO ?? I didn't think so !
I am totally ignornat as to the nature's of BC, so I can't comment of that type of dog at all....but I merely pointed out that my only ever meeting with a BC and he turned out to be temperamental. I was certainly not condemning BC's.
As for mentioning about my lovely Dylan.....I was trying in my own way to say I can understand the anguish Chris will be going through. A dog that bite's for whatever reason, cause's the owner untold grief/problems/heartbreak/anguish.
Good luck to ya in whatever you decide Chris. Horrendous position to be in.

Steph - best to just let it go...like I said, people say things to provoke a reaction, then change the posts/arguments/experiences and recommendations to suit themselves (aimed at no-one in particular - just talking generally on THIS thread).

your right Chloe :) don't make a habit of it tho' ;) :D

No Steph (and Chloe) I am not trying to provoke anything. I was just pointing out the differences between Chris's situations and the ones you mentioned. I am also very aware of the grief of having to put down a genuinely aggressive dog, having had a much loved dog put down for rage attacks last year, so I feel for anyone facing that decision and wouldn't judge them at all. Everyone has to decide for themselves and it is the most difficult decision imaginable. The pain of that (and the lack of understanding we got from most people in our breed) is still very raw. But it also makes me fear that people might feel that this is the only option in all cases where a dog bites. It is in some - but not all. Surely noone should have to go through that unless it is absolutely the only safe course of action? Chris is of course the only one who can decide in his case.

Clearly I am failing dismally to express myself on this thread so I'll stop trying. Good luck Chris. Let us know how you get on.

Janet

Hi Beckets

If you think you might be unpopular with your views - you are not alone. I have just added to the board but had not read your response at that point. I also did what you did when I was a child - I have been drawn to dogs as long ago as I can remember and have never stopped being invovled with them since.

Like you I also got bitten (it was a Jack Russell with me) I hadn't been warned he was nasty but he was in his front garden and I hung over the gate to touch him. The dog was unlucky because he responded to my tresspassing in his territory with a bite and he was under death sentence from that day on.

BUT it was my own fault. I had been told not to touch dogs without permission but they attracted me like a magnet so I carried on and did what I did because I thought I knew better. That dog taught me a few things about respect and more children should learn just that but hopefully without the bite. Dogs are dogs - they come with teeth - their only weapons. They come with tools to communicate with us and other animals - growls, snarls, barks, body language etc but we often chose to ignore them and think the dog has no right to try to tell us when it feels uncomfortable about our presence. And then we offer the biggest injustice of all - we fail to listen and then kill them for our own failure and mistakes. It makes my blood run cold but I'm with you on this Becketts (I think you've been with me on other issues if I remember rightly - the dog who growled when stroked by its owners when it was eating its dinner!)

Hi Chris

I have already replied to this post but having read other replies will add more.

I gather from what you said your dog was in a fenced off area and this child went in that area. Did this child go in on its own accord? If so, who has not taught this child to respect other people's property and ask permission before wandering off willy nilly where not invited? Also, if too young to understand that there are social rules to be obeyed, aren't the parents/guardians supposed to supervise their childs movements/safety?

Once in with the dog did the child observe any warning that the dog gave off that it was uncomfortable with the child being there? Very few dogs attack without warning but many people fail to listen to the dog and then wonder why they get bitten. Has this child been educated as to how to behave around dogs? Has it been taught to have respect for a dog when it has a bone? If not, don't the adults in charge have some responsibility here?

I get so tired of people who fail to teach their children how to respect dogs and as soon as the child gets in trouble say KILL THE DOG.

If your dog had shown no signs of aggressive behaviour prior to this, and I gather you had no doubt about your own children being with your dog, why should you think you have an aggressive dog now?

A collie reflex snap usually meets air but when you have 2 living, breathing, moving beings in close proximity you can get a near miss or a direct hit. The difference between your dog making contact with the child or not is as little as 0.25cms. So, who moved at the crucial second of impact - the child, the dog or did both move 0.125cms simultaneously. For goodness sake can't this be put into persepective. It may be a one off situation that may never happen again and yet a perfectly well balanced dog could be destroyed because a series of humans made wrong choices or failed to educate the child.

We humans bring dogs into our world and make them live by our standards, we breed them to nip and snap, fail to learn how to communicate with them, fail to educate our children and then destroy them for being dogs - it is so tragic it makes me want to weep with despair.

Please don't just blame the dog - look at the whole picture.

Chris

Your original post was regarding the legalities of what happened and where do you stand.

Have you tried ringing a solicitors practise, I believe some offer a half hour consultation at a reasonable fee. This would not only answer your current situation, but also what reasonable steps you could take to cover yourself in future.

Another approach would be Roger Mugfords behavioural practice which specialises with legal issues and dogs. Have a look on their website www.companyofanimals.co.uk you will see a legal section which gives a special e.mail address and telephone number,

Good Luck

Sandra

BLIMEY GUYS!!

I THINK EVERY DOG SHOULD HAVE A SIGN AROUND ITS NECK ...... HAVE TEETH....... CAN BITE!!!!!!!!

Infact while we are there , i suppose all animals should have a warning on them.

Kids can be silly, Dogs can be instinctive...... FACT.

The horrible truth is that lots of kids get bitten by dogs.

Lots of dogs that have bitten, dont do it again, lots probably do.

This seems a sad incident, but the dogs owner seems to have done everything he can to rectify this.
GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR BC
Sam

I must agree with 'dog behaviour's' post. I think in this case it is 6 and two 3's. It is partly your fault as you say for not ensuring that your dog was ok with this child and that the gate was not secure enough to keep children out. However i think, (and don't all shout at me), that some of the blame lies with the child and her parents. I may have missed how old the child is and i don't know exactly how the area is but surely if the child is old enogh to wonder around unsupervised then she should know better. Seriously how many people expect children just to wander into your property without permission, whether she knows you or not. What happens if you own a guarding breed, many dogs would expect their dog to guard their property - how can they distinguish who to keep out and who to allow in? If anything this dog was very good to allow the child through the gate. My own BC like to bark ferociously at anyone who comes through the gate - she doesn't ever get close enough to nip - she actually runs away as she is scared but that is not the case with all dogs is it?
Did anyone see what happened? Or did the child simply say what had happened? As people have shown when a child has done something that they know is naughty they are not likely to tell the truth. BC in particular are sensitive breeds and can be upset by a simple stare - something children tend to do a lot.
Legally i can not see how you can be held entirely responsible, the dog was on your property that you believed to be resonable secure. In today's world parents rarely let a child out of their sight - infact for many a dog bite is the least of your worries, abductions and paedophiles are more worrying for many. Not to say that a dog bite is not serious - although in this instance it was only a warning nip - as you have pointed out it is natural for a collie who is uncomfortable in that situation to do this. No matter how well trained dogs are they are living creatures and can be unpredictable. I don't believe any dog is 100% safe.
I think you are doing everything you should do in this case, seeking help from a behaviourist, securing the area and supervising your own children. I dont believe one incident justifies destroying the dog. It may never happen again.Certainly most BC's regard the children in their own family as their pack and are unlikely to attack them, but that said still be careful just in case. Good luck with everything.
Lucy

Sam i like your post.

Chris good luck to you and you little problem, i for one would not have the dog pts, and would not rehome him, i would keep an eye on him. This could have been a one off. If somone put there face next to mine whilst i was eating id tell them to get lost, a dog can not do this.

Fingers crossed for you.

Having methodically read through this post once again, I cannot see ONE INSTANCE that the poster has been advised to put the dog to sleep. Yes, there are a lot of posts saying what the responders would do, if it was their dog...but NOT ONCE has this poster been advised/told to have the dog destroyed.

Frankly, I think this particular discussion has run its course (IMO), but I felt this should be pointed out before people make assumptions and make everyone who responded in a certain way look intolerant to this particular dog.

Jane - this was not aimed at you in particular.

Hi Chris,
If you need any advice on your legal position should the childs parents take any action against you or if you need to know of your position for peace of mind. Then I suggest you contact Justice for Dogs on 01554 370213 this organisation is now a charity and can offer advise on your legal position. They have legal representation and an animal behaviourist to access the situation too.
Without advise you can run around in circles with 'what if and maybe' it would be better to have a clear picture in your own mind now, the situation can change very quickly, people change their mind.
I hope this is of some help.

'I get so tired of people who fail to teach their children how to respect dogs and as soon as the child gets into trouble say KILL THE DOG'
You may get tired of hearing people say that, I do too but there are circumstances where a child/adult is bitten and the child/adult is not at fault and the owner is given no choice but to accept euthanasia as the only option. I have been in that position myself and it was one that haunts me still today 10 years later. Neither child/adult or dog were at fault the dog was suffering from rage syndrome and the child/adult was the target. As an animal behaviourist you must have experienced these very unfortunate circumstances. Although I honestly believe that unless you have owned or lived in a household with a dog with this condition it is impossible to understand what it is like to live between one attack to the next. The immediate reaction is not that this dog is suffering from rage syndrome because we did not know initially. Just like the experience Chris is going through you try to think of ways to live with the situation and what is best for dog and family. Initially, we did not think it was goiung to happen again but it did. I also think that not no one is in a position to judge the situation as to whether to euthanase or not, in my situation it was the only option on Vets advise and I have to believe it was the right one.
I still believe 99% of the time that the dog is right in situations now and owner is wrong but I do know from personal experience as sad as it was that sometimes there are occassions when there really is no choice. It is bad enough having to have an animal PTS to save it suffering but to have one PTS when physically healthy but mentally ill is so very, very hard.

Hi Pat

Totally agree with you -it is always distressing when you have to lose a dog to whatever reason. It's just that, like we both seem to agree, in so many cases it is the humans who make the mistakes and the dogs who pay the price. Many respondants to the original post took the immediate reaction that if a child got even so much as a slight graze then it proved the dog was untrustworthy and putting to sleep would be their first course of action. That is what is so distressing - each case should be judged on its merits and like I also said , if Chris's dog had any real intent to cause harm to this child it would have taken off half a face in one bite - any fair sized dog could.

Given the breed of this dog and the fact that it is 2.5 years old and not shown aggression before, I think it is reasonably safe to assume it is not rage syndrome. Rage, of course, usually effects Cockers more than any other breed but can be found in other single colour breed of dog aswell. Rage Syndrome usually, but not always, makes the dog turn on its own owners and not others as was the case here.

However, we now seem to be digressing from the original post which is not the point.

Regards

PS Are you one too - a behaviourist that is

No I am not a behaviourist just have an interest in dog issues