Takes me about 4 hours to get to Stafford showground - such a lovely journey!

> Err where to start, you came on this forum saying you were a commercial breeder, you've gradually changed your story over time to try and merge with us...

I joined the Forum when I became Licenced not before and as advised by local council who granted such my label was 'commercial breeder'.
and as for merging with you - not in a million years!

you don't rehome dogs when they're finished breeding, except you have,

Yes 2 of my dogs (males) went with their handler at the kennels here to their new home. 1st was finished breeding but the 2nd wasn't and they live 3 miles from here and I see them regularly as highlighted in a previos post.

you health test everything, except you haven't,

Not every Dog on my website is a breeding dog. I think you should return for an update as the ones who are for breeding are Health Tested and my page is updated frequently.

you mocked showing, now you say you show at local level, you breed from everything you have, now you claim to have some sort of assessment in place.

I mocked the hypocricy of it all and the feeling of superiority. Saying I breed from everything I have is a downright LIE! Assessment in place is when you see great examples of the Puppies/Adult dogs I have bred myself working to their full potential and successful in their job as working Gundogs. Experienced Handlers, Gamekeepers and Shooting Parties are
the real people you want positive comments from.

I said I don't show and  now claim I do...if you count village flower shows & fetes as showing - yes with a top prize of £3.  Hardly Showring Competition.

I have it all on my doorstep so no need to be travelling hundreds of miles for a 'pat on the back.

I'll give you points for tenacity, but to my mind you are a puppy farmer, and yes in my mind a commercial breeder is a puppy farmer, a commercial breeder is farming pups.

I do not need any tenacity points from you thank you.  You seem to feel you should judge people as well as dogs. dear oh dear....suppose your having your voice heard.

I'm not saying you're bad to your dogs or don't look after them, but your primary reason for having them is to breed from them and I don't think that's right or appropriate for dogs and is definitely not what a good breeder does

My primary reason for having them is to flush game. pick up and be well trained, well socialised and mentally stimulated.   If I want one of my girls to produce a litter then yes, I will breed.

I think we need to be realistic and accept that those of us deeply involved with preservation breeding and exhibition of dogs to a breed standard are insufficient to provide for the needs of those wishing, and in a position to responsibly own dogs.

The niche needs of true working dogs are also not going to be produced by us.

Those of us in dogs for some decades must be aware that there are fewer and fewer people joining our ranks, able and willing to become 'breeders', due to the long term commitment in time, accomodation and resources, not to mention red tape.

Some level of semi commercial breeding has always taken place within dog activities, in order for them to continue, as maintaining and improving takes time and money. For many the costs are offset by Dog related businesses, a partner with well paid job etc.

Those who rely on their job of work to keep their dogs often have to keep very small indeed, in order to do so, and can spend less time with their dogs, having to arrange expensive additional care, and can't take the time out for a litter.

An occasional litter may reduce costs all going well.

I personally have no issues with low level commercial breeding as an offshoot of legitimate dog activities.

As long as the breeding dogs spend most of their lives as companions be that as working dogs, show or sport dogs, enjoying companionship and activities with their owners.

I strongly disagree with large scale commercial breeding,

There are rules with staffing ratios for Boarding kennels, where dogs spend only short periods, so no way should breeding licences be given for numbers where the number of carers cannot provide the time and care for dogs full time, let alone litters.

So small scale commercial breeding that supplements other income, where dogs are fully health tested, if purebred meet the typical traits of the breed, and are well reared socialised and cared for, and importantly required to take long term responsibility for puppies bred.

As microchipping has been compulsory for 5 years, it should be possible for licences to be restricted for breeders that have a large number turning up in rescue, as their vetting procedures and follow up are not up to scratch.

Huga > Coming to this a bit late but to my mind a good breeder

EXACTLY!

You have just highlighted every protocol I follow!
(not as previously commented on by some and repeated with outdated information and a lot of assumption)

Brainless:  > As microchipping has been compulsory for 5 years, it should be possible for licences to be restricted for breeders that have a large number turning up in rescue, as their vetting procedures and follow up are not up to scratch.

This is something I totally agree with and perhaps data will be produced at some point.

> I think you should return for an update as the ones who are for breeding are Health Tested and my page is updated frequently.

Trelystan Grace - you had a litter from her last year. She has only had one DNA test of the five that it is recommended for labradors to have.

The same goes for Trelystan Eve (litters in 2018 and 2019) and Trelystan Lois (litters in 2018/2019/2020).

Now if this information is incorrect then I am happy to accept that however if it is wrong, I suggest you update your CD page a bit more frequently and also have a word with the KC as they have incomplete details for these dogs.

If the information is correct then I think you need to take back your claim to health test your dogs as recommended by the KC.

ETA the KC shows the other tests that are available so there is no reason why a responsible breeder won’t do them when they are known to be issues in the breed

masajackrussell:  Trelystan Grace has hip & elbow scores and is retired.  Trelystan Lois has been hip & elbow scored but will have no more litters nor will Trelystan Eve who is also been hip & elbow scored.  You seem to have missed the point highlighted
that I don't breed from every dog on my page.  Perhaps concentrate on the Health Testing that is now (after waiting months for results) and not historical...I don't believe anyone can work backwards

> Trelystan Grace has hip & elbow scores and retired.  Trelystan Lois will have no more litters nor will Trelystan Eve.

But they were still bred recently without the tests. Fine if you are not breeding from them anymore then no point in testing. But really they should have been done before breeding as you know.

> You seem to have missed the point highlighted<br />that don't breed from every dog on my page.

I never said you did so didn’t feel the need to comment and not all of your litters are on there anyway so I wouldn’t actually know.

And historical is maybe ten years ago. Not six months ago.

Interesting that a retired stud dog was bred from despite having an ED score of 1, when the BVA state only 0 scored dogs/bitches should be bred from

Interpreting and using the results
Once your dog has been graded, a completed certificate detailing the elbow grades will be sent back to your vet and then passed on to yourself.

A grade is given for each elbow and the overall elbow grade is determined by the higher of the two individual grades. The grades are:

0 = Radiographically normal
1 = Mild osteoarthritis
2 = Moderate osteoarthritis or a primary lesion with no osteoarthritis
3 = Severe osteoarthritis or primary lesion with osteoarthritis
CHS recommends only breeding from dogs that have an elbow grade of 0.


Masajackrussell:> And historical is maybe ten years ago. Not six months ago.-  says who?  I wasn't aware you had to go backwards as previously highlighted.

maybe some people are born knowlegable - many of us aren't but willing to learn but constantly barraging someone does not encourage advice to be taken.

Should have, would have, could have?  I have learned a lot since joining the Forum - some of it portrayed to me in very rude terms - totally unnecessary - it is what it is!

> Interesting that a retired stud dog was bred from despite having an ED score of 1, when the BVA state only 0 scored dogs/bitches should be bred from<br />

You are going backwards again and as argued before KC has no recommendation  that a dog with an Elbow Score of 1 should not be bred from - keep up!

For those who do not know the CHS is the Canine Health Schemes, run by the KENNEL CLUB and the BVA

So if the CHS states only dogs with 0 ED score should be used in breeding, this means the KENNEL CLUB and the BVA are both making this statement, I know that I would guided by this statement on the BVA site & not the erroneous recommendation on the yet to be updated KC site

It's amazing how some people claim to go by KC recommendations, but chose which site to get the recommendation/guidance from to suit their need to appear to adhere to KC breeding protocols

Just wondering i know 0 is usually what u would  breed from there are exceptions  .if someone didn't know that u shouldn't breed if elbows are more than 0 at what number would they  considered unacceptable ? 2,3 ? Where would u stop or wouod just the fact they have been scored be considered OK
Same with hips u need to know what u are looking for to make any judgements

furriefriends:  No not 2 or 3.  only 0 or 1 for elbows is acceptable although 0 is recommended.
Hips should be a joint 9 or below. If each potential new owner is given copies of the results for both and an explanation provided and easily accessible on the new KC site
which we have agreed is more swayed toward the purchaser then what would be the point of anything other than transparency?

I personally would consider anyone breeding, who claims to be ignorant of the veterinary body's guidelines, to be a bad breeder pure & simple. As the saying going"ignorance is no excuse"

Breeding any animal needs to be totally responsible, doing all available research, knowing the ancestry in full, plus the desire to improve the health(mental & physical) whether it is a dog or a horse.

I am surprised that people still look to non veterinary guidance in stead of that from qualified experts who are specialists in the field

From the CHS ED it is 0, for HD it is under the breed MEDIAN

The median for hips  vary according to breed not all are 9 .it may be in labs although without checking i wouldn't know as its not a breed I have owned

No the KC are not dictating that a Dog with an elbow score of 1 is unfit for breeding.  There is no comment at all in relation to a Dog with this score.
Perhaps KC need to have a conversation with BVA.  For Information:  the dog in question has not been used at stud since in March 2020.

furriefriends:  It seems my dogs being questioned yet again (Labs) is what my response is related to.

Nope not questioning your dogs or your breed  just making sure anyone reading is aware it varies from breed to breed .

There are differing options on what a good breed is verses a bad breeder as you can see. 

For me a good breeder is someone breeding for a reason other than to produce puppies to sell to make money, weather they make a profit or lose money if irrelevant to them as it's not the reason they bred the litter. The breeder should be able to say why they bred the litter and why they picked the pairing they have. I would avoid breeder who breed funny new/rare colours often these are people breeding for money and the new colour has been introduced into the breed with a screat cross and lied about at some point.

Which leads on to my next bit that is a good breeder will travel for the right stud. People breeding for money will often either but a male and use him on all their bitches all the time to save a stud fee or use a male because he is local and cheap. Where as a good breeder will search for a male that complements their female, he may be strong in areas she is lacking or he may be from specific lines to increase the diversity in that breeders line ect.

Health testing, some had breeders will try to com buyers by saying the dogs are health tested when really they mean the dog has had a general check with their vet and nothing else, this is not health testing. Each breed will have different tests recommended and can include hip scoring, elbow scoring, eye testing and DNA testing.
In your case as your looking to get a lab a good breeder must Hip Score, Elbow Score, Eye testing as a must but I personally wouldn't touch a breeder who doesn't also do the other recommended testing which is DNA testing for CNM, EIC, HNPK, prcd-PRA, SD2.

A for how they keep their dogs I would want a breeder who's dogs are kept as their pets first breeding dogs second, I personally would not want to go to a breeder who's dogs live out in kennels, I know plenty of people who have 5-10 dogs and they all live in the house so having a few dogs doesn't mean they must have kennels. I certainly wouldn't want the litter raised out in kennels. For me a litter needs to be raised in the home with all the normal home noises if your looking for a pet.

A good breeder will be happy for you to come visit (when were not in covid times of course) and will be happy for you to meet all their dogs not just the puppies and mum. They will be happy to answer any questions you ask and will also have plenty of questions for you as a good breeder cards where they pups go. They will also want to take back the pup/dog at any point if you can't keep it any more and ideally should have this in a contract. Some breeders do deposits if they do it will never be before the litter is born but many don't do deposits and they I'll be happy For you to see the litter and mum and will likely require it.

For me I don't agree with breeders who rehome their dogs when they finish breeding them to make room for an New breeding dog.

They microchip and the chip will be registered to them first as per the law, personally I'd prefer not to have the first vaccination done before I get the puppy as I will never vaccinate at 8 and 10 weeks again after my first dogs was done at theses times and it was blocked by maternal derived antibodies and she caught parvo at 7 months old. I now do either 9-12 or 10-12 weeks. Flea treating unless they have a flea problem I wouldn't treat them. The breeder should provide You with information about the worming, chip papers, registration in purebreds, info about feeding and some of the food their on, preferably a puppy contract and other information, my puppy info includes everything I could think of for a novice owner.

You can check out a breeders dogs on the kennel club website using the health test finder you can see what health testing has been done on individual dogs as well as how many litters the dog has whelped or sired, you can also just put in the breeders affix if they have one and see how many dogs come up this can let you know if they have only a few litter or if they are churning them out.

To be honest I think it's much easier to find a good breeder when your not looking to get a puppy, finding a breeder first then waiting for their next litter gives you plenty of time to get to know them. When I was looking for breeders I met up with my girls breeder many times long before the bitch was due to be maited.

Ann R Smith:  > I personally would consider anyone breeding, who claims to be ignorant of the veterinary body's guidelines

No one claims to be ignorant of BVA recommendations.  Following KC's recommendations with no comment from them regarding ES of 1 is a choice I made in 2019
Nothing to do with my own ends but I'll ask you the same question?  Who's being swayed by their choice to follow BVA guidelines as only acceptable?

> knowing the ancestry in full

I have witnessed many posts on here suggesting previous generations/parentage could be viewed as a guide to the outcome of a dogs scoring. Contacting sibling owners etc was also mentioned.

Yes again 'pick & choose' what you want to follow

JoStockbridge: > People breeding for money will often either but a male and use him on all their bitches all the time to save a stud fee or use a male because he is local and cheap

Hear! Hear! to all except the above.

My current Stud was bought in and came from a long line of successful working Gundogs.  His pedigree is excellent and yes I want to continue his line ongoing. I travelled 3 times on a 320 mile round trip each time.

I would choose to follow the advice of a veterinary body who specialise in these things over a registration body. To choose the less strict guidelines in this situation is poor practice in my opinion.

> I have witnessed many posts on here suggesting previous generations/parentage could be viewed as a guide to the outcome of a dogs scoring.

This is where EBVs come into play with hips and elbows.

Talking of knowing ancestry, for your information Hoggie, there is a dog in some of your pedigrees who has produced epileptic progeny.

Good breeder:-

1.0 Ensures CoI (coefficient of inbreeding) of any coupling is below breed average

2.0 Ensure both Dam and Sire have had requisite DNA test (complete up to date list) for that breed as recommenced by KC

3.0 Can meet majority of standards set by KC for an Assured Breeder

4.0 Has no convictions related to animal welfafe

> And who might they be?  First I've ever heard!

I was chatting to someone about a Labrador pedigree and was told about it. I'm not willing to give details I'm afraid as it didn't go down very well with the breeder when they were told. They also repeated the mating. Not something I want to get involved in. If you research you will find it I'm sure.

No No.  If you put it out there then you need to back it up with proof otherwise it could be slanderous

> If you put it out there then you need to back it up with proof otherwise it could be slanderous

Ummm no I don't. Do your own research Hoggie. Other people do.

If you don't take it down,  without proof - I will report to admin to take it down

Go for it. It's not slanderous in any way as I haven't named any names, either dog or human. It is something that I have been told. I am passing the info on to you. If you want to research it, fine. If you don't, don't.

masjackrussell.

So it's only hearsay - that will do me . You have named me without any grounds and for the record, I have never knowingly sold to a Breeder.

Hoggie I didn't say it was one of your puppies it is further back in the lines of some your dogs. So an ancestor of some of your dogs has produced epileptic progeny.

Lol why cannot certain people understand this :

For those who do not know the CHS is the Canine Health Schemes, run by the KENNEL CLUB and the BVA


Ergo recommendations/advice from the CHS is from the KC. Jeez is it me or are some people just so stupid they do not understand this or chose to ignore it ?

If they also think all breeds have the same median for hip scoring they really are stupid

masajackrussell : > Hoggie I didn't say it was one of your puppies it is further back in the lines of some your dogs. So an ancestor of some of your dogs has produced epileptic progeny.

You made it very clear that you claimed you had spoken with someone (unamed) and that when the Breeder was informed, they weren't best pleased.....I would call this back tracking.
and highlights just how expectations can be historically impossible to follow yet are picked through to create further bad feeling at every opportunity

So with all your wisdom on everything, what is the likely hood, percentage wise of epilepsy being a concern this far from the ancestor?

Ann R Smith:> Jeez is it me or are some people just so stupid they do not understand this

Just you that likes to insult people.

> For those who do not know the CHS is the Canine Health Schemes, run by the KENNEL CLUB and the BV

Yes and if you look at the KC website, there is no recommendationfrom them on elbow scores of 1 so they are not stating the same as BVA.

> You made it very clear that you claimed you had spoken with someone (unamed) and that when the Breeder was informed, they weren't best pleased.....I would call this back tracking.

Yes I did. I never said you produced said dog and I have since clarified that it is an ancestor of some of your dogs.

> So with all your wisdom on everything, what is the likely hood, percentage wise of epilepsy being a concern this far from the ancestor?

I am far from knowledgeable on this one I'm afraid, never claimed to be either. There is no DNA test for epilepsy yet but it is seen to be hereditary I believe. This is why it is so important to research pedigrees thoroughly and not just rely on knowing the direct parents of a dog.

It is entirely up to you whether you research this any further. Personally I'd be grateful for someone giving me the heads up.

masajackrussell:  > I never said you produced said dog and I have since clarified that it is an ancestor of some of your dogs.

What a weird conversation that must have been with this unamed person re not discussing individual kennels, dogs or people.  Knowledge of a dog's KC name is required in order for you to research the claim. Hmm strange.

> There is no DNA test for epilepsy yet

So we would need to have a crystal ball to be seen as a reponsible Breeder in order we prevent genetic occurances for problems that have no testing available? 

> Personally I'd be grateful for someone giving me the heads up.

Maybe, but do you believe it was well intentioned and polite to announce it on an open forum?

Anyway over and out,

FFS the CHS is the joint scheme, ERGO advice/recommendations from the CHS are also from the KC. Just because the website page for the KC, which has not been updated since the CHS ED scheme was introduced, does say this doesn't override the CHS information.

Some people obviously use the internet information that shows it is OK for them to breed from their dogs in preference to the CHS information, which shows they are not following the advice/recommendation of the very scheme they have used to test their dogs. Somewhst hypocritical methinks.

There is also breeding from a known carrier of SD2 untested offspring, I wonder if new owners were advised of this? especially as another offspring of the carrier is a carrier itself that has been used on untested bitches

I'm sorry but re hips chucking out 50% of your ever shrinking gene pool on a hip score is foolishness when a dog is functionally normal up to about 18 based on all other grading schemes.

A dog is not clinically dysplastic until around 25!

The ED recomendations are to breed from 0 and not to breed from 2 or 3.

Breeding is a balancing act, and with ever more tests if looking to breed only from perfection then all breeding will eventually cease.

>I'm sorry but re hips chucking out 50% of your ever shrinking gene pool on a hip score is foolishness when a dog is functionally normal up to about 18 based on all other grading schemes.

One rainy afternoon when I had nothing better to do I worked out the mean hip score of 'the dog' using the scores of all breeds listed on the BVA chart. The result backs you up as the score - using a sample size of well over a million so as extensive as is reasonably possible - came to 19.4. So basically anything below that is below average dor the species.

You have to gauge where the dog hips are faulty, uneven scores or high scores on the same part of the hip can cause the dog severe pain & problems.

Certainly in some breeds like GSDs, Labs, BC etc there is no excuse to use a dog with a hip score over the median, the gene pool will not be reduced to any degree as there are plenty of good quality dogs from diverse bloodlines with hips better than the median.

Out of interest I had my two "foreign" mongrels Pennhipped as part of the training of new PennHip vets in UK & Scrutineers in the US. The results were good, although obviously they could not be compared with their"breed results", both had good hips & from the additional traditional UK hip x rays also submitted for scrutineer training they both scored under 4 & all in single points. Two dogs both randomly bred, from non health tested parents, one born on the streets the other in a rescue. Does this mean we shouldn't bother with health testing? of course not, as another street dog I owned had the worse hips I had even seen & was blind in one eye & deaf in one ear, but she was never lame!

enjoyyourshoes: > Good breeder:-<br /><br />1.0 Ensures CoI (coefficient of inbreeding) of any coupling is below breed average<br /><br />2.0 Ensure both Dam and Sire have had requisite DNA test (complete up to date list) for that breed as recommenced by KC<br /><br />3.0 Can meet majority of standards set by KC for an Assured Breeder<br /><br />4.0 Has no convictions related to animal welfafe

Great description!  Totally agree...

AnnRSmith:  Late in picking up this post.

> Interesting that a retired stud dog was bred from despite having an ED score of 1, when the BVA state only 0 scored dogs/bitches should be bred from

Retired Stud Dog? Said who? and for info the last litter he had was March 2020.  So not recently.

> Does this mean we shouldn't bother with health testing?

No it's where you draw the line, too severe selection will lead to disaster

Also mere numbers do not a large gene pool make.

I have been looking for a puppy for friends and the breed is arguably the most numerous yet has a much higher average COI than my own with very low numbers.

From breeders CD page re stud dog with ED score of 1

I HAVE NOW RETIRED FROM THE DATING SCENE


He has an offspring which is a cerrier for SD, something neither parent was tested for! The folly of not fully DNA testing breeding dogs, this carrier has been mated to non health tested parents

AnnRSmith:> <br />He has an offspring which is a cerrier for SD,

An offspring - meaning one, yes?  and why are you constantly going back in history searching for faults?  It's repeated old news Ann

AnnRSmith> I HAVE NOW RETIRED FROM THE DATING SCENE

When his handler wanted to take him on, I made that statement on CD site to ensure there was no future confusion as to whether I was responsible for decision making re breeding. It's called professional contract terms & conditions.

So the use high scoring dogs broadens the gene pool? Really?

Perusing the COI of some breeds, it is breeders that decide the COI as they chose the dogs/bitches they use, nothing to stop them using unrelated dogs of good type & health, certainly in GSDs, Labs, BCs etc there Is a large gene pool available, it is breeders using popular sires, again & again that narrow gene pools. Look at the Bearded Collies, so many line/inbred to Pepperlands Lyric John of Potterdale who sired over 70 litters & 4 generations on, there were dogs with him in their pedigrees over 20 times!!

There is a stud dog on this site with over 1,000 puppies & over 100 litters & he is still at stud, never been shown or worked, yet people breed from him, in a breed that has far healthier & better dogs available at stud.

For BCs there are all the ISDS dogs available to use, yet breeders continually use closely related dogs, narrowing the KC gene pool.

Many years ago the experienced breeders used to breed out every third generation to keep the diversity in their lines

AnnRSmith:>

There is a stud dog on this site with over 1,000 puppies & over 100 litters & he is still at stud, never been shown or worked, yet people breed from him, in a breed that has far healthier & better dogs available at stud.<br /><br />For BCs there are all the ISDS dogs available to use, yet breeders continually use closely related dogs, narrowing the KC gene pool. <br /><br />Many years ago the experienced breeders used to breed out every third generation to keep the diversity in their lines

Who are you replying to?
None if it applies to my most recent response to you ???

I am not saying high, I am saying deleting 50% of a breed based on selecting below median,/mean, as opposed to selecting within acceptable functional normal range.

There are so many selection criteria, and other health issues to balance.

What's the point of driving hip scores ever lower ( my own breed has improved since universal hip scoring in UK in 30 years, from around 13 to 10) without throwing the baby out with bathwater and end up with other issues.