The Korung:-

"A “Kkl” stands for KörKlasse – a breed survey awarded to a dog at a Körung, a specialized event where breed surveys are done. ​ A Körung, is a German Shepherd Dog Breed Survey, an evaluation of the breed value of a dog for the improvement, preservation, and advancement of the breed."

Control  & protection phase & for once not a GSD!

GSD control & protection

> If we ever exhausted all the 'extra' pups in a litter bred for show or performance AND we ran short of rescue puppies/dogs, then we could consider breeding for pet homes.

Absolutely!

Which begs the question why are waiting lists so long.  And rescue isn't for everyone.  Indeed it can be harder to rescue than simply buy from a breeder.

I suspect that Travel restrictions have reduced the thousands of puppies bred in Ireland for the UK pet market.

In 2016 it was estimated 30,000 pups were bred in Ireland forbthe UK pet market, I doubt it had changed much since.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/puppies-being-mass-produced-in-ireland-and-sold-in-uk-1.2745131?mode=amp - ditto Eastern European puppy farms

Lucy's Law has also now banned 3rd Party Sales.

The Demand (possibly transient) has increased.

Despite what the Rescue agencies tell us, we don't have an over production problem, supply isn't meeting demand, we have a COMMITMENT/RETENTION problem.

Yet large numbers of rescue dogs are being imported by UK rescues from Ireland, and now Eastern Europe.

> why are waiting lists so long

In normal times they're not, most good breeders will have a full list before they breed but circumstances change and they may end up with pups available, more dogs than bitches, different colour choices whatever, normally if you wanted a well bred pedigree dog from good quality (proven quality in some sphere) of most breeds you could get one within a year, maybe a lot faster. Covid lockdown has made the world mad and it will have huge repercussions in rescue circles in years to come.

> Indeed it can be harder to rescue than simply buy from a breeder.

Do you mean it's harder to actually get a rescue? Rescues are always overflowing, and desperate to rehome dogs, you can get one in just a few days usually. If someone is finding it too hard to rescue, maybe they're failing the homechecks maybe they just shouldn't have a dog. I do homechecks for two independent rescues who have no blanket bans, they will rehome the right dogs to homes with small children, owners who work, as long as good arrangements are in place, if someone can't get a rescue dog they're either looking at unsuitable breeds for them or there is something in their life that needs changing before reapplying.

Or did you mean it can be harder work owning a rescue? If the new owner does their research, and adopts through a rescue that uses foster homes so can give honest assessments of the dogs available then it shouldn't be. As with buying a puppy research needs to be done.

> Bassbarr O'Sullivan? I bet him in the group a couple of times, he was ahead of us way more often though, I feel sorry for anyone showing a male basset around 92/93 <img class="fsm fsm_grin" src="/images/epx.png" title="grin" alt="" /><br />

That would be the one    And yes, I did have a nice male out at the time although he was sired by a N.American (visiting) Champion out of my Canadian-bred UK Champ.   As he favoured his sire in looks, it was difficult for any judge to 'pair' him with that dog, so although he usually won his lower classes, he never even won a RDCC - his sister did but she really didn't like showing and actually she looked more like my Canadian-English line.

And yes, having a Champions Class made that sort of thing unlikely to happen in terms of picking up points.   Not so much if people were after BOBs to get into the Group.   The BHC did that, once at the Club Ch. show (and boy was the Club in trouble with the KC) and my boy won the Open class, but then the same old ..... O'S took the Champs. class, CC and BOB with a very similar son, who won one of the lower classes, RDCC.

Oh and btw, we only too a litter for our next generation so although I decided not to sell to fellow breeders after my bad experience, those who went to pet homes, our 'surplus' puppies, were not specifically bred for the pet market.

The well known rescues do seem to make it difficult to adopt.

Some have ludicrous rules like not allowing you you a rescue if you have entire dogs even though the rescue is neutered?

Some have rules on location (my breed is uncommon, so a breed enthusiast is unlikely to be local), and they won't co-operate with breed rescue to get dogs homed into experience d hands.

Others won't adopt to exhibitors/breeders, remember the adopted animal is neutered.

I just had a call from a breed enthusiast desperate for an adult, having just lost their elderly bitch.

Dogs Tryst have a male that has spent most of his 8 years with them, and has bounced time and time again, but they won't allow people in the breed to assess him or pass on potential owners!

>The well known rescues do seem to make it difficult to adopt.

Sadly you are not wrong. I have recently heard of two dogs in one of these Rescues. They won't allow breed rescue to take the dogs. They have turned away knowledgeable, breed enthusiasts on the grounds that they have other dogs in their homes (you find that with breed enthusiasts!). Other homes turned away because their fences are not high enough. In the mean time, these dogs (a sensitive/nervous breed) are sitting in kennels and will become gibbering wrecks in no time at all if they are not rehomed soon.

Ludicrous.

My friend bred a litter.

Pups sent off with Contract with return clause, DNA test reports for parents, Hip scored eye tested etc.

Owner only in her 40's dies leaving young adult and her other dog. Scottish SPCA step in.

Breeder alerted to situation.

No they would not let her have the dog, (remember breeders are bad and don't take responsibility).

Will they at least pass on her details, and health documentation. No!!!

Fortunately new owner joined our Facebook breed group, and details allowed breeder and owner to marry up.

One now supported novice owner, and relieved breeder.

I have heard this more and more to the point that it would make me think really hard before putting my self in that arena. Not being prepared to take a dog to breed rescues is so ridiculous but seems to be commonplace
Surely it makes sense for a breed rescue who know the traits of the breed so well to be caring for an placing a dog rather than a general rescue. Seems not.
yes ridiculous

The big all breed rescues know they can get more money for a pedigree dog than a mongrel.

When the RSPCA raided the kennels & home of the Herds Shetland Sheepdogs & CKCS, they took all the dogs & neutered them all & sold them at the top market value, they refused all offers of help from the breed rescues & even sold dogs they found that did not belong to the kennel owners & refused to allow the legal owners to get their dogs back. They made £1,000s out of the situation & still got back money through the courts for the dogs care, despite receiving more money from the sales that their costs.

> I suspect that Travel restrictions have reduced the thousands of puppies bred in Ireland for the UK pet market......Lucy's Law has also now banned 3rd Party Sales.

I heard of something new on Facebook the other week where someone had reported a licenced breeder to the council as they were only licenced for a tiny number of litters yet they had sold lots of litters during lockdown alone. Turned out the council said there was no problem as the breeder Also owns a kennel in Ireland that's licenced there for loads of litters (although the poster claimed the kennel there isn't licenced) so their facility in Ireland churns out litters and sends them over to this small licenced breeder here to sell and as their name is on the paperwork the council said it was fine.

I have an issue with all this not liasing with the various Breed Rescues with Rescue Centres.   I Home checked for WoodGreen at one point, and they refused to have anything to do with Breed Rescues.   Thankfully whilst I was working for them, a Basset never came in.  Similarly with the other Rescue in Wales I worked for, until recently.  And as for Dogs Tryst - I made an application for a little JR/Beagle mix in the local branch and heard absolutely nothing.   He's still on their online page.   And so it goes on.

I suppose, as it certainly was with Wood Green, Rescues/Charities make income from their rescues - I was asked to mention leaving money to that organisation in Wills, and various money making ventures they had.  I suppose they have to make income somehow, but that would mean they'd be less likely to be involved with the various Breed Rescues.

That surely must be against Lucy's law as pups are supposed to be sold where reared???

That's what you would think but apparently as far as the council were concerned the breeder is still the breeder of the puppies in their Irish kennels so it's fine.

Look up One Little Westie ~ Puppy farming exposed on Facebook that's where I was it. Basically if your name is on the breeding licence in Ireland and a pet shop licence in England the council said it's fine to sell the puppies in the shop.

But selling in a shop is illegal now surely?

https://www.basingstoke.gov.uk/lucys-law

"Lucy’s Law, prohibits the sale of kittens and puppies (under six months old) by third party sellers and pet shops from the 6 April 2020. As such, all puppies and kittens must be sold directly from the breeder and the mother must be seen with the offspring prior to sale.

Therefore it will become illegal to sell puppies and kittens from pet shops and other commercial third party dealers unless they have bred the animal themselves"

Sadly not it seems, but the mother must be present.

JoStockbridge:  > breeder is still the breeder of the puppies in their Irish kennels so it's fine.

Yet another loophole found by the rogues!  I have a litter at present. (2 more Puppies than anticipated) and advertised on CD. The response numbers came to over 400 with at least 30% from Ireland.  I have just had a telephone call to inform me that Kennels from Ireland have been sending their email address asking them to respond to them on their site when they press the 'Contact Breeder' option.

All Puppies are sold but it makes me wonder about the unscrupulous ways of working and how secure things are in reality - please be aware.

Has been reported to CD Admin.

> I suspect that Travel restrictions have reduced the thousands of puppies bred in Ireland for the UK pet market......Lucy's Law has also now banned 3rd Party Sales.

I heard of something new on Facebook the other week where someone had reported a licenced breeder to the council as they were only licenced for a tiny number of litters yet they had sold lots of litters during lockdown alone. Turned out the council said there was no problem as the breeder Also owns a kennel in Ireland that's licenced there for loads of litters (although the poster claimed the kennel there isn't licenced) so their facility in Ireland churns out litters and sends them over to this small licenced breeder here to sell and as their name is on the paperwork the council said it was fine.

The thread has gone a little off topic but I think this conversation needs it's own thread, if someone would like to start one: Loop hole in Lucy's Law!

> But selling in a shop is illegal now surely?

You would think yes, and I read it as 3rd parties AND petshops as in a pet shop licence no longer allows puppies to be sold, but the council in question said as long as the breeder of the pups also owns the pet shop they can sell the puppies threw. Weather they are just misinterpreting it I don't know.

JoStockbridge:  > Weather they are just misinterpreting it I don't know.

I doubt it Jo.  I have a feeling they choose to misinterpret. I must admit I haven't seen a Puppy for sale in a Pet Shop for years and the thought of it fills me with dread. I was around in the 90's when the old brown envelope spoke volumes with commercial units having Councils in their pocket but I thought that was a thing of the past. We seem to be going backwards!

I said from day one that Lucy's Law wouldn't work as the pet shops would just breed their own pups. One not too far from us has a license for over 100 bitches and simply changed their advertising to say that all pups in their shop can be seen with their mother.

Goldmali:  > I said from day one that Lucy's Law wouldn't work as the pet shops would just breed their own pups.

And you have been proven right by the looks of things. I'm just of the feeling nowadays that the more areas that are legislated, the more loopholes will be found. So sad and although it's paramount to educate Breeders, there are so many other horrendous circumstances to deal with too and where a forum such as this could make their voices heard from guaging the depth of feeling for doing the right thing by 'top of the range' breeds, there are so many more who would benefit from that commitment.

As a trainer, I'm still getting enquiries from people with TWO PUPPIES. Which we mostly all know is a bad idea. But just imagine the cost of TWO PUPPIES now. Two were cockerpoos and two were cocker spaniels.

I mean, the cockerpoos must be £3K each - that's £6K!!!! 

onetwothreefour:  > I mean, the cockerpoos must be £3K each - that's £6K!!!

Sorry but why is there such a huge outcry relating to the cost of a puppy? Quite rightly so Show Breeders will only produce one or two litters per year or even less if it is only to continue their line but can't anyone see that if this were the only group to ever be allowed to produce a litter, the situation we have now re supply and demand (agreed very crude termanology) will result in this same situation? It's this exact belief of only 'the elite' have the authority to produce that adds to the problem.  I am all for education and learning so much as time goes on but surely this situation has to be addressesd.

Commercial breeders must be dancing with glee at the moment, no way does it cost £3,000 to produce a puppy, even allowing for health tests, employee wages etc. A litter of say 8 puppies, £24,000!! Definitely greeder prices, they are not even"rare"breeds nor fully health tested, there are a lot of partially tested dogs even listed on this site noted as health tested with no elbow scores or ones that should not be bredfrom

Totally Ann, and they often have more than one litter at a time.

I also blame the hugely inflated prices for the increase in dog theft. Lots of pups advertised and many for well over 3 k on the wellknown websites - no wonder opportunists get ideas. One of my latest puppy buyers is scared to walk her pup as somebody in the area was stabbed and had their dog stolen during a walk.

It’s possibly also why many litters are being sold via word of mouth between good breeders. Who wants to flag up that they have a litter if good homes can be found without advertising.

If you have been breeding for decades you get a lot of your former owners come back for another.

I have over the past year been unable to provide a pup for more than half a dozen former pup owners who have died.

Ann R Smith:

> Commercial breeders must be dancing with glee at the moment

I am sure commercial breeders are.  I was just wondering with your knowledge of everything doggie, if you have estimated number of commercial breeders UK wide and if so where the concentration parts of the country are?  Struck me that most of us posters have been slating those one off breeders who just breed with their pet without any health testing whatsoever.

Just trying to get a 'handle' on the percentage who are really making £££££££'s out of the current situation also would you be 'privvy' to whether these £3K Puppies are all sold or do you find they have to reduce their pricing as time goes on?

Apologies, lots of questions but thought you would be the best person to advise.

Unrelated on this thread, sorry, but for info: You were asking about Breeds other than retired grehounds being mutilated (ear removal or other).  There was a discussion about the other Breeds involved on the 'This Morning' Programme yesterday morning. Perhaps you could gain evidence of this practice from there.

Hope this helps.

My understanding of that slot on this morning was people were  ear docking for fashion not to remove tattoos.
Docking has been illegal since 2006 and the rspca have seen something like a 600 % increase recently 
I may have misunderstood but if anyone wants to download the this morning app the whole conversation  can be listened too

Admin might want to move some of this thread elsewhere as its rather gone off at another tangent

furriefriends:> My understanding of that slot on this morning was people were  ear docking for fashion not to remove tattoos.

Yes you are absolutely right. There was a comment that no one has concrete evidence as to why the ears have been docked and if you saw a dog in the street with that appearance, no one would asume it had been a deliberate act which then made me think of Ann's quest to find evidence of any 'ear tampering' outside of the greyhound racing world.  There's nothing to say docking wasn't done in order the dog coudn't be traced if a tattoo was present. Sometimes when we are on a one direction course. the other possibilities are dismissed.

That is true but I felt the main slant was the fashion element that some peopleseem to covert.

Ear cropping has been Illegal in UK since 1899

Well they got that wrong then . I am sure  they said 2006 .was that when the law changed on tail docking ?
Just checked yes the programme said 2006 .they need to check their facts better

Must admit I believe it's great that the public are being made aware of all cruelty placed on our animals in any form.  Long may access to information on this subject continue.

furriefriends:  They did say 2006.

Just to correct myself for some reason I wrote docking when I should have been writing cropping.  Sorry brain gone dead

Yes ear cropping has been illegal from the date Anne mentioned tail docking was much later as they said 2006

Sounds like their researchers didn't research very well then !

satincollie:  > tail docking

I see, apologies yes.  I now only tail dock for working homes and quite rightly, all admin, paperwork and written confirmation of intended placement must be provided to my Vet.

Ear Cropping has been ilegal in UK since 1899 but common in some countries, especially USA Russia, most often in certain guarding and fighting breeds as it is fashionable with certain buyers.

I know someone who imported a Caucasian Shepherd and his ears are cropped really small. I feel so bad for him, poor dog.

Brainless:  > common in some countries, especially USA Russia

So so sad .... I'd like to take a pair of scissors to the ears of the perpetrators! see how they feel!

Silverleaf:  > I know someone who imported a Caucasian Shepherd and his ears are cropped really small

Did this person give any reason(s) for their decision to uphold this practise by buying this poor soul?

> Did this person give any reason(s) for their decision to uphold this practise by buying this poor soul?

I don’t think he was expecting him to be cropped, to be honest. Probably didn’t even think about it.

It is common practice In countries where wolves, bears & other large predators live free, for stock farmers to employ flock guards & traditional these dogs have their ears removed within a day of birth, also when they are working they wear spiked collars, with the spikes on the OUTSIDE both to protect the dogs during an attack.
The flock guards from show kennels are not cropped as they are not bred to work.
This cropping is not for looks, but for protection of the dogs whilst working.
Way back in the 1970s I came across a Anatolian Karabash owned by a couple in the American Forces. The dog had no ears do obviously I asked them about it & learnt the history of the breed. Unlike the show type she was huge, bigger than a Newfie, with a very thick double coat, dark fawn with an intense black mask, yet extremely gentle with humans, especially children

People jump on the all cropping is bad, without any knowledge a out why some breeds are cropped & docked-not that I approve of either

So was there a working / protective reason in other breeds as well ?