> If every puppy ever bred was only to comply with breed standard or working ability, there would be no 'pet puppies' available....

All puppies bred should comply with the breed standard! Pet puppies should not mean poor quality.

Why shouldn't a puppy kept as a pet conform to the breed standard or have working ability. All my dogs have been bought as pets first but I wanted them to look like the breed they were and I also got into various aspects of training. Most of mine not competed in breed, obedience,agility and HTM but gained awards in all of them.

Cava14Una:  I'm not saying they shouldn't be breed standard or working ability, I am saying they don't all have to be and as the previous poster implied that was the criteria not the health testing or COI measurment!

Masajackrussell.  No one said they shouldn't be breed standard or poor quality!  If a human wasn't a perfect breed standard, would they be rejected!  Hitler thought that!!! Lets get rid of anybody or anything that doesn't meet my criteria. Get a grip!  The world isn't perfect and human babies aren't either,  Tunnel vision or what?

Quite agree, my current pet collie is from health tested parents & bred to fulfill the breed standard. If I was looking for another I wouldn't buy a pup from non health tested pet untypical parents. I want my Collies to look like collie

Not a snob regarding dogs as I also have 2 rescue mongrels(not crossbreed-simple mongrels)

Yes Ann & I have 2 rescue crosses which are 7 & 9 years of age and I adore them & would never ever part with them and the reason I am so angry at all this 'perfection crap'
Do they want a loving companion or a 'show piece'? I want I want what about what these dogs need no matter what they look like?

> No one said they shouldn't be breed standard or poor quality!  If a human wasn't a perfect breed standard, would they be rejected!  Hitler thought that!!! Lets get rid of anybody or anything that doesn't meet my criteria. Get a grip!

You clearly differentiated between show quality and pet quality. Reputable breeders breed to keep as close to the breed standard as possible. Not all will go to show homes but those that go to pet homes should be as good quality as possible and as close to the breed standard and health tested. The idea of ‘it’s only a pet’ is the reason why people buy from byb’s and puppy farms. It’s our duty to the dogs to make sure they are as healthy both genetically and conformation wise as possible.

I never said get rid of anything either. Just that all breeders should be aiming to produce good quality dogs. What this has to do with Hitler I’ve no idea.

Edited to change a spelling mistake

> Quite agree, my current pet collie is from health tested parents & bred to fulfill the breed standard. If I was looking for another I wouldn't buy a pup from non health tested pet untypical parents. I want my Collies to look like collie

Exactly Ann.

>how frequently do they breed and do they show or work their dogs

no more than twice a year and they only breed for health and temperament .  The pedigree includes many show lines but these dogs stay in the house as a pet.

If you aren't breed to the standard then the dogs stop looking like the breed that they pertain to be, the breed which surely is what people want to look like and behave like. We will end up with breeds that don't look or behave what they should be and we might as well be buying bitza dogs from rescues.
There is a standard for a reason.
I wouldn't want a Labrador that looks like a Vizzie cross or a greyhound cross.
I wouldn't want a Rottweiler with the head that looks more collie like.
We will soon lose the the breed type if people just breed what is registered as a breed but really doesn't meet the standard in most ways.

Working ability is a little different, it shouldn't be as a Collie should be able to do the job and meet the standard and the same for Labs too but they have almost become 2 different breeds and rapidly so over the past 30yrs.

I look back at our old Labs gone by, all working lines and all had good length of leg but had the correct head and body. So think show lines now with better length of leg. Why this split its sad to see and the same for many other breeds too but that's another topic.

Show dogs are pets 365 days a year, and at most Show Dogs at a few weekends a month.

The bitches are breeding animals a couple of times in their lives, males maybe more, and many are never bred from.

I usually did about 20 shows of various types at my peak.

There are those who showed every weekend, or even twice, and others like me now, can only manage a small number of shows.

Dogs in Dog sports work for a minority of their time.

Even dogs who work daily as sheepdogs, Police dogs etc are mostly pets in their off time.

Getting back to the two litters in question.

The one with all Health tests, but higher COI than ideal seems the best bet.

There are few casual ignorant breeders who would Health Test to that degree, if at all, so I would hazard a guess that they considered they had good reasons for the choice of parents.

If every puppy ever bred was only to comply with breed standard or working ability, there would be no 'pet puppies' available....

Of course there would. And all the puppies would be responsibly bred, because that's how you do it. Never, ever aim for pets. Aim for the best. Aim for what the breed should be like, in both looks and temperament. You will never get an entire litter sold just to show homes, or to only serious working homes. You'd also be very lucky if you never produced a pup that had a fault preventing it from doing well at shows, or not having quite the ideal working qualities. You will always have pups needing pet homes, and why should the pet homes have to make do with a pup that wasn't bred to be the best? Long before I ever set foot inside a show ring and even longer (decades, in fact) before I took the step to breed, I always sourced my puppies, to be kept as pets only, from very wellknown, successful show breeders. I wanted the best dog. I wanted a dog that looked and acted like the breed I had decided on. I wanted a pet.

I have always felt it so sad when you meet dog owners who have the same breed as you do, but which are clearly "pet bred". That are too big or too small, have an incorrect coat or an incorrect temperament etc. I've said it here many times before but when I kept Cavaliers I was regularly stopped by other owners who admired their looks -their typical breed standard look, despite being pets only and two having minor faults making them not suitable for showing. (Markings, mainly. Many breeds can produce mismarks.) The saddest was the one who looked at their own dog who was several inches taller with a very different type and temperament, and ruefully said "I thought my dog would end up looking like yours do, like the photos in the books I read before getting a puppy."

Some breeds are so far removed from what they used to look like, simply because people had no other aim than producing pets when breeding. Not being knowledgeable enough to spot faults that soon became fixed. Just a few examples of such breeds (ignoring the designer crossbreeds as they don't come into it here) would be Staffies, Pomeranians, Labradors, Yorkshire Terriers, Cavaliers, Chihuahuas.

I think of breeding as if quality can be assessed by number. Of course the whole thing is complicated and dogs are much more than numbers, but I think it illustrates the point.

Let’s assume a 10 point scale, with 10 being an almost perfect example of the breed. 10s are rare, obviously.

If you start with a pair of 9s, they will mostly produce other 9s, probably with a few 8s. If you’re lucky and/or chose the parents well, you might get a 10, and yay, that’s a champion! Other breeders/exhibitors/competitors will take the 9s, you might keep the best 9, the 8s go to pet homes.

Start with 5s, the best you’re probably ever going to produce is a 6. Also some 5s and 4s.

They might make fantastic pets, but it’s just as easy to start with better quality animals in the first place so all our pups are as good as they can possibly be, surely?

Yes, it’s eugenics, and it would be immoral to apply this to humans. But we are the ones who choose who our animals mate with (or if they mate at all), so we should make the best choices we can for them.

I’m not a purebred snob. My cat is a moggy, and one of my rabbits is a rescued lionhead lop crossbreed, and I love them just as much as my well bred papillon and two Netherland Dwarf bunnies. I just wouldn’t choose to breed my pet quality animals because there are already far too many pet quality animals out there in rescues and shelters.

(Everyone’s neutered except my show pap, of course.)

I saw this sentiment that resonated with me, posted on the website of a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel breeder who was a respected member here, and added to my page as part of the explanation of my breeding ethos.

" Over the years of breeding pedigree dogs, people often say that they "just want a pet puppy not a show dog". 

That's what I aim to produce - TYPICAL - WELL BRED - HEALTHY Norwegian Elkhounds that judges will admire - but most importantly will make Great Companions for those who appreciate the breeds traits and original purpose."

That is the.principle of 'grading up' used in livestock breeding, be it farm or show.

If you couldn't obtain the highest quality, you used the top quality sires, and kept better than the dam in each generation ( in practice it's often 2 steps forward, one back).

It's a long process if your foundation is of lower quality.

Of course it works the other way when the breeding selection is poor.

This is why those untypical individuals in popular breeds sometimes have well known quality individuals way back in their pedigree, and why breeders choose to endorse their stock, to avoid them being used haphazardly as it impacts on their reputation for quality to have their line associated with poor specimins of their breed.

Also why occasionally despite the odds a top quality animal appears in a  a litter of less than stellar parentage.

Breeding is fascinating, for many of us more exciting than the exhibiting/working the dogs ourselves.

I am proud when I see dogs I have produced do well for others, or become parents of quality offspring that make a positive impact in the breed.

masajackrussell:  No I do not differentiate - your presumption.not my belief at all I merely pointed out that breed standard is not the be all and end all although important.  The Health Tests, Conformity & Temperament of a well 'thought out' Litter is key however, as usual you are cutting out those owners who want one litter from their girl to keep just one Puppy back and we've heard from many of them on here,

Their offspring may have longer than normal ears, coat etc (outwith conformity)  what do you suggest the breeder of this one litter should do with the others?

I agree as we are responsible breeders it's our duty comply but bleating on about BYB & Puppy Farmers never entered the OP's predicament, made no reference to and never mentioned through any of the thread until now....obesession re BYB & PF .  Playing devil's advocate is also something that clearly leads all into a 'rant'. 

The site is Champdogs Promoting Responsible Dog Breeding - Not POLICING Responsible Dog Breedng!

Imo promoting includes getting people to.consider why they are having a litter. Yes some maybe wanting to start a breeding program and advice for.that is helpful .others may have the idea they want a replica of.their bitch . Unlikely to happen and is it worth the risks and costs . Possibly old ideas I hope but my bitch needs to experience having a litter or its good for.my  kids to see the process , and other again imo ridiculous ideas
Pointing out the risks and costs both prior to breeding and possibilities if things don't go to plan. The fact that you are responsible or should be as to the pups you sell fpr life. Can u have them back if needed or help with rehoming for example is all important
This isn't policing to me its promoting good breeding by giving people.food for thought

Suejaw:  If you look back to pictures in really old books, there are hardly any breeds who look the same as they did then. Exaggerating your point below re how dogs might look in the future is describing a scenario straight out of the frankenstein movie. (unrealistic)  Of course evolution changes things - it's survival of the fitest not the best looking and it's breeding that has created the 'bubble' of change & expectation of how looks should be as time has gone on.

> what do you suggest the breeder of this one litter should do with the others?

They go as pets Hoggie like I said if you read my post properly - not all pups make the grade to show and work but the aim should always be to produce the best pups possible not 'pet puppies' - that is what BYB's and Puppy Farmers ultimately do - poorly bred pets.

ETA: A lot of show and working quality pups go purely as pets as well and pretty much all pups are pets first, then show/workers 2nd.

> No I do not differentiate - your presumption.not my belief at all

There was no presumption - your statement was clear - that if all dogs bred were show or working standard there would be no pet puppies - this is clearly a differentiation between the two. Perhaps you should read what you've written a few times before you actually press post to make sure what you are saying is what you actually mean.

I'm not the only one who responded to you on this - if you truly don't believe what you wrote then please think before you type.

> The site is Champdogs Promoting Responsible Dog Breeding - Not POLICING Responsible Dog Breedng!

And we are not policing we are educating - if someone reads your comment about pet puppies they could easily think that it is ok for people to breed away from the breed standard which, IMO and pretty much all other responsible breeders, it is not.

I cannot understand people who breed from their atypical pedigree dog to obtain another dog just like the dog they own.

I always remember an owner who used his non health tested unregistered Cavalier "Emperor" Charles Spaniel at stud(Emperor because he was the size of a working cocker) to obtain another dog just like his. The dog of course was a cross Cavalier x Welsh Springer, one of 12 puppies bred by a local puppy farmer from one of their WSS bitches, he proudly showed me photos of the litter with their mother!!! He wanted to produce more "Pets" without having to buy one & of course sell on his"stud fee" puppies.

I don't own crossbreed my rescues are mongrels, I would love another just like my Rommie, so should I have bred from him before having him castrated? The logic of people breeding from their non standard pedigree to obtain a successor would have said yes.

Sorry but if I want a specific breed I want it to be the correct size & to look like the breed & be from known healthy parent's

Ann R Smith:  People who breed from their atypical pedigree dog to obtain another just like the dog they own:
Many one off breeders have expressed the wish to keep their special pet's traits & temperament going as well as their memory.  It's about
love of that pet and the comfort of still having 'something; of her with them when she passes away. I'm not saying it is right - just
understandable as a comfort to them.

Re your described owner.  They were probably ignorant to health testing etc etc - hopefully things are changing as education is now widely available
and hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I am sure nowadays all pets from a rescue have been neutered as mine were with a view to preventing further puppies being produced.
Even the smallest rescues in my area give the new owner a voucher toward the cost of the op.  so things are moving forward on that front.

masajackrussell:  Rubbish!  It seems to be policy on here to to look for the easiest possible phrases to be taken from a post and twisted judgement made deliberately to repeat back as totally unrecognisable - yes your presumption. The statement related to a previous post which you haven't read properly. Please stop the condescending attitude or instructions for posting or take it to PM. The whole point has been missed and the thread is in danger of becoming personal again and being 'locked'

Strangely the biggest changes are often in the most popular breeds, often overbred with a lot of casual breeding.

If you look at a lot of numerically small breeds, especially those used for a purpose, there are often only cosmetic changes like favoured coat shade/pattern.

See here: http://ravenstone.awardspace.co.uk/history.html

This https://www.britishpathe.com/video/our-dogs old video footage from the 30's showing dogs still recognisable today, tail carriage is better today, but structure unchanged.

Much easier to keep animals true to type with breeders keeping to standard.

In Scandinavia of course you can't have a show hunting split, as to gain titles in either arena they must past muster and qualify in the other.

Hunting dogs must gain 1st quality gradings at a number of shows, and show dogs must pass several hunting tests.

Some of our breed in the USA show rings have selected for more glamour size, as in many breed edging away from original true breed type, and there is no hunting check.

There is often Fashion in what wins, but generally the majority of breeders aim to stick to breeding to standard, notbto judges temporary preference.

If your in a breed for any time you will see the pendulum swing back and forth re details of favoured size, colour etc.

It’s not personal hoggie at all! You are posting on a written forum. If you don’t make it clear that what you write is not what you believe, if you don’t make it clear that you are ‘playing devils advocate’ as you say, then all anyone can do is take what you have written literally and respond accordingly!

Just be clearer or accept that people will respond as we are without saying they are presumptuous. All anyone can do on here is go off what is written in black and white. If you don’t believe it, don’t write it, or make it clear that the view is not your own. It’s very simple.

Furriefriends:  I agree with all you have said but there may be a better way of putting it across by some 'professionsals'  - terrifying people and ridiculing others point of view is not the way to educate IMO

I tend to say to anyone who only wants to breed a one off litter, to get one like Sally should rethink, and go back to Sally's breeder and have another from her mother, sister, niece etc.

Most when the responsibilities and risks ( and costs) are explained, realise that is a better option.

I have to admit one of my reasons for breeding has always been to always retain something of the beloved dogs I have lost.

Having been involved with small livestock breeding and showing, I was always going to want to found a breeding line of my own.

masajackrussell:  oh it's very personal...and as said before you may wish to advise members what and how to post but that would just be a reflection of what you yourself believe.
I clearly stated that not all dogs bred will comply to show type and that irrespective all puppies should be given a chance in life just like humans. How much clearer does it need to be?

To the original poster SM.  Think I understand why you are still pondering... your head must be buzzing with all this toing & froing. If the breeder can put you in touch with previous owners of their previous litters of the same parentage, that might help you make your decision alongside all the other considerations

> I clearly stated that not all dogs bred will comply to show type and that irrespective all puppies should be given a chance in life just like humans. How much clearer does it need to be?

And I never disagreed with you about puppies being given a chance. All I said is that breeders should be aiming to get as close to the breed standard as possible and that no one should be breeding poor quality pups just because they are ‘just pets’.

Take it personally if you want to Hoggie, your choice. Or just be clearer when you post. Up to you.

masajackrussell: Ignoring

> If a human wasn't a perfect breed standard, would they be rejected!  Hitler thought that!!!

The invocation of Godwin's Law means that the argument has been lost.

In an ideal world (which all breeders should be striving towards) the only reason why some dogs are champions and others not is that their owners aren't interested in showing them. The dogs with the 'purely pet' lifestyle, never to be bred from, deserve to be as carefully bred towards their breed standard, and with all health tests successfully passed, as the ones destined to produce the next generation. And their owners deserve that too!

>To the original poster SM.  Think I understand why you are still pondering... your head must be buzzing with all this toing & froing. If the breeder can put you in touch with previous owners of their previous litters of the same parentage, that might help you make your decision alongside all the other considerations

I appreciate all the advice given from experienced people and noted all Dos and Don'ts

Certainly not looking at non health tested ones.

As a buyer what we want is a healthy pup to be a part of family and who can grow with kids. We are not considering breeding from our pet (if we ever have one).

Though we can't guarantee that a litter from extensively health tested parents would not develop any problems in future but to minimise the risk it would be appropriate to have a pup from healthy pedigree.

We won't get rid of a dog if he develops any unknown health issues in future as you would not do this with your family member.

The another important aspect for us is to get a dog from honest and reliable Breeder who can provide support and keep in touch.

> The invocation of [url=undefined]Godwin's Law[/url] means that the argument has been lost.

Thankyou jeangenie.

As you say. Every puppy deserves to be bred to the highest standard possible and every owner deserves it too.

Then you are going about things the right way SM. If you want to choose one or the other then go with the assured breeder who has extensive health testing. The other option is to wait for a breeder who does things in a way you are happier with.

I have long admired your breed for it's all most constant type & character. I can remember a breeder with(to me) an pronouncable kennel name as well as the current breeders. I see little different of the breeds function & form in Europe over the years which is very heart-warming.

I'm fortunate in that my Rommie boy has many unrelated lookalikes in Romania in rescues there, my boy was only 18 weeks old when he came to me way to young to consider neutering especially as he is quite a big boy, if I should ever wish to have another dog.

Anyone who defends a one off litter from untested parents(including"accidental" unplanned negligent ones) is either a fool or/& stupid. Not necessary in this day & age

When you see the results of breeding from unhealth tested parents on TV programs, puppies with such dysplasia hips that they have to have hip replacementd under 12 months, no one should be foolish enough to even consider buying such a puppy, but they still do sadly

Jeangenie: Godwins Law: There are no winners or losers on this forum.  I believed when joining it was a Members area for debate re Dog Breeding. Never mind Godwin more for Goodness sake, this link is just more phsyco 'gobbildygook' who no one other than those who have to hide behind it's 'way off course message' finding solace in it. Maybe Stalin, Mousilini & the rest of the 'nut cases' who have been in charge of their country should have been brought under 'Godwins Law' umberella? or would that be politically incorrect to metion their names and be seen as losers? Seems some posters have used them as their Mentors - only IMO ofcourse.

I bought my first dog (as opposed to childhood dog bought by my parents) when I was 19, 50 years ago.
I didn’t know anything about health testing in those days until I visited the breeders of my Irish setter. They explained what it meant and what their dog had tested, all very educational.
I didn’t want to get involved in showing my dog or breeding, but what I did want was an Irish setter that looked like the pictures in the books I had.
As time has passed and more dogs have come to live with us I have learned more and more. Still don’t want to show or breed dogs, but what I do want is a dog that is healthy from health tested parents, has a good temperament and looks like the breed it is meant to be. The best way of getting that is to go to a show breeder who is not only breeding for health and temperament but also to type. I fully understand that not all puppies from a litter would be show quality anyway and that most puppies from show breeders will go to pet homes. A very good friend of mine now retired from showing, breeding and judging labradors has helped to fill in any gaps in my knowledge.
I made a rookie mistake of buying a puppy from a breeder who although was health testing, didn’t show her dogs nor seemed to notice that she was producing dogs with a poor temperament. I thought I had not socialised the dog properly when a pup, but then gradually met more and more people with grumpy nervous dogs from the same breeder. Sadly one of them who was so highly nervous she completely shut down if a stranger stopped to say hello. She was in at the vets to confirm pregnancy. I often wonder whether her puppies were as scared of life as she was..
If anyone asks about the best way of avoiding puppy farms I advise them to go to show breeders and where are the best places to find puppies available. The usual response is ‘but I don’t want to show my dog I only want a pet’ and my answer is ‘I take it you want a healthy, good natured dog that looks like the breed it’s supposed to be’.

I do get cross that Vets only seem to push neutering, and do not advertise mismate remedial action (ALIZIN or Gravid spay as a last resort).

Worse still I have never seen any information posters or leaflets advertising even the BVA/KC/ISDS health schemes (let alone DNA testing).

Yet they pillory Breeders, but are quite happy to encourage fluffy's owners when she is pregnant.

I've been lucky with my dogs going back 60+ years, if I bought I bought from breeders with good reputations, something my late Grandad taught me. He had Boxers that were bred by a breeder whose dogs were all from German imports. Big beautiful dogs with a wicked sense of humour & perfect temperaments.

Even my rescues eventually developed into nice pets.

Like you I want my dogs to look like the breed they are & have good health & 100% character & temperament.

Brainless:  Vets & Neutering: Breeding for so many years now and having great relationships with my Vets, I knew nothing about (ALIZIN or Gravid spray before joining CD Forum). 
As Vets we rely on their experience/valuable advice and never once have I been advised about Health Testing BVA/KC/ISDS nor have I ever seen a poster in their surgery relating to Breeding Advice being offered.
On one ocassion when I took my girl to be scanned and had her paperwork file with me, the Vet in question was surprised that she had even had her hips & elbows scored never mind DNA Testing. 
Is it any wonder some have had to learn by their mistakes?
It's not the people who wish to extend their knowledge that should shoulder the onslaught of the Forum for ignorance, it is the professionals who should be there in an advisory capacity that need questioning.
I suppose it offers them more Puppies to be chipped,vaccinated, health checked etc.  'it's all about the money honey' phrase which is a practice most on here objects to in any way.

It’s very sad I think. When I was trying to reference my (European) breeder, I was able to locate someone else in the UK who had also imported a puppy from a different breeder but by the same sire as mine. Lovely lady but told me she had seen the puppy advertised on social media and wanted her for her colour. She wrongly assumed this colour was unavailable in the UK, it’s already her intention to breed this dog (note this colour is in the BS). A family member is involved in breeding dogs and exclusively used AI (I imagine perhaps a bull breed), she seemed to think that this was the best way for dogs to be bred and said she intended to do this in a breed which I would be surprised has ever had a handful of AI matings (of which I assume would be for improving genetic diversity only).

Thankfully I have been able to pass this lady onto the UK based breeder who is mentoring me, this breeder is massively supportive of improving health in our breed and thankfully has been able to provide some persuasion on the unnecessary use of AI as well as health related matters.

When speaking to this lady afterwards, she was extremely upset about the conversation on health, she has no knowledge but her heart is in the right place and she was terrified of breeding puppies with potentially serious issues. She said when speaking to her vet they had not told her about any schemes she should be considering, nor tried to give her any information about the use of AI. The breeder I have referred her to of course has said absolutely no AI.

My girl’s parents had to pass a breeding exam, again, why does the KC not introduce this and ensure all puppies intended to be registered should be tested and only bred with complementing statuses. It is only at this point the uneducated (with the right intentions), will sit up and take notice.

> why does the KC not introduce this and ensure all puppies intended to be registered should be tested and only bred with complementing statuses.

I expect because they would lose an incredible amount of money this way. All the bybs, commmercial breeders and puppy farmers who currently register puppies with no health tests, incomplete testing or poor results would just stop registering I think. I doubt the threat of non registration would be enough to make them start caring about the ‘fine details’ so to speak. As much as I agree with you (as do most on here I’m sure) I just don’t think it will happen

Pleased to hear that your mentor has taken on your friend. Another one going in the right direction thankfully!

>Breeding for so many years now and having great relationships with my Vets, I knew nothing about (ALIZIN or Gravid spray before joining CD Forum)

This is why it's best practice to be involved in the world of dogs before breeding; to have learned a lot about one's chosen breed by reading all the available books, reading online articles, joining one of the breed clubs (where there are far more breed specialists than any vet practice can shake a stick at!), and testing one's beloved dog/s against the breed standard. Most vets have never even attended a natural birth, and can't be expected to have learned the particular traits of every breed; they are not the best people to advise about responsible breeding!

> This is why it's best practice to be involved in the world of dogs before breeding; to have learned a lot about one's chosen breed by reading all the available books, reading online articles, joining one of the breed clubs (where there are far more breed specialists than any vet practice can shake a stick at!), and testing one's beloved dog/s against the breed standard. Most vets have never even attended a natural birth, and can't be expected to have learned the particular traits of every breed; they are not the best people to advise about responsible breeding!

Indeed! And why showing is so important despite the opinions of some on here! An experienced and responsible mentor is essential before you start breeding in my book. It's so easy to find information as well that there isn't really any excuse for poor breeding such as from poor conformation, poor health test results or even none! As you say, vets know very little about breeding. One even told my friend that alizin didn't exist!

why does the KC not introduce this and ensure all puppies intended to be registered should be tested and only bred with complementing statuses.



>I expect because they would lose an incredible amount of money this way<

There is a legal reason that the KC cannot for enforce a health testing rule before registering puppies. It comes under the restrictions of trade legislation.

In order to enforce such a rule ALL the breed clubs for the breed have to agree to it.

The 2 varieties of Irish Setter breed clubs actually managed to bring in the eventual ban on breeding from dogs affected by or carrying the CLAD mutation &/or the PRA gene because they all agreed

Some GSD clubs(those preferring the breed as bred in Germany/Europe)tried for many years to bring in compulsory health testing, but were thwarted by the clubs whose members breed the"English"Alsatian"type at every turn.

Unlike the ISDS, who you have to be a member of in order to have puppies from your dog/bitch registered with, who CAN & do enforce health testing requirements, as you agree to abide by their rules to do so when you join. They now insist on DNA testing of puppies from known carriers so that their DNA status is known & not just guessed at. There is talk of parental DNA testing if a puppy is found to have a genetic mutation that neither parent appears to carry, this is after a dog allegedly produced 1 CEA affected puppy out of 69 litters. DNA testing proved the stud dog did not carry the mutation & subsequent parental DNA testing proved he was NOT the sire.

Oh wow really interesting! Thanks Ann. Shame the breed clubs aren’t up for it

Jeanjenie I agree re the Vet not being a great fountain of knowledge or experience in Breeding which is exactly what the whole post I wrote was about. Are you sure most Vets haven't attended a natural birth though??? They seem very knowledgable to me from my experience and I have been very lucky to have had their support during very complicated births and gone on to save the animals life...Re Book reading, differnet online articles and breed club advice these are things I have undertaken.  ALIZIN - I have never been interested in aborting little lives.

> ALIZIN - I have never been interested in aborting little lives.

Ideally Alizin is used more like morning After birth control.

It is administered as two injections 2 days apart after the season has ended.

There will be cases where an owner becomes aware that they can still prevent an unwanted pregnancy after this time, up to 45 days.
https://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/?id=-459939

It works differently than the old mismate injection Delvesteron, which was given within 48 hours of mating, and worked on interupt ing the hormone cycle.

Problem was it restarted or prolonged the season. The danger was that another mismating could occur during that cycle. Sometimes it didn't disrupt things enough to prevent pregnancy, resulting in a Singleton in one case.of someone I know.

It was most often used to postpone, or prevent seasons.

It was known for predisposing bitches to cystic ovaries, increased risk of pyo. Not ideal for a breeding prospect.