Round here, it's owners too lazy and ignorant to bother 'socialising'  - that would take thought and effort.

Then there are the ones who believe their dogs should be allowed to do anything they like, pretty much like their kids, and woe betide anyone who disagrees.

And the third group of ignoramus,  those who just believe their dog is totally harmless and wouldn't hurt a fly, whilst ignoring the fact that the dog is flattening every other dog it comes into contact with.

If we could start tomorrow keeping reactive or aggressive dogs muzzled and out of off lead areas and letting all pups socialise themselves with friendly, calm adults without humans calling them back or pulling their collars or passing anxiety down the lead then in a few years time off lead areas would be full of calm, sociable dogs with good manners

This is how I remember things.  In the good old days when numpty's dogs were allowed to roam without human interference.  At least they were well socialised.  There were fewer huge dogs too which helped.  Despite the number of dogs roaming loose, I never had much cause to worry about the safety of my dog, and he knew all the local dogs and was happy to meet them.

>If we could start tomorrow keeping reactive or aggressive dogs muzzled and out of off lead areas and letting all pups socialise themselves with friendly, calm adults without humans calling them back or pulling their collars or passing anxiety down the lead then in a few years time off lead areas would be full of calm, sociable dogs with good manners<br /><br />This is how I remember things.  In the good old days when numpty's dogs were allowed to roam without human interference.  At least they were well socialised.  There were fewer huge dogs too which helped.  Despite the number of dogs roaming loose, I never had much cause to worry about the safety of my dog, and he knew all the local dogs and was happy to meet them.

Funnily enough that is what it was like around here 20 years ago.

but that was before we had the over representation of Staffie type dogs, largely owned by very un-savvy owners, large bully types like American bulldogs, and on top of that in last five or so years handbag dogs with equally un-savvy owners, many of who seem terrified of other dogs.

(Bit late on the uptake here) but I would have to agree with you Jan (although I can see both sides of the story).

I have stopped letting my terrier off lead because 1) I can't 100% guarantee that I can call her off another dog (she is very very sociable and would approach anything). And with the number of "unsociable dogs" on lead you don't know what might happen. 2) We have a few FB groups for my area that have ladies with nothing better to do than post about "local owners with no recal skills" and thus generating a slagging match about those owners (I worry to death about them publicly complaining about me!) 3) I hate confrontation! Often people are like "it's okay she's playing" but if someone were to tell me to put her on a lead I would shut myself in the house and cry for a month. I kid you not.

Tolerance is certainly what's needed. I find it's these "type of people" that make dog ownership really unpleasurable. Which is a shame. I know I should have 100% recal if I'm going to go off lead but how does one ever practice with all the distractions available without doing it in the park where there are people walking other dogs? Maybe I care too much of what people think (that's what the OH says when I get worried about the most recent FB rant about someone's exhuburant dog) but it genuinely scares me off from walking my dog sometimes. I can't do it at 6:30 or midnight so don't have much choice :(

But then I can see that the weight thing is an issue - I usually reply that my terrier is made of rubber, but that's obviously not true. She is tiny so could be easily injured. Not to mention a broken leg which would put an end to her showing career. There are both sides to consider I guess!

>but that was before we had the over representation of Staffie type dogs, largely owned by very un-savvy owners, large bully types like American >bulldogs, and on top of that in last five or so years handbag dogs with equally un-savvy owners, many of who seem terrified of other dogs.

Yes!

>There are both sides to consider I guess!

Absolutely. Both sides are equally right - and wrong. And both sides - the 'let your dog run riot and bounce all over everyone without any canine manners' and the 'put your dog on a lead as soon as you see another dog and only artificially introduce them so they don't learn canne manners' sides - make dog walking a stressful, miserable time.

Socialisation is not shorthand to ket your pup off-lead to run around with other dogs without supervision. Supervised and careful off-lead access to other dogs should be carried out from day one. The dog that flies over at top speed is as likely rambunctious and undisciplined as anything else, he has no boundaries and, in my experience, his owner will have always let him off-lead at the first possible moment and for the duration of all his walks. His behaviour is habitual and if he is a larger breed with very low social thresholds it would take a very severe reaction by another dog to put him off.

The notion that we simply leave it up to other dogs to teach our own dogs their p&q's (other dogs we may not know anything about) strikes me as slightly barking.

Just wanted to add that in terms of "sides" I'm not sure that anyone has suggested that you put your dog on a lead every time you see another dog, however, if you see that another dog is on a lead you should have sufficient control over yours to stop him going over and pestering the other dog. If you cannot perhaps more training is required? If dogs frequently find other dogs more enticing than their owner I suspect there may be work required...perhaps a rethink about activities on the walk. If it is all about meeting other dogs and that us the highlight for your dog then obviously all he'll ever want is to get to the first dog he meets.

>If we could start tomorrow keeping reactive or aggressive dogs muzzled and out of off lead areas

Why stop there??? why not just put down all these horrible aggressive dogs!!!

I have just had a lovely walk with my "aggressive" foster dog. We saw several dogs and even stopped to talk to one owner with a small well behaved dog. We saw several cyclists which he had a problem with when he came, and he just looked at them and carried on playing with his ball. There was not a single growl or bark from this "aggressive" dog.

He is only "aggressive"  if something pushes him to it. Same as me really. I  can walk down the street among lots of people with no reaction to them, but if a strange man were to come up to me and start feeling my bum you can bet I would react very aggressively towards him. If a teenage yob were to come up to me and start swearing  and pushing me around then again I might well have a few choice words to say. Someone said we should not hold dogs to a higher standard that we hold our selves or our children. Well I totally agree. We should not expect our dogs to put up with rudness or ill manners without a peep.

Sqwoofle, you sound very responsible and it can be really difficult to translate recall from home and a low distraction environment to the park or field. What sort of games do you play with your terrier when you are out and what is her favourite game? Do you ever use a trailing line?

Generally the hardest thing to recall from is chasing  and activities that involve prey drive so if it is just meeting other dogs you have a better chance.

Dogs usually like to meet other dogs because they get to do behaviours that they cannot do with us - chasing each other, wrestling, boxing and light playbiting- essentially hunting and fighting skills. The challenge for us is to find suitable and enjoyable outlets for those urges and to keep such activities with a favourite toy exclusively for the walk. Problem is this does take a deal of thought, time and energy, until we have the dog hooked.

>The notion that we simply leave it up to other dogs to teach our own dogs their p&q's (other dogs we may not know anything about) strikes me as slightly barking.

Each species is best at teaching the manners of its own species than another can ever be. Owners can never hope to do it as well, because human ideas of 'politeness' are so different - for example dogs get pulled away when they bottom-sniff because 'it's rude' and so the dog learns to be tense in that normal situation.

>I'm not sure that anyone has suggested that you put your dog on a lead every time you see another dog

Sadly I've seen it written on here plenty of times that that is exactly what everyone should do. :-( And we're supposed to be the knowledgeable ones!

> Furthermore, no one appreciates being told what to do by other members of the public and a sure way of antagonising others is to shout orders at them.

My dog is kept on-lead/long-line for a few reasons -
1 just your dog being loose can be enough for it to be classed as out of control in a public place (that's not a worry for people with most breeds, but when you have a 75 kg dog that people get a fright just by looking at you make sure you are aware of it)
2 due to his size he could easily injure another dog by ACCIDENT, even though he is friendly. As a responsible owner, I do not want to be responsible for that happening.
3. he has mobility issues so his excersise needs to be controlled.
4. because of his size it increases the chance of predatory drift, so I prefer to keep as much control over him as possible.
5 He play bow is enough to send most dogs running in fright :( 

I must add despite being kept n a lead or long-line he has actually been trained and socialised - one does not need to let their dog ambush and prance over every other dog to be 'taught' by strange dogs - that's the owners job.

What irritates me most when out on walks is seeing somebody let their loose, hooligan like dogs run up to and prance all over other peoples dogs, then when their dogs attempt to do that to MY dog, the owner suddenly remembers how to call their dogs back, or runs like a rocket to grab thier dog and physically control it. I actually don't mind dogs running up to my dog, he's friendly and welcomes it, if things turn bad before I have chance to intervene, he is plenty big and strong enough to take out any threat and look after himself, but that is the very reason people will not let their loose dogs ambush him like they do other dogs - they are ONLY concerned for their own dogs safety - they are NOT bothered about their dogs having an 'active social life'. It's this selfish, inconsiderate attitude that gets peoples backs up.

> I didn't yell -'get your dog on the b...dy  lead'.

I've never had to say that, in fact I always shout out "don't worry, my dog's friendly", to try to calm the owner from the absolute panick they are in because their loose, out of control dog has ran up to a giant dog, but the owners are never reasured by that.
Funny how these owners can see the possible danger thier OWN dog may be in, for rushing up to my dog, but never worry about the possible problems for anybody eles' leashed dog that gets ambushed by thier dog.........................
Tollerance is not what is lacking - respect and consideration for other dog owners and their leashed dogs is what is lacking!!!

JG,

Basic manners are taught by the bitch to her litter, the pups broadly understand dogs that look and behave like mum, thereafter dogs widen their knowledge of other breeds and types but different social thresholds and physiology means that process is not as straightforward as we might hope. As a species dogs are incredibly diverse and that in itself means that communication is not a given.An extreme example is the young large breed dog that for the first time meets a toy breed of the very furry type- size difference alone makes signalling difficult and I have known of dogs that react not as to another dog but more as if the other dog is a small furry or a toy,  the smaller dog is duly grabbed and ragged - smaller dog badly injured or dead.

I do agree that pups need supervised time off-lead on a regular basis to learn about as many different types of dog as possible,but the owner is always watchful and ready to intervene if things start to look as though they are getting out of hand, just as a mother bitch would do. Things can change again once hormones kick in- do we let our teenage intact male learn about other males by letting him off to take his chances and rehearse and hone his competitive skills if and when he is targeted by another male? What if that other male is of a certain type that has been selectively developed never to back down?

In days of old dogs were also worked, they had an outlet for innate drives and dogs in the field or at work would not be allowed to go and jump all over other dogs. If pack type dogs they learned for the most part to behave in a controlled way around other dogs. Independent breeds would not have other dogs forced on them because it would be understood that those kinds of dog would not tolerate space invasion by a strange dog.

If we want to achieve some kind of harmony there are probably two courses open to us, either to broaden our knowledge of different types of dog and accept they will not all just rub along if left to their own devices so we manage interactions and ensure our dogs have suitable play and drive outlets, or we simply only keep dogs for pet ownership, only keeping those with very low social thresholds and low drives and independence and forget about bull breeds, Akitas and other aloof breeds, certain terriers, various strong drive hunting and guarding breeds.

I am not disagreeing with everything you say but I think modern dog ownership is more pressured and people are also too quick to label a dog that snaps as aggressive. As we know, fear/anxiety can be triggered by just one bad episode and generalises fast while being impossible to erase completely, a sensitive pup can be terrified by an event that might seem innocuous to the owner of a thick skinned pup/dog.

Anyway, think this is a really important discussion and we can all learn from it.

Great post ML. I encourage owners to say in an ultra friendly sing-song voice something like 'my dog is scared of your dog can you call yours away', it can also be useful to throw some smelly treats or a toy towards the other dog and hope to distract them. Shouting and getting angry is never good because it winds our own dog up more. Easy to say, not always easy to do. However, your example shows that much of it is laziness it is not until I think my dog might be in trouble that I suddenly engage.

Round here, it's owners too lazy and ignorant to bother 'socialising'  - that would take thought and effort.

There >was< mile upon mile of misleading utter tosh, talked about that >'like that'< in the first 6 or 7 years of UK dog forums net.

The manner & way it was talked about, & Brainless' post seems in very similar style (still), was that all a 'caring' puppy or pet owner had to do was either wander into the local park & their puppy would soon be surrounded by dogs rolling on their backs in submission, offering treats to the now little pup, top toeing around the new pup, who was on its early exposures to strange, usually, older, dogs of its own species all of whom were barking "Be carefull guys, new a new puppy comes amongst us" warnings around the park to other peers all around the park..........ending up with an innocent new pet owner wandering into the park only to find pup was bowled over in minuets, dog barking & yapping at it, fighting over its squeaky toy.......& all that chaos, at least thats the way it was in cities, country areas might have been different.......that description is what amounted to socialising.
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>wander into the local park & their puppy would soon be surrounded by dogs rolling on their backs in submission

Why on earth would adult dogs be 'submitting' to a puppy? That's not normal canine behaviour at all.

Why on earth would adult dogs be 'submitting' to a puppy? That's not normal canine behaviour at all.

Of course its not, I did not say or imply that I meant it was!
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So interesting reading this thread. Thank you for responses to my post. I'm off to France tomorrow and don't have internet there. Where we are going  is a rural area but my dogs will not be able to enjoy the freedoms we still have in the UK.The nearby forest is peppered with notices restricting dogs to on lead exercise only. Our neighbours keep their dogs confined to outdoor kennels/runs. It is a rare sight indeed to see a dog being taken for a walk. The  locals consider my permitting the dogs freedom of the house bizarre.

      Travelling around France on public transport is extremely difficult. Dogs have to pay child fare and more on trains. In Paris ( and I'm sure other cities in France )they are banned from metro and buses. Try crossing Paris from one station to another with  Border Collies plus luggage. I'm still recovering. How fortunate we are in this country. But we risk losing these freedoms as areas fall under Dog Control orders. If we truly are a dog loving nation, surely we need to love our neighbours' dogs as we love our own. Sorry if this sounds a bit evangelical ( I'm not religious ) but I'm trying to say less confrontation and more constructive dialogue. I've been 'felled' by boisterous dogs yet find it easy to ask the owners  to 'pop ' doggies on lead until me and my guys are out of the way. Similarly, I do the same if I think my dogs might cause anxiety in other dogs/humans. It's not rocket science. I make mistakes, don't we all? But threatening Dog Warden intervention etc does not help our cause. The post concerning a Facebook forum denouncing dog owners made my blood boil/run cold. I don't 'do' Facebook. Why don't these people have the courage to get out into the real world - and spend more time with their dogs and people? I would be very upset by such unwonted  denunciation. It is cowardly and inappropriate, especially when done under pseudonym.
So, less aggro and more constructive dialogue please. Nobody is perfect and nobody has perfect dogs.  Nervous/unsocial dogs need to be exercised in carefully controlled environments. Shouting /screaming at other dog owners only serves to aggravate the condition/situation. Dogs intuit human behaviour and will react accordingly.  To reiterate, there are plenty of dog walking area where onlead exercise only is permitted. Nervous/reatcive dogs can feel safe in such situations and socialisation effected in a controlled manner. As for the rest of us, lets be sensible. Let's prove we can all get along without the need for legislation and restrictions on our freedom to walk our dogs off lead. Otherwise we risk losing all that we have.

p.s. I'm old enough to remember the days when dogs roamed free in our streets.  Indeed, as a child I would gather  together the ones in my neighbourhood and walk them over the local moor. Never a problem. They all got on well. A lot on the radio about stressed out cats - what are we doing to our dogs ?
p.p.s
re. use of muzzles -absolutely agree that they are underused. Dog owners feel a sense of shame/failure /last resort. I point out that dog owners use them for many reasons e.g. stop doggie eating poo ( fox/dog/human- yep, it happens) out on walks and also prevent pinching other dogs' toys. No judgement /shame involved. Just a sensible precaution

>Of course its not, I did not say or imply that I meant it was!

Then you need to totally reword your previous post, because you've utterly misinterpreted Brainless!

Then you need to totally reword your previous post, because you've utterly misinterpreted Brainless!

If you pointed out what >>you<< think I meant & >>why<< then I would be able to re-read the areas of my post to see where or if I went wrong.

Consider this post a request to you - thanks.
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