> it will be interesting to see if the group judge does.

Did the animal get placed or shortlisted by the group judge?  If not then I don't see any blame being appropriate there.

Except under the new rules they should have asked for the dog to be withdrawn and given a report to the show secretary. These days you are not supposed to judge a dog that is obviously sick or lame, unless I have misunderstood.

Nova,

That is a difficult one. What makes it more difficult still is that while commentating live on the group Jessica Holme almost immediately commented on the bitch being lame in a voice filled with dismay. Frank Kane countered by saying she had moved well in the breed classes earlier.....ahem.

In fairness to the judge the bitch did not make the cut for the group. My primary concern is with the judging of the breed classes and with the owner of the bitch, who, let's face it, must have known something was not right...even if it was the case that the dog had cramp for the whole day.

Yes freelancerukuk - I do agree that the breed judge should have dealt with the situation, it is possible that the group judge did not notice until he moved her, then it is very difficult to do much.

However the breed judge and the commentator do need to be taken to task and perhaps the group judge should watch his entry come in then he could have dealt with the situation before it became evident to thousands that one of the dogs was very lame, not just slightly it was unmissable.

I think the steward(s) should have pointed out to the group judge that she was lame and then when he saw it for himself, the group judge SHOULD have immediately and politely asked the handler to remove the dog from the ring and take it to see a vet.

I can appreciate that, in a ring like crufts main arena, one would not wish to make a scene but i think making a scene would have been better than letting effectively the whole world see a lame dog being shown!

Whilst it is good that this video was released, in that the movement and judging decisions have been seen  by many not ringside, does it not seem typical of the KC's lack of PR sense that this particular footage was released at all?

>Is there likely to be any benefit in someone such as myself, who ONLY saw the Crufts footage and is not involved with the breed or even particularly with showing at the moment, in trying to complain?>

I have.. I don't expect a reply as my compaint was only sent via the KC website.. but I shall be emailing again, once I have a direct email address or such.  I shall also be emailing ALL the breed clubs in the UK, the same as a lot of other exhibitors have.

I no longer exhibit, and after having lost my darling Tess earlier this year, I probably won't in the near future.  BUT, I have a deep deep passion for the breed & I feel I can't just sit by and let this get swept under the carpet.

Thank you for your words of support re the 'tittle tattle' comment I made :)
I just wanted to make sure people know that many people, as SBT lovers, aren't going to let this go... in fact the person who has initiated the letter to the KC etc, is a friend who I admire and respect very much.  I am so glad that there is someone involved in our breed that has his dedication.  This person has written to all the breed clubs too, asking for their backing in contacting the KC.  We'll see....

One of the most outrageous parts of one particular video for me is where the female judge can clearly be seen to say 'do they have to film it'.  That for me is the nail in the coffin.  1m:55s into the video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdwGyw64sdA

I think the steward(s) should have pointed out to the group judge that she was lame and then when he saw it for himself, the group judge SHOULD have immediately and politely asked the handler to remove the dog from the ring and take it to see a vet.


It has nothing to do with the stewards, they may or may not be judges themselves but even if they are they are not allowed to speak about the dogs to the judges - it is just not anything to do with the stewards. The stewards job is to arrange the ring according to the judges wishes and to do the clerical work - absolutely nothing to do with judging the dogs.

I've looked at that bit TT and it's possible the Mrs Hunter is saying that- but I'm not a lip reader so not completely sure. It would be interesting to know what she said for sure.

However, aside from the obvious lameness of the bitch is the fact that the owner has to keep stacking her and re-stacking her as she will not stay in position, perhaps because she is in pain. You can see her right leg shaking at points.

There seems to have been a concerted attempt to avoid filming the bitch on the move, the camera crew seem to focus on the dog's movement, only picking up on the bitch by accident.

You can see ringside that people have been filming too, I wonder if that footage is available as evidence?

I just have a suspicion that the KC will try to wriggle out of this one.

I was shocked again to discover that Dr Archie Bryden, the other half of the BOB judging duo along with Jan Hunter, is the health coordinator for the Stafford Breed Council :o

Again, well done to you and to those in your breed who have decided to tackle this. It takes guts but the show world needs more people like you and fewer of the silly handshake variety. Please don't let this one go.

Re the filming comment, could it be possible she is just saying it because she herself does not want to be filmed as doesn't like that sort of thing? Not everyone is comfortable with being filmed and find it embarrassing.
Of course she shouldn't agree to judge at crufts if she doesn't want to run the risk of being on tv, but that may just just have been an 'innocent' comment with no connection to her thoughts on the bitch.

If the exhibitors had complained straight away to the KC before the group judging would the KC not have got the vet to check the bitch over?

I hope someone takes notice, but sadly too late for the dog CC who may have done good in the group.

Lorripop,

Fair comment about the possibility of a camera-shy judge at Crufts- we cannot know for sure what she said and why. That aside, it would take a very brave exhibitor to insist a dog is removed from the ring. Though, for all we know, complaints may have been made on the day and were ignored, time will tell.

The key point here is that the judge is expected to be fair, to be honorable and impartial, to have the skills for the job and to put up the best dog on the day. Dogs that are lame cannot be placed, that is quite clear. Such dogs should technically be removed from the ring but, in my view, the point is made quite as well by simply not placing the dog- if there are only three dogs in a class the third award is withdrawn, and so on. If it is the case that the dog has cramp or a thorn in its pad that is causing a temporary problem on that day then it is not permanently disbarred from showing. However, I do agree that a vet check should also be made on the day.

On this day of shame it would appear that the judge/s concerned are in breach of the KC's own written guidelines and code of conduct for judging.

> Dogs that are lame cannot be placed, that is quite clear.

Is there a rule that says something like that. I am just wondering if the judge could attempt to justify her choice by saying that even though the dog was lame it was such an outstanding dog that it was better than all the others even though it couldn't move?

"Judges should never award prizes to dogs which are visibly suffering from any
condition which would adversely affect their health or welfare. For example:
  lameness - including 'hopping'"

and of late one gets the impression that such dogs should not even be judged being dismissed from the ring (have I misunderstood this, it is my impression from recent communications)

However even if this dog was not sent from the ring according to the KC own words it should not have been placed no matter how good it was otherwise. You judge the dog on the day, and in the ring, it does not matter why the dog was lame it was and should not be placed.

See this link http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=4176&d=pndpr&h=pnhpr&f=pnfpr

It addresses vet checks and the 15 high profile breeds felt to have issues vis a vis the new KC regulations. Though not stated one can infer that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Quite simply a lame dog is less fit for function than one that is not, all other things being equal.

The vet checks for the 15 high profile breeds do not actually have any bearing on the awards or indeed judging of any other breed and until the KC adopt a more even handed stance to vet checking geese and ganders can't be assumed.

As things stand, whatever the breed a sick, lame or obviously distressed dog should not be placed and I believe should not be judged. Although as with all matters judging it is a matter of interpretation what constitutes a sick, lame or distressed dog.

For those interested here is the bitch critique by judge Jan Hunter.

1 Blacker's Ch Crossguns Memphis Belle, outstanding brindle bitch, strong, powerful & well balanced. She was presented in tip-top condition. She is short coupled with a well defined ribcage, well developed hindquarters. Good depth & width to her front, which is straight & well boned. Her head is compelling with convincing dark eyes, they could be larger but her overall expression is very pleasing. Moved with purpose & alertness maintaining her good body shape. CC & BOB on an agreed decision with my fellow judge. I was sad to see that she entirely lost her breed ring form when later in the evening she appeared in the group ring;

Nova, yes you have a point though I cannot imagine that the definition of lameness as a disqualifying issue only applies to the fifteen high profile breeds, as I have said before, it feels a bit like a case of the Emporer's New Clothes. The dog we all think looks lame in the breed judging apparently moves  "with purpose and alertness maintaining her good body shape".

Sounds like an attempt to shut the stable door after the reputation had been lost.

'a quality bitch, strong powerful & so well balanced. She was presented in tiptop condition. She is short coupled with a well defined ribcage and good depth and width to her front which is straight and well boned. Her head is compelling with convincing dark eyes-they could be larger but her expression is pleasing. She moved with sufficient purpose maintaining her good body shape'

This is the critique for the same dog from 2009.  Same judge.

Regarding the 'do they have to film this'.. one of our esteemed Stafford colleagues is a qualified lip reader/signer... anyway.. that's by the by.

I've emailed all our breed clubs UK wide.  Have had responses from several.  Any letters/emails/complaints will be heard at their next commitee meetings.
The BC meeting took place last Saturday & "was made fully aware of the considerable amount of correspondence forwarded to the Kennel Club and as the matter is now, as the whole matter is now in the hands of the highest authority we are awaiting their forthcoming response to the full weight of concerns from all who like yourselves and from so many from here in the UK who want the correct form of action taken."

In regard to rulings:
Judging
1. Regulation F.9
In assessing dogs, judges must penalise any features or exaggerations which they consider
would be detrimental to the soundness, health or well being of the dog.
All dogs must be able to see, breathe, walk and be free from pain, irritation or discomfort.

And
10. Code of Best Practice for Judges
Paragraph 2.6
Judges should never award prizes to dogs which are visibly suffering from any condition
which would adversely affect their health or welfare. For example:
Lameness - including hopping.

> 'a quality bitch, strong powerful & so well balanced. She was presented in tiptop condition. She is short coupled with a well defined ribcage and good depth and width to her front which is straight and well boned. Her head is compelling with convincing dark eyes-they could be larger but her expression is pleasing. She moved with sufficient purpose maintaining her good body shape'
>
> This is the critique for the same dog from 2009.  Same judge.

this judge seems to be taking the whole showing world for idiots. Putting up an obviously seriously lame dog and then copying and pasting her critique. I admit she has added a few words here and therte but even so it is too similar to be a coincidence.

Why does she like this dog so much? and why on earth did the dog judge agree with her?

TBH it is not that surprising that a judge would write a very similar critique for the dog - people are apt to use similar words and she is after all describing the same dog. What does surprise me is that she nor the fellow judge seemed to notice the dog was lame, not just a little but all but carrying one leg.

What does alarm me is that the bitch was awarded the bitch CC and then the BOB - even if this bitch was streets ahead of the dog and all other bitch exhibits she should not have been given an award, even if the judges knew this bitch is normally sound she was not on the day.

If there was not another bitch worthy of the CC she should have withheld but as she awarded a RCC this can not apply.

TT,

Thank you for the update. I had wondered if you had a lip reader amongst you.

I was shocked to see that the other male judge who concurred with the BOB decision is the Staff BC Health advisor!!!!!!!

Please keep us informed.

I also agree with Nova that even if this bitch is the most perfect example of her breed around and in every other way a worthy winner, if she is lame on the day she cannot take top honours.

I would imagine the owner of the dog must feel pretty hacked off too.

Will keep you posted. 
Things on the move is all I can & want to say for now.
But will let you know an outcome as soon as we do. :)

aside from the judges making an incompetent decision, is it just me or should not the owners of the B.O.B. female come in for the same criticism, in that they took a bitch that was obviously suffering and subjected her to a long day of showing when she should have been laid comfortably at home trying to recover from whatever it was that was ailing her.is another cc that important to them when she already had so many.for me it was totally unacceptable and showed an uncaring side to the bitches owners (who are both incidentally championship show judges themselves).it has soured the whole show scene as far as  staffords are involved.

The owner may well have not noticed/known the bitch was lame.  She may have gone straight from Car to a crate to her bench, and then straight in the ring.

I certainly would have noticed one of mine limping through the lead, but not everyone can see it when they are candling themselves. 

Would be interested to see if there are any other videos of the same dog at other shows?  I hope it was just a one off. I have to say I cannot always tell how well my dogs are moving, though to be truthful one of my girls is such a nutter I know that she's jumping all over the place most of the time, although she can move wonderfully :)

I would firmly hope that everyone would take their dog for a leg stretch and chance to relieve itself before going in the ring. In which case they would have noticed she was lame !
If not then it dosnt improve my current opinion

A dog may not ge noticeably lame when walking or ambling, where at a trot whre only two legs support at a time it will be obvious.

Surely you know your dog and when moving it in the ring you'd feel
If something wasn't right? Also what about other exhibitors?
I know when mine don't feel right and when this is the case I ask others. I have flagged up lame dogs with their owners in the past too, they are in pain if running lame so I hate to see this continue...

Seeing that she'll more than likely have been in the last class for the breed, she definitely should have had plenty of time to walk!

I would firmly hope that everyone would take their dog for a leg stretch and chance to relieve itself before going in the ring.

You do know that at Crufts that involves just pushing past the public to get to the nearest area of sawdust, not going outside? No way you can see movement then.

Seeing that she'll more than likely have been in the last class for the breed, she definitely should have had plenty of time to walk!

Where, exactly?!

> Surely you know your dog and when moving it in the ring you'd feel
> If something wasn't right? Also what about other exhibitors?

even if by some freak chance the owner hadn't picked up that her dog was lame in the breed judging, surely the poor reaction to her winning BOB should have given her an idea that something was wrong.  Did not one of the disappointed spectators happen to mention the dogs lameness. Did the owner not have one friend there that day who could have mentioned it?
I find it very hard to believe  that this owner could have got through a breed class, judging for best bitch and then judging for best of breed without someone spotting the bitches lameness and telling the owner. it was so obvious on the videos i cannot believe that  no-one who was actually there could see it. It seems to me that the owner valued her appearance in the big ring far more than her dogs health and wellbeing

> I would firmly hope that everyone would take their dog for a leg stretch and chance to relieve itself before going in the ring.
>
> You do know that at Crufts that involves just pushing past the public to get to the nearest area of sawdust, not going outside? No way you can see movement then.

it is quite possible to take dogs outside at Crufts. there are a couple of places where you can leave the hall with a pass to let your dog relieve itself. and anyway it is a common there for people to trot their dog up and down in any space to check the dog is moving correctly before going in the ring. I really can't see there is any excuse for the owner not noticing the lameness.

I can't see there bring any excuse either, I see and I have done it before too run the dog up and down in the benching areas. Any slight dip from either of my dogs, walking or otherwise I feel it down the lead...
However maybe they were told, maybe they did know. I recall telling one exhibitor in my class that their dog was very lame and it really was, they knew it and said it injured itself and the judge went on to give them a 3rd in a Crufts qualifying class.

What hall were they in? - we had plenty of space to get in and out with our boys?  and I always find time to move my dogs stretch their legs before AND after going in the ring - as well as ensuring they get a good rest.  If they were lame before going in the ring I would not take them in!  I also can 'feel' if my dog isn't moving right. 

I will say I have known dogs freakishly go lame in the ring and be fine before and after - but this is not an excuse for the judge to miss the poor movement in the ring and awarding poor movement.

I've never been able to get a dog out and back in again unless I've had a DD pass. Might depend on halls and rings but when we tried to move our dogs, we had absolutely no chance whatsoever. We tried, because one of mine has a tendency to pace and we have learnt how to move her to stop it, but with something as important as Crufts, we wanted to make sure she moved okay before she went in the ring, BECAUSE you can't tell when handling if she moves okay or not. I'm forever outside the ring doing either thumbs up or thumbs down to hubby so he knows if he needs to stop and move again or not. Maybe if they'd been hamster sized we could have found a space to move in. :) Also it took me forever (about 20 mins) to get to the nearest sawdust area one of the days as we kept having to stop with all the public being in the way. So yes, I can see it being perfectly possible to go in the ring and NOT know if your dog is lame. Done it myself in the past, as has my husband.  Maybe it's a knack you have to have. I do however think it odd if none of the spectators (and there were a lot judging by the video) pointed it out. I can guarantee in my breed SOMEBODY would have come up to mention it.

Oh and don't forget, we had terrible weather with rain and mud and people may not have WANTED to take a dog that hadn't yet been in the ring, outside to potentially get really dirty.

There are now manned exits where you can take your dog outside for exercise and return again, just showing your exhibitor's pass. I've done it myself.

> Where, exactly?!

especially round the ring of such a popular breed, I know how hard it can be to push through the spectators in our hall which is hall five, furthest away and least crowded.  Often the GP tsk at you for having a dog underfoot!!

As for other exhibitors they would be busy with their own dogs, and of course are competing against the person, so may not be unbiased.

As a breed they aren't exactly the most long striding flowing moving breed anyway, so yes I think you could as a handler miss it, but the judge no.

> There are now manned exits where you can take your dog outside for exercise and return again,

but often these are not close to your benches.  Now the exhibitor may have had more than one exhibit there, and of all shows it is the one where you don't want to leave your dogs unattended, and trying to brave the crowds can mean missed classes.

I know I didn't chance it and never got the loo myself all day until we were leaving, and on the way in, in the morning.  A sawdust area was just behind our benching fortunately, and as I said we don't have a hugely popular breed.

I think we are obviously very lucky in our hall (1) - we had several exits near our benches and just had to show either removal pass or bench number. I will admit that we didn't go outside until after going into the ring. Having a feathered breed I do understand the 'keeping dry and clean' - my dogs don't have an all in one suit - we had to use towels to try and dry off just having walked from the car parks.  We also had a sawdust area nearby and having males - point to a wooden post and job done :)   I'm guessing not many of the GP bothered to head down to our benches past the trade stands!?  hence I guess the ability to run up and down check they are moving ok around the benching area/near the exits.  Don't get me wrong we did get the GP but guess unless they are interested in the breeds in hall 1 probably don't bother so not the hoards experienced in other halls?!

I do hope something is done as this was not unnoticeable -and am sure to the untrained eye even - the dog was clearly not sound!  Shameful judging :(

Yes it's unbelievable that the judge could get away with it -and it is all on video! Makes you wonder how much the KC watch their Crufts videos they put up on YouTube. I had to chuckle yesterday, I was watching the video of a dog I'd bred competing in the inter regional obedience, and when the banner came up on the screen with the dog and handler details, every single time it said the team was NORTHEN Ireland. Missing R! Now that is unprofessional, but at least it isn't about the well-being of a dog......

We're normally benched in the same hall as the Staffies and the area around the staffie rings and benching is usually packed with people.   You'd be hard pushed to walk through  even without a dog.     However, they usually do have an exercise area nearby, but many dogs won't walk properly in the 'exercise' area, if you saw mine, you'd swear they were walking on hot coals, or sulphuric acid :-)

I didn't go ths year, so not aware of where the staffs were, but I doubt there would be much chance of walking the dog indoors.

I have noticed that many exhibitors just don't take their dogs outside at crufts.   I have to or they will try to hold on, and then you can just guarantee they'll get desperate in the ring.

Surely even if you didn't notice your dog was lame when walking, you would when having to stack the dog as often she was arranged? Cramp, when one of ours suffered cramp came to a stand still on three legs with the effected leg stiff, extended & the spasm didn't pass for sometime.

I'm always in hall 5 and its easy peasy to get outside, yes battling members of the public but no great shakes to get fresh air and give a dog a bit more room. One of mine won't even step foot onto the sawdust so have to go outside. We also do find room easily through the benches as most are ringside!

I thank my lucky stars that we are in hall five and suspect those in hall 1 are the same, but halls 2, 3, 4 are a claustrophobic's nightmare.  Also the ringsides of very poplar breeds.

I looked at the clip just yesterday and in fact the dog was shaking at one point with what I would guess to be pain as she was holding herself so stiff and tightly, also it looked to me like she sat down after moving which I would have thought unusual in a show dog as they are generally encouraged to stand.  I can understand if the owner missed the lameness but surely they would not have missed the obvious tension and shaking!

Where can you find the breed clips?

I looked at the youtube link someone posted on the first page

From the moment I saw the original clip I felt the bitch had a tucked up, tight, painful look about her, her back looked very tense and sore to me.
I would have noticed this on my own dog.