> >Looking at the photos of previous winners the 2004 winner looks like it might be Ashley with her dog Buffy.

>Similar looking aren't they? But can't be the same one, surely.

Buffy did win in 2004, and she's Pudsey's mother.

> Buffy did win in 2004, and she's Pudsey's mother.

So the story we were told about Ashleigh being given Pudsey as a surprise gift (which I was uncomfortable about) wasn't true?
If the organisers of Scruffts are aware of this then I think they will be on their guard... it's not what the contest is about.

And it was 9 years ago... the winners since then seem to be a lot more plebeian.
I'm pretty shocked though, if that really is Pudsey's dam.

I had an inkling it was the usual scenario that I know from my own kids. Kid wanting to keep a pup, being told no, then the parents giving the pup as a present. Turned out to be correct:
http://agilitynet.co.uk/features/pudseybear_ashleighbutler.html
Also: http://www.freewebs.com/ashpen/

It's not unusual for dogs doing very well in agility, flyball, obedience etc to be bred from even if not purebred -do we know there were no health testing involved?  No we don't. I'm in two minds as to whether I agree with it or not, but I guess to those seriously into competing with their dogs it's no different to any other form of working and what they breed for is working ability. (Even though it is working for FUN.) We know there have been breeders in the past of crossbreeds purely for working that have done all health testing, such as the Coltrievers.

The owner of the Papillon I have bred that is doing well in flyball has already been approached many times about using him at stud -and never to another Papillon. It's always to another small dog, it's always his ability they are after, nothing else. His owner however has never, ever been sorry to be able to reply that there is no chance as he is neutered -and even if he hadn't been, she'd not have agreed. What has shocked me about all the requests is that nobody has ever bothered to ask if he is eye and patella tested clear! I guess it's like with show breeders -good and bad both exist.

I thought Ashley's mom bred pugs?? Or did I imagine that.

As someone who is new to showing. And preveiously had no knowledge as to the jardwork people go to to breed and improve lines the many health tests needed and the costs I would say the general public are not going to know this and are not able to understand the difference in showing for scrufts  and crufts certainly entry fees should be the same and I like the neutering idea as I believe it will encourage breeding wrongly and increase interest in the designer dog . Crufts is considered by gp to be the top dog show for pedigree dogs and  working dogs not for the waggiest tail I feel it could devalue all the work people put in to get their dogs to crufts be it showing agility flyball etcI- would prefer the 2 kept separate. Leaving scrufts with discover dogs is much better

> Think they call it Crufts - yes it incorporates a dog show but as much if not more space is given over to retail and entertainment. It is much the same as the Ideal home exhibition it shows homes yes but they are not the main thing people go to look and buy.

No - that is Discover Dogs, not CRUFTS.  Scrufts should be part of DD not CRUFTS if you look at the history of Crufts and everything it stands for "the exhibition of pure bred / pedigree dogs" as a Championship Show.

Discover Dogs itself is a part of the whole Crufts 'experience'. Yes, it started life simply as a dog show, but has grown and developed over the decades. Now dogs no longer have to be present on all days, with owners paying extra if they wanted to remove the dogs from their benches overnight! Although we dog exhibitors like to think of it as primarily a dog show, we muct accept that has changed, and it's now supposed to be a showcase for all things canine; obedience, agility, flyball, dancing with dogs, canix, retail (dog food, accessories, clothing, kennels etc) and that includes non-pedigree dogs as well.

just tagging on at the end here. I do not see what all the fuss is about. I think Crufts is a celebration of dogs and not just a champ show. It is where the GP come to see the best of the dog world. and if that includes a few dogs of uncertain parentage then so what.  The people entering the Crossbreed classes may even decide they like showing their dog and get a pedigree one next. In these days of dwindling show entries and falling registrations we should be doing all we can to encourage people into the dog world not slamming the door on them because we don't think they are worthy. That is just likely to  convince the GP that they are right about the snobby show breeders.

As fpr the £2 entry fee. All the people entering the finals of the kennel clubs competition are paying that this year. the agility people and I believe the Obedience championships too. It used to be free for the finalists to compete at Crufts but they have just started charging people this year. Not sure why.

>

> I think Crufts is a celebration of dogs and not just a champ show.

In that case the KC needs to change the wording in the schedule for Crufts.  It is either a Champ show or not.  They have DD as a stand alone event in November for Scrufts and non pedigree classes.  It is not about being a snobby breeder but upholding the pedigree dog reputation and the history of our breeds, that is what Crufts originally started out as.  I have no objection at all to moving with the times and agility, obedience and other classes like the gamekeepers have their place at Crufts as they showcase the versatility of pedigree dogs as well as x-breeds, but "Scrufts" also has a place and it is not at a pedigree dog Ch show with the status of Crufts.  It is playing into the hands of the likes of the PDE and other anti pedigree breeders activists, and it makes a mockery of the history of the name of Crufts.

>In that case the KC needs to change the wording in the schedule for Crufts.  It is either a Champ show or not.

It is a Champ show. But that's not all it is. Discover Dogs was introduced first at Crufts and then that also expanded to another event in London - but it's primarily a part of the Crufts event. The world of dogs is becoming more inclusive; all dogs of all types stand to benefit by this.

> It is playing into the hands of the likes of the PDE and other anti pedigree breeders activists

I don't see how.  Although they will be judged on condition they are not competing against the pedigrees.
I think very few people will be attending just to see this small event but if they do they will have the opportunity to see so many pedigree dogs in equally good condition and if some breeds are not as they should be, well this event will do nothing to disguise that fact for sure but nor do I see it particularly bringing it into focus either.

the KC needs to change the wording in the schedule for Crufts

No, the schedule you are talking about is for a Championship Dog Show - the East of England Agricultural Show has a dog show with in it but he schedule says it is for a Championship Dog Show and the other animals have their own schedule.

A schedule for a section of an exhibition is just for the section named in this case the Championship Dog show as opposed to obedience or agility.

I'm quoting from the Crufts website below:

"Crufts is one of the largest dog events in the world. No longer purely a dog show, Crufts celebrates every aspect of the role that dogs play in our lives."

A Champ show forms part of it for sure, but I don't see how the existence of Scrufts can detract from that part of the event, any more or less than any other activity that goes on.

Surely 'Joe Public' are just as likely to be influenced into buying one of the beautiful pedigrees as they are to buy a cross breed because of Scrufts?

To be honest, I have been to Crufts from a spectators viewpoint for the past 4 years. I would be unlikely to go if it were a Champ show only...I like the broad appeal and celebration of dogs.
I also don't associate the day with thinking about poor breeding/cross vs pedigree etc. It's just a good fun day out with lots of dogs around. I think it's easy to read too much into what might be going through the minds of the average attendee...

Surely 'Joe Public' are just as likely to be influenced into buying one of the beautiful pedigrees as they are to buy a cross breed because of Scrufts?

And that would be no problem -the point is we don't want to encourage more deliberate breeding of designer crossbreeds where the purpose is nothing other than to make money. There are already so many people that think that "Labradoodles" and "Cockapoos" etc ARE pedigree dogs. (Well I guess they are, but I mean purebred dogs.) Remember the year when Peter Purves said on TV from Crufts that the KC was about to recognise the Labradoodle?!

>Remember the year when Peter Purves said on TV from Crufts that the KC was about to recognise the Labradoodle?!

It was Ben Fogle who said that, not Peter Purves ...

In fact by the public seeing that the designer crossbreeds aren't in the show rings or eligible for BiS gives the KC the perfect opportunity to set them right.

> It was Ben Fogle who said that, not Peter Purves ...
>

No, it was Peter and it was Bruce Fogle that claimed they were healthier.
Marianne, I can't see that this competition is about breeding Labradoodles or anything else designerish.

No it definitely was Peter Purves.
http://www.labradoodle.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64&start=0

I was mentioned in Our Dogs as well, but the OD website seems to be down at the moment! However this comes up when Googling, it's just that when clicking on the link it comes up with a blank page, as does clicking on anything to do with OD.
Our Dogs Newspaper - News, breeders, showdogs, dog breeds ...
www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2006/March2006/.../labradoodle.htm
Veteran Crufts anchorman Peter Purves also drew the ire of many Standard Poodle enthusiasts during the earlier item, when he suggested that Labradoodles ...

Here

> And that would be no problem -the point is we don't want to encourage more deliberate breeding of designer crossbreeds where the purpose is nothing other than to make money.

But if that is what having Scrufts there is encouraging surely by the same token having the pedigree dogs is encouraging people to breed those for money too. It works both ways. I have been at Crufts twice in the past with a crossbreed, Albeit doing obedience rather than Scrufts but it never crossed my mind to breed my girl for money or any other reason.

Surely  in these times of anti dog feeling all dog lovers need to band together against the anti dog brigade. Telling a huge section of the dog owning public that their dogs are not fit to be seen at the most prestigious dog show is not likely to endear them to pedigree breeders.

It is all about education. Lets get the crossbreed owners into Crufts and show them responsible breeding. Let them see that we are not the monsters that the PDE programe said we were.

But if that is what having Scrufts there is encouraging surely by the same token having the pedigree dogs is encouraging people to breed those for money too. It works both ways.

No I don't think it does work both ways, because the designer crossbreeds are only EVER bred for money. We're not talking about obedience, agility etc dogs, we're talking pure pet dogs. Lots of people breed pedigree dogs for money, equally lots of people do not. There is no such thing as a responsible breeder of designer crossbreeds, NOT doing it for money.

But  Scrufts is not about designer cross breeds. and still it is a chance to educate the people who come to see the mongrels about a better way to get a dog. I really cannot see that having half a dozen mongrels at a show will cause mass breeding of Oodle crosses.

I hope that you are right newyork, I really do......

The problem is the winner of BIS and the runners up always influence more sales of that breed, many did a silent sigh last year that the Borzoi did not win as we know unsuitable owners would be going out to get one.

Crufts really does influence, the winner of Scrufts shown at Crufts and also televised there will no doubt IMO and in the worries of many, encourage people to try and emulate the same dog and sell it for more than a KC recognised breed, no doubt pushing them as Crufts winners, many of us can rightly or wrongly just see the adverts all over the free websites...........

TV influences and it is never put across properly as the PDE programme showed, there is no reason not to believe at present that the Scrufts winner/s will also not influence a mass influx of similar crosses/mongrels at prices to make our eyes pop out and the general public will know no better thinking they still have a 'new breed' as no-one puts them right and we continue to hear these silly names for breeds that do not exist.

Someone needs to stand up for the public and now even Crufts are joining in and probably going to make it worse.

> The problem is the winner of BIS and the runners up always influence more sales of that breed, many did a silent sigh last year that the Borzoi did not win as we know unsuitable owners would be going out to get one. <img src="/images/eek.gif" alt="eek">
>
> Crufts really does influence

If the influence of Crufts is really that strong then why aren't we stopping it altogether because surely there will be more people influenced by the 20,000 pedigree dogs they see winning and want to start breeding them. In the scale of things there are far more bad breeders of pedigree dogs backyard breeders and puppymills, than there are Labradoodle breeders. but we don't want to stop showing pedigree dogs because we like that.

As you rightly pointed out the winner of BIS can seriously influence the dogs people buy and the breeders breed. However I am sure there will be many more people breeding and trying to buy which ever breed of dog wins BIS  than people looking to breed which ever cross wins Scrufts.

There will be far more coverage on TV of the pedigree dogs too. Are we seriously saying that the 10 minutes or so coverage that Scrufts is likely to get on TV will influence more bad breeders than the 5 or 6 hours of coverage of the pedigrees?

I have no issue with it being at crufts and think its a nice way of getting people back on board with the idea of dog  as so many seem to think it is the sport of the devil at the moment!

I know a few people who enjoyed showing their cross breeds so much that they got a pedigree so that they could attend more shows.

As for it making a mockery of entrances I don't agree as how many people did you have to beat in your class to qualify? 
Many peoples dogs will be qualified for life as the result of just one win (I appreciate its a very difficult win against top class dogs and years of work has gone into it). 

I know many people who have qualified by default (only 3 dogs in the class at the champ show - 1 of mine qualified this way, but won't be going) but some of you will have had to qualify out of classes of 30 possibly.

There are up to 200 dogs in some of the scrufts qualifying classes and no level playing field - all depends on what dog the judge fancies on the day, you receive no critique and I have no idea what training/ qualification the judges have.

I do feel they should have to pay extra and bench their dogs (compulsory) as well as pay a visitor fee if they are only paying £2 per class but I have no issue with them being at crufts. 

Companion dog shows seem to be more popular than ever and I think anything that gets people interested is good, their interest will lead to research and education hopefully......

Well said Susiebell

Are we seriously saying that the 10 minutes or so coverage that Scrufts is likely to get on TV will influence more bad breeders than the 5 or 6 hours of coverage of the pedigrees?

I take it you have not watched the Crufts TV coverage for the past 5 years or so. Long gone are the long parts of breed judging/breeds they used to show, instead it has been replaced with everything BUT breed judging. One year the obedience was left out altogether, but they still managed to squeeze in shopping and yes designer crossbreeds -and pointless photos of viewers' dogs. Last year there seemed to be more flyball than anything else, I was forever fast forwarding.