Thats the thing though Dill, I don't think it can be appreciated until it's spelt out (I don't mean that in a patronising way).

I know a few people who believe that the bitch just gets on with it (feeding etc) by herself,  and probably think that my past weeks have been an extreme example, but I don't agree because it doesn't work like that. A bitch doesn't care who is getting more milk than the other, who's latching and who's not, who's stronger and who's weaker, who's gaining and who's not. Even if she did care (and maybe she does), there's nothing she can do about it on her own. If you aren't with your litter constantly, you won't know who has fed and when. If you don't weigh them, you won't know who's feeding well and who isn't. You won't see if she's toileting them or know when to intervene. You won't detect potential problems early enough to do something about them. Also, how would you know you bitch was eating, drinking or even feeling well, if you just left them to it?

I didn't leave my bitches side for 5 days before the pups came, I watched her closely. For 24 hours before they arrived, her and I were alone in a room. Her - resting, me - reading this forum. She slept (and dug) inbetween myself and my husband all night long, she had her pups on my bed with hubby just waking up to the waters breaking next to him :)

I've been present at every single feed, I've had to be or Winny wouldn't get fed. But even if I didn't have this situation with my little pup, I would have done no different.

I think its a case of understanding that along with the actual pup itself, you are paying for the raising of a health tested, well fed, well tended to, socially adjusted pup - which in itself is worth its weight in gold!

yep agree pedlirroja plus some breeders have to take time off work and use their holidays up for doing this!! i could go on and on...but a price is/should reflect on how much love/work/time as gone into raiseing a litter....x

A local vet to me I believe will re-start vaccinations even if they have done the first vaccination but the dog has changed hands!!  I think this is disgusting and should not be allowed.  The pup is going back at the correct time to the same vets but they then want to restart them!

its all about money to some vets!! so sad!!

Bang on Pelirroja.

That's how I do things too :-)

I had one very well known breeder boast how she slept by the whelping box for 48 hours after the pups were born (rolling eyes)  my reply was try 9 weeks!  

The people who came to visit us and the dogs/pups were amazed at how clean everything was, how clean the pups were and sweet smelling and that they clearly were confident and healthy.  I've had vets comment on the condition of my pups and how confident they are - my reply is that this is what you get when you do it properly.  Makes you think when a vet is amazed at the pups!

I've also been in the vets when people come in with new pups and thinking how 'poor' the pups look, thin bone, lacklustre coats etc.

i also sleep with pups till they have gone apart from 1 litter i had to go to bed at 7weeks old they just wouldnt sleep when i was in the room with them lol only 4 pups and bloody massive they where!! they knew once it hit 3 inthe morning id get up and give them food lol just to get some rest ...even young pups catch onto that very quickly lol looking back thay gave me the run around thats for sure hanging off my curtains in the living room lol

>I've also been in the vets when people come in with new pups and thinking how 'poor' the pups look, thin bone, lacklustre coats etc.

Imagine a 9 week golden retriever that weighed 5.6kg .... :-(

In reply to several points raised when I said I would like a pup for £200.  The ones in Wales were around this price and if I lived nearer I would have gone and bought one as I think that is what they were worth.  I live in the south east, in a deprived area, with another deprived area 20 miles east and another 25 miles west of me, despite what the media try to portray of the wealthy south east.  Average wages are £12,000 to £14,000 unless you have moved from London and commuting.  The dogs for sale in nearby local areas are between £650 and £1000 regardless of what they are.  The reason I say £200 is because they are not properly bred.   They are left to fend for themselves in garden sheds and garages.  They are bred by people on low or no incomes to have a bit more money.  The council is not concerned as one breed is not considered a business.   I've been told to look at all rescue centres but all they have are staffs that are made to look like pit-bull dogs or ones brought over from Ireland.
I am looking for either an alsatian, collie or as advertised in Wales a collie cross shetland sheepdog.
As regards the vet topic.  There is not a single one in my local area that I would recommend.  One I would say try, another avoid at all costs who I would say out loud even if they tried to sue me for libel or slander.

By buying a badly bred cheap pup you are only encouraging the breeding of more. 

What needs to happen is that they cannot be sold, end up in rescue, so you can get them there, and you would do a good thing. 

The bad breeder will think again as they can't sell poor quality 'goods'.

If the consumer (Puppy Buyer) demands quality, then substandard product will not find a market, but they have to pay for it. 

Same argument as with Egg production, Chickens etc, except here you have another issue a third party getting the majority of the sale price, but due to public pressure welfare standards have improved in intensive agriculture, and the free range, organic, and ethical sectors has increased.

Puppies unlike food are a luxury, so you cannot blame hard pressed families buying cheap eggs or meat, but there is no excuse for supporting poor breeding practise, you just have to save up longer for decently bred puppy.

you really do need to make sure pups sire and dam have been hip sored ,sheps have hip proplems and the male needs to be heamo clear, this could!! save you alot of money in the future x

not to mention the several inherited eye issues in collies. 

"Puppies unlike food are a luxury, so you cannot blame hard pressed families buying cheap eggs or meat, but there is no excuse for supporting poor breeding practise, you just have to save up longer for decently bred puppy."  a wonder way to put it :) !! 100% AGREE ...we dont have a big amount of money we have saved to have this litter its cost me alot even before we mated herthe cost of all the whelping stuff ,shes only having 3 we want 1 ,we dont know what the cost could be if vet is needed ....i might brake even....

Fully agree with Brainless, do NOT pay money to people like that. The only way they will stop breeding is if they cannot make money. Go to a rescue.

I live in the south east, in a deprived area,

I don't understand your argument    I live in the second most deprived area in Wales and still would not skimp on breeding just to charge less.   It isn't a business, I don't expect to break even , certainly not make a profit.

We have never been 'comfortably off'  but I saved long and hard to be able to afford my first pedigree pup.  Then the saving went on so that we could show, then more saving to be able to afford to breed - it's what you do when something's important to you.. :-)

Regarding stopping people breeding by not buying their poorly bred pups,  our neighbours put their two 'staffys' together and had pups.  They were going to make loads of money - I should do it with my lot :eek   They had 9pups and crowed about the cash.   Both owners working full time, so bitch and pups left for at least 8 hours a day!     12 weeks later, 4 left and it's a week before Christmas, they are in a panic.  Staffy pups play hard and can be aggressive with each other at that age, especially unsupervised, so are likely to cause more vets bills.  The pups also had to be vaccinated, no-one would take them at that age.   Then all four disappeared, I've no idea where they went.

When they were talking about it, my OH said I should try to put them off, but they wouldn't have listened.  I knew that only being left with boisterous greedy pups would work.     There have been no more pups from that house - I call that a result   :-)

If you really want a German Shepherd pup, why not go to German Shepherd rescue?    My guess is that there would be plenty of youngsters looking for a forever home, and you wouldn't be feeding the bybs.

"I am looking for either an alsatian, collie or as advertised in Wales a collie cross shetland sheepdog."

You need to avoid the latter breeder. She always has pups available (all year round), usually at least two litters at the same time - she currently has at least 3 litters on the go, which is not at all unusual for her, and that's just collies, who knows what other litters she has as well because if you look at her website she mentions at least 4 different breeds. None of the collies have ever been health tested and she uses the same 2 stud dogs all the time, hers of course. If one of the litters isn't KC registered it is usually because that bitch has already had 4 litters but she just carries on breeding from them and doesn't register the pups. You will be hard pushed to find a collie with all the health tests done for £200. I charged £450 for mine in August 2011 (parents and litter fully health tested, home reared throughout, KC registered etc) and yet see pups regularly being sold with neither them nor their parents health tested for £500 and upwards.

> I charged £450 for mine in August 2011 (parents and litter fully health tested, home reared throughout, KC registered etc)

and I bet you lost money on the litter, or did you just prefer not to write down what they cost you, LOL ;)

If you read through this subject when I said non-breeds as well as ped-breeds cost between £650 and £1000 I was asked if I lived in Kensington and Chelsea.  I was replying as someone else on here thought it excessive.  GSD/Alsatian rescue do not have any new born puppies.  Local rescue centres never have any proper family dogs either.  I don't mean to upset anyone. 

£650-£700 for a gsd is the going rate for a health tested perents and line known pups?? but i do know of litters at £800-£1000 from parents that havnt had any health tests there just going on the pedigree :( you have to look around ...some are in it for money alone and ppl think well that pup must be better it costs more :( x

Lol Barbara. I never sat down and worked out what it cost me (I lived in Boston, Lincs and used a stud dog in Cardiff). Hearing and eye tests (done by different vet practises) meant a whole day on the road by myself with eight six week old collie puppies. My bitch has now been speyed so the health tests she had done in preparation for this litter won't be off-set against future litters and I didn't even get to keep a pup from the litter (my whole reason for breeding) because there wasn't one there that ticked all the boxes for me. Never mind! 

You had best not tally it up, it gets scary.

GSD/Alsatian rescue do not have any new born puppies

I'm not surprised, but they may have youngsters who have come in through no fault of their own ;-)    The bitch I saved so long and hard for was 12 weeks old, she had been run on for someone who then changed their mind.     I considered myself lucky  to be allowed to have her.  

If she'd been 6 months old, I'd still have taken her as she was just what I wanted, apart from being a bitch instead of the dog pup I was searching for, and show potential -" please would I take  her to a few shows just to see how she did," when I actually had no intention of showing originally - and also 6 months sooner than I'd planned for   :-)        But being realistic, I knew that the perfect puppy at the perfect time  doesn't exist,  she was what I was looking for in so many other ways none of that! mattered.

Why would you look for new born puppies in a breed rescue when you wouldn't be able to take one for many weeks anyway?