My lot are left for 4 hours at a time 2 days a week, and whenever I check in on the webcam they are fast asleep on the dog bed. They get walked in the morning before work, and I am out to dog training or in with them on the sofa in the evenings. They seem pretty content with their life to me. :-)

Jean, I didn't mean you exactly are a snob - it's the attitude (wherever I come across it, whether that's in my best friend or my worst enemy!) that people who work full time shouldn't have dogs, and that 'only' people who can be available almost always should have one.  That sense of dictating to others what is right and best - when it only puts some people off having dogs, when they might well be able to provide an excellent home for one - that attitude is what I experience as a snobbish 'only my way is best' thing.  If you read back, I said that snobbish 'attitude' - I didn't call you a snob...

I'm also not arguing about your exact circumstances - it sounds like you've made excellent provision for your dogs.  Unfortunately most people wouldn't be lucky enough to have someone living nearby who wants to come and hang out at their house every working day, and who they would trust alone in their house with their dogs all day.  And/or that person might charge more than they could pay - being effectively a full-time dog-sitter.  So, great as your solution is, it's not going to work out for most people who have to work full time.

Of course dogs left home should have access to somewhere they can toilet, if they're going to need to toilet in that time.  Perhaps, with small dogs, they need to toilet more frequently.  Mine toilet on their walks in the morning, and then they don't toilet again until dinner time at 6pm.  Even when I am home and available to let them out if they want to go out, they don't ask to go out before dinner.  And it takes a few minutes of sniffing around before they go, at 6pm, so they're obviously not bursting.  But of course if I was away longer, or if I had a dog needing to toilet more frequently, I'd need to make arrangements like a dog flap and/or an outside run etc - this is what many people do.  Or employ a dog walker to make a pet visit and toilet the dogs during the day.  There are many solutions.

Dogs do have needs which should be met on a daily basis.  They include the need for physical exercise, mental stimulation, companionship, food, water and toileting opportunities.  As long as these needs are met, each day, most dogs are perfectly content to sleep the remainder of the time.

Back when I first moved out of home, my OH and I wanted a dog. I have grown up with only gundogs but my family has greyhound experience so I was used to seeing them a lot, I just hadn't had one. Anywhom, as we both work, though staggered hours, we felt most breeds would not be suitable to that sort of life so that was cockers and labs out of the picture. We did a year's worth of research and went with greyhounds which has turned into the biggest, most wonderful love affair of my life. I have no issue with leaving my greys for a few hours 4 days a week and they don't mind either. When I am off work, they do literally just sleep all day. Want to get up at 9pm and play fetch like you used to do with your cocker? Don't ask your greyhound, he won't move! :)

Back when I first moved out of home, my OH and I wanted a dog. I have grown up with only gundogs but my family has greyhound experience so I was used to seeing them a lot, I just hadn't had one. Anywhom, as we both work, though staggered hours, we felt most breeds would not be suitable to that sort of life so that was cockers and labs out of the picture. We did a year's worth of research and went with greyhounds which has turned into the biggest, most wonderful love affair of my life. I have no issue with leaving my greys for a few hours 4 days a week and they don't mind either. When I am off work, they do literally just sleep all day. Want to get up at 9pm and play fetch like you used to do with your cocker? Don't ask your greyhound, he won't move! :)

> I don't think any breed of dog would be unable to be left, provided it was given enough mental and physical stimulation each day. 

I would not expect my breed to be a happy dog if left often.
Providing a dog with plenty of mental & physical stimulation will fullfill the needs of dogs that have mental & physical stimulation as a need, for dogs that NEED to be with thier people, you simply can not fullfill thier need for companionship by giving them brain work and runing thier legs off. Even when worn out, a dog that needs to be with it's people will still need to be with it's poeple. Of course, the odd day here and there will be no problem to such a dog, but to force a dog like that to spend over half of it's life alone, away from it's people is cruel.

You are quite happy to point out how a greyhound would potentially be problematic re prey-drive - and IMO rightly so, breed traits need to be taken notice of - so please don't overlook the fact that some breeds have a 'drive' to be with thier people.
My dog would not deem his life worth living if he was home alone for 3 or 4 days a week, every week. However, my last dog would have not minded atall, untill his final, elderly years (lab cross).

I love the Boston Terriers- very good with kids- they can be hyper dogs- will play fetch for hours and if introduced as a puppy
should get along with your cat just fine. I am biased had 4 boston's and now down to 2. They are eager to please but can be stubborn.
Just don't over work them so to speak on hot days- due to pushed in faces. They are very easy to keep clean. Can be a gassy breed lol

French bulldogs kinda like the boston terrier.

List of breeds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dog_breeds

"Of course, the odd day here and there will be no problem to such a dog, but to force a dog like that to spend over half of it's life alone, away from it's people is cruel."

Playing Devil's Advocate - the OP mentioned something like 4 days a week so it wouldn't be anything like that amount. I have one of the most demanding breeds, Border Collies, but I lived alone and worked full time yet had 3 collies who probably received more attention than some dogs with stay-at-home owners. The OP also mentioned being able to walk the dog 4 times a day. That is going above and beyond most dog's normal requirements, so she's obviously determined to spend time with the dog. As we have said before, it all depends on the owner, the breed, and that particular dogs' temperament. If you are dedicated enough, you can do it.

> "Of course, the odd day here and there will be no problem to such a dog, but to force a dog like that to spend over half of it's life alone, away from it's people is cruel."
>Playing Devil's Advocate - the OP mentioned something like 4 days a week so it wouldn't be anything like that amount.

4 days a week is a horrendous amount of time for a dog to be alone if it needs human companionship. It would be like giving a collie something to do for 3 days a week and leaving it shut in a crate for the other 4 days.

I disagree that there is such a thing as a dog which genetically 'needs' human companionship for 8 hrs a day (or more!).

I can't think of a breed more predisposed to separation anxiety and forming more of an attachment to people than the breeds I've owned, and they've all been fine with careful alone training. 

It's all about what the dog gets used to:  Of course, if it's used to you being at home for 8 hrs a day and suddenly you get a job and are leaving it all day, that's probably going to result in a dog which feels abandoned and lonely and depressed.

But if you've carefully introduced the dog to the idea of being left alone in a manageable way and you also are spending quality time with it when you are home, then I don't know of any breed which couldn't cope with being left - no matter how high energy, or how attached to people.

> I disagree that there is such a thing as a dog which genetically 'needs' human companionship for 8 hrs a day (or more!).
>

In general I agree.

Nice as it is to think the dog needs us for companionship, surely if a dog has companions of it's own species (assunming it has been properly socialised and not take from it's litter too young), it's own species is more natural to fulfill the pure 'social' need. 

It's one fo the reasons we generally advise against having two puppies as they will be mroe species focused and much of their emotional/social needs will be met by theri canien companion, makign tehm less itnerested in us, therefore less complint and trainable.

Of course what we provide is stimulation, training food etc.

You only need see the street dogs in various parts of the world to realise that dogs will seek out humans for those things they can provide such as food or shelter but their main choice of companions are usually their own kind.

>> I disagree that there is such a thing as a dog which genetically 'needs' human companionship for 8 hrs a day (or more!).
>In general I agree.

They don't necessarily need human company, but being a social species they do need company of some sort, and of course need to be kept where there's access to toilet facilities if they're to be unattended for more than a couple of hours.

Being kept indoors alone for 8 hours a day isn't acceptable.

Perhaps, with small dogs, they need to toilet more frequently.  Mine toilet on their walks in the morning, and then they don't toilet again until dinner time at 6pm.

I'd really worry about urinary infections there from stale urine sitting in the bladder for so long. It happens to people, it happens to cats, sure it can happen to dogs as well.

My toydogs go out every hour during the day and certainly would not last much longer. Sure they keep it in if you cage them, but that's no life -and when they move around, they need to go out.

You also can't pull all breeds across one comb. Leave a Malinois alone during the day and chances are you won't have a house to come back to! And if you have neighbours, they will be very unhappy at all the noise. They won't just sleep, they will look for things to do.

But of course if I was away longer, or if I had a dog needing to toilet more frequently, I'd need to make arrangements like a dog flap and/or an outside run etc - this is what many people do. 

Do that with a toybreed and you're practically asking for them to be stolen. Plus again you have the noise.

I completely understand the desire to have a dog but I do wonder if you've really thought about it from the dogs point of view.  Your house will often be an extremely lively busy place with young children, and their friends, and it will be particularly so during the morning rush for bathrooms, breakfast, missing school uniform and lunch boxes (been there, done that) then at 8.30am the house will be completely silent.  Ideally you'd want a gradual slow exit so that your dog is winding down and relaxing ready for a snooze, not worrying about you leaving.  There are also some logistics to consider in the morning, however much time you dedicate to your early morning dog walk the dog is not likely to be your priority first thing in the morning and it's a bit tricky to fit in the walk and your dogs breakfast unless you get up very early - you can't walk a dog within an hour or more of eating (I leave 1.5 hours), but if you walk before breakfast you're not giving any time for your dog to toilet before being left.

At lunchtime your dog will be really excited to see you and will need to go out straight away.  You'll need to walk whatever the weather but may not be able to do this in work clothes.  Changing your outfit (twice), drying the dog in wet weather and eating lunch all erode the time you have available to walk the dog and even then you'll need to make a fast exit back to work - probably before your dog is ready for another sleep.

These type of 'feast and famine' dogs, those who get a lot of attention when the family is at home then none at all for hours, can suffer from behavioural problems and be difficult for their owners to manage.  You could have issues with separation anxiety, destructive chewing, noise, or messing in the house.  Of course you may be lucky and have none of these problems BUT that will require a lot of hard work and effort on your part AND, more importantly, will require exactly the right dog - not an easy one to call as you're probably talking about character and personality as well as breed traits.  Some of us may have dogs that could cope in this situation but they are probably our older dogs and those for whom sleeping is more of a priority than it used to be!

In your situation I wouldn't be looking for a puppy - I've been in your situation and I genuinely thought we could cope but I didn't realise how negative an experience it was going to be for the dog.  In the end it wasn't about me and the time I could dedicate to him and I had to think long and hard about his welfare.  We rehomed him with his breeder and it was the hardest thing I've yet had to do, although I know it was the kindest.  Heartbreaking and I still feel guilty, not for rehoming him, but for making the mistake in the first place - we also didn't have the best breeder and I wish she hadn't allowed us to take him, but he was the last one, mismarked etc ...  Several years later when I was at home full time we got a rescue dog - a different type of boy completely and one who likes a bit of his own space but even then he's one who could only manage being home alone for 2 or 3 hours on a daily basis, 4 hours occasionally, but not full time working hours.  The problem of course is that it takes a bit of time to learn what sort of dog you have, it isn't all down to training, and some dogs are ok on their own and some really aren't.  You might find an older being rehomed privately that would fit into your schedule though, if the current owners are honest with you about the dogs needs and experience.

The need for a dog can be like the urge to have children, and difficult to ignore, but it's not always in the dogs best interest.  Could you talk to your local dogs home about weekend boarding?  Someone I used to know would take the oldies out of kennels every weekend to maintain their house skills and to give them a comfort break from the home, also there are plenty of homes that would welcome regular walkers, or visits, if you and your family have the time.  Good luck with your decision making :)

> They don't necessarily need human company, but being a social species they do need company of some sort

I do think that some breeds need a lot of human companionship to remain as a managable 'pet', they may not 'need' that companionship to fulfill a need as such, but I dread to think what Busters behaviour would be like if he didn't have a lot of daily human contact, I'd imagine that at first he'd become withdrawn and after that, once used to it, would become very 'independant' and hard to control.

It was about 18 months ago when a woman was killed by a mastiff type dog. The dog had been shut away, with other dogs for company, but without human interaction. Socialisation is an on-going thing with some breeds and includes being with people alot.

Well thought out and sensible post dogs a babe.

With a small dog one can litter train it- no worries then and its able to do his/her duties.

I work all day- so does my hubby. Thankfully hubby is able to brake away from work to let Moose out when
she was lil and we have our son here which was nice. The days now for the dogs are really broken up- with the boy coming and going
and hubby not to far away. So they are not shut in all day. Cost money to have dogs and need to work- wish I could stay home
all day with them :-)

In the beginning when my children were small there was no one at home- my boston terriers did fine being left alone
all day. I worked at 7am and hubby at 9 am- I was home by around 3 pm- guess they were left for about 6 1/2 hrs.
We both have different jobs now and hubby is maybe 5 min from work.

After work we grab all dogs walk about 6-9 km a day- now that its cool the boston's can actually walk that far- plus we
have worked them up to that all summer. Nice to see them enjoying it and have the energy they use to have. Funny what
a change in diet and regular walks can do- they didn't get out much during the winter. Very impressed at 12 & 13 yrs old.
This winter when its to cold to take them out I'm gonna pop them on the treadmill just to keep their cardio up and in shape.
Mondays no one goes for a walk have to much to do before we head out to dog class- busy busy busy- don't think I sit down till
8 pm after all is done just to go to bed at 9pm and start all over again at 4:30am

I think that one of the reasons dogs have become man's best friend is because of their adaptability - to different circumstances and to different arrangements.  Of course their adaptability has limits and can be abused, but dogs can actually thrive in far more circumstances than a someone-available-all-day situation.  (Or even - every 2 hours situation.)

I also disagree that dogs are fine with only dog company and don't need humans:  John Bradshaw quotes interesting research in 'On Defence of Dogs' which disproves this:  Eight 7-9yr old crossbreeds lived in kennels as littermate-pairs all their lives.  They were fully socialised to people but looked after by only one human carer.  The pairs of dogs had not been apart for even a minute in the past two years and had scarcely been separated in their lifetimes.  Despite this, when one of each pair was taken away for 4 hours, the remaining dog's behaviour did not alter.  The level of cortisol (stress hormone) in their blood did not change.  They were not stressed by the absence of their sibling. 

When they were taken to a new kennel, they were stressed and cortisol went up 50%.  Yet this proved the case whether they were with their littermate or not - the attachment between canine siblings provided no support and no emotional regulation to reduce stress.

However, crucially, if the human carer sat with the dog in the new kennel, the proximity of the human carer alleviated the dog's stress completely.  If the carer were there, the cortisol levels remained almost normal.  That is:  The presence of a human caregiver was better able to reduce stress than another dog could - even when that dog was a sibling and even when the two dogs had scarcely been separated and saw their human caregiver much less frequently.  (Tuber et al 1996)

We also know - again from John Bradshaw's book - that dogs play tuggy differently when they play with other dogs and when they play with humans:  Tuggy play with another dog is usually competitive and about who 'wins' the tuggy.  When playing with a human, the pleasure is in the game itself and dogs actually don't care who wins and will try to give the tuggy back to the human to continue playing - the pleasure is in the game itself.  (Rooney et al 2000).

Which is all to say:  Dogs and humans are not interchangeable, in a dog's eyes.  Dogs put humans in a very special category and they have a requirement for a human attachment figure and emotional needs which can only be met by that human, not by another dog. 

Yes, puppies can often be each other's best playmates if raised together.  But we know from human developmental research that a playmate is not the same as an attachment figure.  Children often have one person they love to play with, but run for comfort to another person.  (Of course these can also be the same person.)  Just because puppies can love to play with each other and choose each other as the best playmates, does not mean that they have no need of a human attachment figure... 

Despite all this, humans don't need to be there 24/7 for dogs....

> The presence of a human caregiver was better able to reduce stress than another dog could - even when that dog was a sibling and even when the two dogs had scarcely been separated

Could this not be due also to the fact that both dogs would be stressed so of course not able to offer emotional support, both being in a new/stressful to them situation.

Now if one of the litter-mates had been accustomed to the new setting, and then was joined by the one who wasn't perhaps the results would have been different.

In practise of course our multiple dogs will be in familiar situations or with us.

It doesn't seem that the pairs of kennelled litter-mates were suffering SA and in the past, and probably still people who kept large kennels kept their dogs kennelled with canine company quite happily, only interacting with them for training, work etc, in fact what many working dogs do.

Some working dogs work-life is day to day, some primarily seasonal.  Pack hounds also primarily have canine companionship.

I think we agree that dogs need our companionship but it does not need to be constant.

"4 days a week is a horrendous amount of time for a dog to be alone if it needs human companionship. It would be like giving a collie something to do for 3 days a week and leaving it shut in a crate for the other 4 days."

I really don't think you can compare being alone for four hours to being shut in a crate for 4 days a week. No one is saying that the dog will be left alone all day. The OP will return at lunch-time to walk the dog hence he/she would be alone for, say, 4 hours? If the dog is walked in the morning before they leave they will probably be glad of the peace and quiet and snooze for most of the time. Same as after being walked at lunch-time, they will settle down again for the afternoon and then be walked again on the OP's return (as well as having an additional 2 walks during the day). I have had a dog flap for 12 years now and wouldn't be without it but then having 9 collies and making the place as secure as possible, any potential dog thief would have to be very determined to nab of mine (btw amazed to read that the Paps need the opportunity to toilet every hour. Did I misinterpret that?). Someone mentioned the noise - yes they will bark outside if they hear something but not needlessly and I think the neighbours like the idea that they would let us know if someone were around. We're detached but always try to keep noise levels to a minimum, out of consideration for others.

> Someone mentioned the noise - yes they will bark outside if they hear something but not needlessly and I think the neighbours like the idea that they would let us know if someone were around. We're detached but always try to keep noise levels to a minimum, out of consideration for others.

Now there is no way I could let mien have access to outside without them barking.  3 bed end of suburban terrace.

As it is if we are out dogs need to be confined to kitchen with Radio on, as if left free access to living room would bark at the windows, as we have a bus stop outside and people passing the house frequently.

> Now there is no way I could let mien have access to outside without them barking

Ditto.  I live in a very quiet village but one of mine will bark at a sparrow fart 3 miles away, and the others join in - just in case they are needed for back up!  As they are so regularly called in if they bark my noise box nowadays just barks for as long as he can before running to the back door - when I open it I get a look that says "yes yes I know I'm not supposed to woof but I have sent myself back inside like a good boy" !!  Little toad...

> As they are so regularly called in if they bark my noise box nowadays just barks for as long as he can before running to the back door - when I open it I get a look that says "yes yes I know I'm not supposed to woof but I have sent myself back inside like a good boy" !!  Little toad...

That is exactly like mine, Inka (4), followed by Safi (19 months) are the worst, the others rarely bark at nothing (other dogs barking up the road, cats, pigeons etc)

> Now there is no way I could let mine have access to outside without them barking

My dogs have 24hr access to the back garden via a dog door, I live on a corner and my back garden is overlooked by houses on all sides, the neighbours say they have never heard them bark. I did have someone complain once about the pup running round the garden playing with a squeaky toy at 11pm so now all noisy toys are confiscated before I leave for work in the evening.

Mine have access during the day, I close the dog door at night just in case anyone wants to go and bark at 3am! We do now have a very annoying dog in the garden which backs onto ours, it barks at the slightest noise from mine or from anything else that it hears from miles off, drives us mad! Luckily mine very rarely bark back, and I've asked our next door neighbours to let us know if they bark during the day while we are out, and they say that they are always quiet. :-)

> the neighbours say they have never heard them bark.

but you can't guarantee you will get a quiet dog.

>I think we agree that dogs need our companionship but it does not need to be constant.

Totally agree.

But some people's idea of minimum-required amount of contact for a happy dog is more than other people's...  I actually think what the OP was suggesting sounded quite generous in terms of contact time with a dog on a daily basis, and many breeds of dog would be happy with that arrangement.  Often it is the people who come to forums like this and ask questions in advance of getting a dog, who tend to underestimate the sort of home they can provide and overestimate a dog's needs.  It is the people who ask no questions and go out and get a dog without thinking about it, who overestimate the care they can offer and underestimate the dog's needs.  So I think we have to be careful not to respond to everyone who comes to forums like this as if they are the latter type of owner, when in reality they are the former.

I don't think I'd want mine outdoors unsupervised.  They could get into fence-running, barking, digging holes and landscaping, eating plants and more.  And I'd worry about security - both of the house and of someone nicking a dog.  If I did need to let them have access during the day, I'd have to have some sort of flap into an outdoor run which was secure.  But I'd rather just pay a pet sitter £7 to come round and take them out.

As for urine sitting inside them leading to UTI infections, I've not owned a dog which has had a UTI infection outside puppyhood. 

> but you can't guarantee you will get a quiet dog.

Of course there are no guarantees but I have taken precautions :-)  2 of mine are collies and will bark if they're in the front garden and a dog walks past, so the back garden is completely enclosed, they can't see out to the pavement at all. They are discouraged from pups from barking at strange noises and most importantly for collies, they're tired (mentally and physically) when I leave them. This seems to work.

Of course breed traits play a big part too, most sighthounds rarely bark. I could probably count on one hand the times I heard the borzois bark and the silkens seem similarly quiet. I would never own something like a samoyed or similar breed known for it's yappiness because it would drive me crazy.

>but you can't guarantee you will get a quiet dog.

No of course not, but because mine mostly are I am able to leave them with access to the back garden. If the neighbours reported they were noisy I would have to rethink that. :-)

> I'd have to have some sort of flap into an outdoor run which was secure.

That's basically what I have, but the run is the entire back garden. It's completely enclosed and dog safe. Slabs and artificial grass, the only plants are in water butts so too high to eat or dig in. The gate is padlocked and you can't get to the padlock from the front. The dogs are safe from escape and theft and are free to go out whenever they wish.