>exessive drinking after a fit is common

Ditto to that.  My girl drinks like the blazes after an occurrence.  She started fitting at 5 years, and I hope to have her for many more years yet.

That does seem to be the same pattern with Spud, he's not asleep when it happens but awake resting.

What have others done regarding exercise ?

He's never had a fit yet out on a walk but I'm playing safe and not staying out with him for as long and staying close to home just in case, at least until I know he's stable.

>he's not asleep when it happens but awake resting

Yes, exactly that.  She will just be lying on her duvet at rest when it happens.  The vet found that the usual state of affairs. 

I am only taking her for a short walk round the block, as I would want to be quite close to home if anything happened.  To be fair, for a small  breed, it isn't too bad, as I do have a huge garden.  Not sure what I would do if it was one of the Collies. 

The funny thing is, my Border Collie can run like the wind, and she will run round the garden chasing him, and barking encouragement, absolutely loving it.  She always did this prior to her having any seizures.  She enjoys it just as much now that she is a roly poly pudding, and I have stopped worrying about her racing after him now.  I am sure that, if she shouldn't be running that fast, something would have happened by now.

She even wags her tail when she sees me coming with her tablet twice a day.  I buy the cheese triangles - lowest fat content that they do.  I use just enough to cover her pill, and stick it to the roof of her mouth, so she has to suck it down.  It seems to have worked, as she doesn't spit it out any more.  We were given the liquid at the beginning, but I asked if we could change, as she started running away as soon as she saw me with a syringe.  It's fine if it's only for a short while, but as she will be on these for life, I prefer to do the least stressful thing for her.

If Spud does as well - you will be more than happy, honestly.

I do hope so Jean, Spuds very special ( they all are but I'm not ashamed to say, he's my favourite ) and he doesn't behave like an old dog at all, which would make it doubly hard to lose him.

Jean, I've found that tubes of Primula squeezy cheese are good for this as well, and not so messy as the triangles. I put some on the tablet, and a dollop on a finger, my lot are so keen to get to licking the finger dollop, they swallow the tab without doing the usual swirl it around the chops to remove the cheese, then spit the tab out of the side.

Poor Spuddy was really away with the goalie last night, I was a bit worried for a minute then remembered he would get a bit spaced at first on the med's. He was out cold on the sofa but his eyes were open, he did react when I touched him, but it was quite unsettling.

Do you have to have Spud blood tested after a couple of weeks, to get the dose right?

Yes, he's to go back in 2 weeks to see if the levels in his blood are right, he's on 2 x 60mg a day, he's 24 Kl 

It may well take a while to get the dose spot on, and that may very well be the reason he is so zonked out.  Initially my bitch was started on too low a dose.  I was away on holiday with her for a week when I got a phone call from my vet asking me to double her dose right away.  He even offered to post me meds if I hadn't enough down at the caravan.  After her next bloods she went up again and eventually went on to a larger tablet (can't remember how many mg, will look when I go downstairs.)

She has 3/4 tablet twice a day.  And she is now down to having 6 monthly blood checks.  Unless, of course, I had a problem again with her seizures.  I am so glad we went for medication.  There is nothing so harrowing as watching a really long seizure and feeling so helpless and useless. 

>remembered he would get a bit spaced at first on the med's.

One of the vets that I work with uses the term "euphoric" to explain it.

>tubes of Primula squeezy cheese

Mmmm!  very tasty!  :-)   Unfortunately this cheese couldn't be an option for this particula girl!

He seems fine most of the time, he's his normal self out on a walk, he just seems to sleep very deeply, he hasn't started being wobbly yet, did your wee pud get wobbly ?

She didn't get wobbly but was started off rather low dose wise.  The only thing that wobbles is her bum when she sees me!  :-)

Come to think of it, it must be genetic!  :-)   It's certainly in the family.  Except mine wobbles more.  :-)

with my boy I was worried at first about exercise, excitement , etc causing him or worrying just in case he come to have   a fit but then realised if I didnt let him do the things he enjoyed and loved to do what was the point... as to me his quality of life was of utmost importance... we continued as normal once the meds seemed to make him stable then let him enjoy his life... short or long ...we were very lucky.. I know.

I wouldn't use the word 'euphoric' to describe how my boy looks on his meds - absolutely shattered and zonked out more like. He is like a dog who is trapped in his own body. He has never tolerated the meds well and, after 18 mths, that is not likely to change now. I was warned by other Obedience people that Phenobarb (Epiphen) can turn them into zombies and that has unfortunately been my experience with Tag. I know other dogs are different and perhaps that also depends on the severity of their fits and the dosage/combination of drugs they are on.

>I wouldn't use the word 'euphoric' to describe how my boy looks on his meds

The vet I spoke to wasn't saying that a dog would look euphoric.  I think you took this out of context. 

My bitches seizures ended up too frightening to ignore.  I am euphoric myself with the results.  She doesn't in any way look zonked, so I guess my vet has the dose spot on for her.  As I said, she races with my Collies, so definitely not a zombie.  :-)

Is Tag blood tested regularly to check his levels?

That's a good point Starryeyes, what indeed is the point if I don't let him do the stuff he loves.

Has anyone heard of putting an ice pack on a fitting dogs back ? I came across it on two separate sites and would have thought it was the worse thing you could have done. It supposedly brings them out of it quicker.

'One of the vets that I work with uses the term "euphoric" to explain it.' So what does that mean then. Can you explain it to me? Yes, Tag is regularly blodd tested (in fact prob more than most because when he has clusters they test again in addition to the regular blood tests). I have not found the ice packs make a difference to Tag.

>Has anyone heard of putting an ice pack

I have to say that I haven't.  I'm not really sure that I would try without asking my vet.  My one concern has always been that my girl would have an attack that she didn't come out of.  Which was why I was given the tube of diazepam.  Now, I know that all things should be considered, age of dog, normal health and fitness (when not having seizures.)

When I asked about this, I was amazed that my (very experienced) vet had actually sedated a dog that wouldn't come out of a fit.  I would guess this would have been with approval from the owners.  I didn't ask for personal details, as he was talking about a client, and he wouldn't have wanted me to know specifics.  However, the dog was brought round after 3 days, and has been fine ever since.  On medication of course.

I actually have a vet whose own dog has fits.  So I am happy that he keeps on top of the latest research.

>So what does that mean then.

My own very experienced vet was not the vet that said this (just to be clear.)

I work with a dozen or so vets, and one who had heard me speaking about my girl joined in the conversation.  He didn't at any time say that a dog would look euphoric.  Which was your term when you said that your dog looks spaced out and like a zombie.

He said that the drug induces feelings of euphoria.  So, when you called it spaced out, the way the dog actually fees is not necessarily what you think.  Much as someone looks spaced out when smoking a spliff, but they actually feel euphoric.  :-)  :-)  :-)

I can't imagine how you cope with such a young dog that has had 60 fits in 18 months, I would be worried sick.  I am just so relieved that my girl is (fingers x'd) getting along nicely.  I didn't realise that Tag still had clusters, I thought you said he had been free of fits for 7 years.  My mistake.

During a seizure the dog over heats which can damage the brain, so keeping the dog as cool as possible is best, packet of frozen peas if you don't have a proper ice pack.

Thanks Rhona.  :-)

No, Jean, it is my eldest dog who has been fit-free for 7 years. I was very surprised to read that a dog could be knocked out for 3 days as our vet said, when Tag had his Boxing day clusters, that they could only do it for an hour and a half. Even then, the dog could still go back into fitting when they came round so they didn't seem to think it was much use trying it. I had always assumed that they could be out for a good while but they said the opposite.

That is quite strange as my friends white GSD went into status epilepticus (sp) and he was kept in, sedated and kept unconscious for three days.

Just a wee Spuddy update, this is his 5th day ( days not over yet though ) of having no fits, but i've kept him out the car. I know it's not long at all but hopefully a good sign, I guess the real test will come when I pluck up enough courage to take him in the car again.

>I had always assumed that they could be out for a good while but they said the opposite.

Yet my vet said up to a week.  Guess they all differ.

:-)  day 5 and counting  :-)

Spoke too soon :-(  he had a small one just half an hour ago, on the sofa. He's just come in from the garden and I was checking his ears as he'd been scratching them, when he started sniffing something ( this seems to be the first sign ) then he did the jaw champing but onlyfor a few seconds, and that was it, he's very sleepy now, which he hadn't been before but this is the first time he's had one in the house, so perhaps it's because he can relax.

I knew the chances were he'd have more before the med's kicked in, but upsetting none the less.

>but upsetting none the less

It always is.  {{{{  HUGS  }}}}

Another one this afternoon, again it was milder than previous ones, just a few seconds......bum :-(

Sorry to hear this. My BARF friend sent me her raw food diet sheet which Tag has been on since he came home from the vets and he hasn't had a fit since then (Dec 28th). Having this new diet to try was the only thing that stopped Tag put down on Boxing Day evening as I wanted to give him every last chance. xxxx

That's interesting marisa, Spuds on a raw diet anyway, would it be possible to get the diet from you via pm please ?

I knew he'd have more fits but I'm sitting on edge here waiting for the next one, I think Daisy is too.

I will pm you her email addy as it's her copyright so if anyone is interested I point them in her direction.

Thank you :-)

I have just emailed her to check that address, will get back to you as soon as I know it's ok/or not lol

Thanks again Marisa

Thankfully Spud's had a better day today, he's been quite sleepy due ( I think) to the 10mg Diazapam tablet he had late last night and the Epiphen this morning, but he's really perked up now and has had a bit of a rarr rarr session with his toys.

Another fit at noon today, my friend Lucinda popped in unexpectedly ( she felt she needed to come give me a cuddle lol ) now Spud ADORES his aunty Lucinda and i think it was enough to set him off, still just jaw champing and bright as a button after.

Interestingly when i was in at my consultant this afternoon ( had to get aunty Janette in to Spuddy sit ) he asked how I was and I mentioned losing Ben and now potentially Spud, he said that in a person he wouldn't consider what Spud is having to be a true fit and along with the absence of any other behavioural symptoms and, that he bounces out of them, thought it possible he had a benign tumour if one at all.
Which is all very heartening, but he doesn't know that, statistically, I'm  the unluckiest person on the planet.

Like your consultant says, might not be true epilepsy if he's 'only' jaw champing. Does he ever lose consciousness, paddle like mad with his back end and wet/poo himself? My oldest collie also bounced out of fits - like a party boy! - but it was defo epilepsy (confirmed at Newmarket after 2.5k's worth of tests) and he was out of it and wet himself. Of his 28 fits, 99% of his fits were during exercise - and he spent the day with a heart specialist near Guildford - but they couldn't find anything.

He doesn't paddle at all and i'm not really sure if he blacks out as it's so quick there's no time to see. Typically he'l start to sniff the air, then his head goes down and he'll champ a few times, turn in a tight circle and then sink down a bit dazed at that point he is aware but pretty spaced out, the majority of times he hasn't lost control of his bladder or bowels, he's only done that twice and it was a very small amount.

Marisa, my message to Andrea got bounced back I'm afraid, it's ok though, I'll just make use of the info you kindly sent.

My bitch has never, ever wet/poo herself during a seizure.  The only part of her that gets wet at all is her chest area from the spittle.

Has anyone heard of rosemary being a problem for causing seizures ? came across this link on another forum http://www.thedogpress.com/DogFood/Rosemary-Neurotoxin-10032_Liquorman.asp  interesting stuff.

another interesting article

Nutritional Management of Epilepsy
Ness Bird RVN Sept 2008
Arden Grange, Leander International Pet Foods Ltd

There is a possible connection between grain ingredients and seizures. This is because grains have a high phytate content which impairs mineral absorption. This is relevant as magnesium, zinc and calcium deficiency are linked to seizures. The chief grains to avoid are those with a high gluten content; ie wheat, oats and rye. Gluten stimulates opiod receptors in the brain making them more susceptible to seizures. All of the Arden Grange recipes are free from wheat, oats and rye.

Omega 3 fatty acids can help to maintain the structure and function of the cellular and sub-cellular membranes as well as support normal growth, especially of blood vessels and nerves. A fish body oil (as opposed to cod liver oil which is often too high in vitamin A) supplement may be a beneficial addition to an epileptic dog's diet (unless fed the Arden Grange Salmon or Sensitive as these contain 3 and 4 x the levels in the other recipes respectively). Evening Primrose (also called borage) oil must not be used however since this contains gamma linoleic acid which is thought to stimulate the production of a hormone-like compound called prostaglandin. Prostaglandin can lower a dog's epileptic seizure threshold meaning that a fit is more likely. There are many cases of this reported in epileptic humans taking EPO. Alpha linoleic acid, as found in linseed, also known as flax (present in the Arden Grange recipes) is fine however.

The Arden Grange Performance may be suitable for epileptic dogs since it contain a number of nutrients that are beneficial. A higher level of taurine is included and this plays a critical role in the function of the nervous system. Taurine deficiency is widely recognized as a cause of seizures in people, cats and dogs. In additional to its specific benefits to the brain, it also affects blood sugar levels (implicated in seizures) and assists in the body's proper use of minerals (especially magnesium, zinc and copper). Grape seed extract is also included and this has been recognised as one of the most powerful antioxidants. It contains natural free radical scavengers and boiflavenoid complexes that are rapidly absorbed and distributed throughout the body. It has also been shown to promote healthy cholesterol levels and a healthy cardio-vascular system. Plasma carnitine levels are decreased in many people with epilepsy and therefore L-Carnitine supplementation in dogs may be helpful too. This is also included in the Performance recipe.

Oh wow.  Thanks for posting that.  It makes very interesting reading.

If you can filter out the blatant Arden Grange promoting it makes for very interesting reading, as does the other link, especially as I use rosemary and thyme in my home made dog treats !! eek !

Spud has a vet appointment today to check his bloods, and now i'm worrying myself sick at the thought of taking him in the car again, but on the plus side, he's had 6 days fit free........touch wood.

Good luck & fingers & paws crossed.

Thinking of you and Spud.....

Thankfully we got there and back without incident :-), bloods taken, amazingly for once Spud wasn't a complete big girls blouse about having blood taken, he barely noticed !.

While I was waiting to be seen I was chatting to a lovely wee girl who was in with her Mum and guinea pig, she was very interested in Spud and was a pleasure to chat too, her Mum went into see Angus on her own, I got the feeling things weren't good when Angus came out with the guinea in it's box and went upstairs, wee girl was saying " oh she won't like going upstairs ", he came back down and Mum came out in floods of tears :-(  poor wee lass, she'll be so sad, she seemed to love her guinea, it was 6 mind, don't suppose they get much past that.

I've had them to 11 years, but they were my speciality to be honest.  (I even had vets ringing me for questions about them, back in the old days.)

Please let us know what the blood results show.