yes i have seen them do it myself they also come home from what ever events they have been to with pots of food and as they get out of their car instead of emptying it in the bin,,(right outside their doors of their flats) they empty it on the grass area,,, gross, i think the women below has already complained as last time it came out the window it went all over the womens window below where it was open, i know she was pretty pee'd off about it,

sorry but it really annoys me when people say their dog is fine off lead in ANY public area.....IMO all dogs should be on lead apart from designated  areas such as parks but then again things can go terribly wrong(Dog attack in chingford) one has to ask if you havent got a garden for free exercise then why have a rottie ????? 

i do have a garden one front one back but i like to take my dog out to our park and their is a dog area and i do use it , your point is??

well their is a dog area for now anyway but the way this man is letting his sweet sheep dog dig massive holes everywhere and shred the trees of their bark i can see the council taking it away leaving the decent owners like ME who appreciate what the council have supplied us with for our dogs no where to go,, i myself would no more allow my dogs to dig holes or shred trees in any outside space than i let them do it in my own garden,

use a lead till you get to the park ......i lived in south london for many years and had bull terriers , unfortunately some breeds command the wrong attention maybe people are not so intimidated by other breeds .....your dog sounds lovely and well trained but why give the dog haters or people who see certain breeds of dogs as a threat either through fear or ignorance why give them a stick to beat the breed with .....is it worth it in the long run

I apologise i thought you didnt have a garden and were just letting your dog run free on any area

as for the (Dog attack in chingford),, well maybe i should pass your comment on to the owner of the sweet little sheep dog that  this man is allowing to attacking the trees round here and savagely go around yacking at every dog it see's least i am taking precautions by muzzling my boy in case his dog should come and attack my boy while i am out in the designated dog area which is in front of the mans house, it would be more likely that his dog will one day attack a child if the way it was trying to hump my arm is anything to go by, i had to give him a  firm but gentle command to get down and the look in the dogs eyes was a little concerning to me but then i was a stranger to him he did seem ok in the end but i wouldnt trust him off a lead if he where mine,

why give the dog haters or people who see certain breeds of dogs as a threat either through fear or ignorance why give them a stick to beat the breed with

thats ok and oh yes i agree with you i have said before that when i spoke to the man he seemed very quick to remind me that i have the dangerous dogs yet he is the one walking round like a prat with this sweet thing acting like a dog to be fearful of,, yet see him when he is not acting that way you would think he a lovely dog i mean how dangerous are collies right!! the herd sheep have brains!! just shows me any dog can be dangerous and i feel this man is creating a monster

>If the other dog is off lead, then you have reason to involve the appropriate authorities, but you are just as bad if you continue!

Excuse me, but do you have some personal axe to grind here?

i could see his dog attacking a child really as the way it is allowed to do what it does is worrying and the man so layed back just says yeah its a dog they do that, telling me mine must swing from trees cos 2 are bull terriers , when thats crap cos none of mine have ever swung from a tree ever, nor would i let them even if they wanted to,

i must have missed that comment Jean lol, aint it funny how i come on here saying i am muzzling my boy because some drugged up nutter in my area has his stereotypical sweet collie dog off lead and it acts as nutty as its deranged owner and i get told i am just as bad! and here i was thinking i was being cautious and looking out for this poor dog in case his owner gets any stupid ideas after smoking his crack pipe!,  i  being all willing to jump in and drag a savaged dog off my poor boy who has done nothing but be a Rottie and a gentle giant leaving him muzzled so he cant hurt any dog that may attack him would mean i have would fight all the harder any dog that trys to hurt my boy,   think maybe some people should read the posts properly lol x 

use a lead till you get to the park ......

the park kind of starts 20 paces from my door Flomo,, then goes all around the flats surround it,

Sorry but at stalemate here .....Ive never owned a rottie but as ive said ive had bullies for over 30 years but just supposing for arguements sake his dog attacked yours and yours retaliated can you imagine the scenario and the headlines ...whose dogs would be blamed... not his !!!! part of the responsibility of owning dogs like ours is not putting them in situation where there could be trouble ....he sounds an idiot but how can you in all honesty reason with a man like that ....I would give him and his dog a wide berth and not give him any reason to criticise your dogs ..Take them somewhere else to exercise on leads and dont give him the satisfaction !!!

that doesnt sound like a park to me !!!!

> round here Brainless people dont give their bitch in season a second thought,

As an ex Londoner bred and born I can imagine, I definitely don't miss it, one of the last things that happened to me before I moved was getting mugged at 3.40pm on the way to pick up my daughter from the childminders after work.

He only manged to get my bag as the handle broke and I had the handle, I chased after and got most of the contents back where they were dumped other than cheque book and card.

I knew the guy was up to no good, but I couldn't cross the street as there was too much traffic.

This was 23 years ago.

> one has to ask if you havent got a garden for free exercise then why have a rotti

Do you think that if you have a garden you don't need to take a dog on a walk, or do you just think that rotties should not be allowed out of a garden?
I don't think I'm alone on this one, but my dog does not consider my garden as a place to excercise (to toilet in yes, to lounge around in yes, but to excercise - no!)- that's what a walk is for.

sorry flomo it is a park and their a dog bit fairly big to where i can lock the gate to let the dogs off safely , and what this post was actually about was the fact that i have started using a muzzle on my boy for this exact reason,, arguements sake his dog attacked yours and yours retaliated can you imagine the scenario and the headlines ...whose dogs would be blamed... not his !

to keep this mans dog safe more than my own just incase the man does set his dog onto mine, we have had this done to us before outside our house while my boy was on a lead  when a pittbull was set onto my boy and the owner was filming the fight with his laptop, believe me i have lived here 22 years and was born and breed just up the road i am very cautious i know the man is a dick head i dont blame his dog at all its him making the dog that way never the less i would be heart broken  if my boy retaliated and hurt or worse killed his dog! ,

which is why we went out the next day and bought my boy a muzzle, he seems happy enough to wear it also , would have distressed  me more had my boy been pawing it and really hated it but he seems fine with it on, thankfully, now i will only worry about about my boy getting hurt and not being able to protect himself, but i am preparing for that as some here suggested i will be taking a stick on my walks in future,

> here i was thinking i was being cautious and looking out for this poor dog in case his owner gets any stupid ideas after smoking his crack pipe!

chelzeagirl, I too would muzzle my dog in your situation, I don't think it's cruel atall, especially as it also stops him scoffing who-knows-what he can get his chops around. You want to save your rottie from any wrong blame and also want to save the collie form injury should it's behaviour (that the idiot of an owner is allowing to happen) causes your dog to defend itself from.

Whether your dog is leashed or not is not really the point here - your dog may not have a lead on, but it is under close control and behaving as it should do, the OTHER dog is out of control (or worse is deliberatley being made to act like that :( ).

I've actually considered getting a muzlle to stop Buster eating things. There is a point on our walk where a garden backs onto the field we walk in. The people there occasioanlly chuck food over thier fence into the field. Sometimes like today it's just veg peelings, but other times it's loafs of bread and chicken bones.
I keep vigilant there and Buster is leashed, but recently (in the dark) he suddenly stopped and only then did I see what he had stopped for - to scoff something he had found - I think it was a slice of bread, but it worried the hell out of me not knowing what it was (a year or so ago, locally 2 pups nearly died after eating something they found while walking that had been laced with poisen :( ) . I have been able to stop him eating chicken bones with a 'leave it', but never bread. A slice of bread was the first thing he stole from the kitchen counter, so I think it has an extra 'buzz' factor to it and I can't make him leave it :(

ohhh i hear you Brainless my 24 year old has been mugged 7 times around here last time was at 4pm on a summers day in the chicken shop on a busy main road,,

i fear for my 14 year old as now the youths are using knifes most all of the time,

on a brighter note i am happy and proud to say my 24 year old son has got a job a few weeks ago teaching ,, get this bit!!! only in my old secondary school loool,,,  corrr i couldnt wait to get outta that place and now their paying my sins a wage cant help roflmao,  looool

a year or so ago, locally 2 pups nearly died after eating something they found while walking that had been laced with poison

yes this is another fear of mine, my Bully boy Tai was very ill a little while ago and i blame something he scoffed luckily he was ok after a day or so, but my zoobie doo will scoff the chicken bones and always sicks them up,, my Bitch Ellie is just nicknamed the Hoover she has always been a nose to the floor girl but my Zoob was never really like this till the last few months or so think i was slacking in his training so he now takes the biscuit a little no pun intended lol,, i think Ellie leading him astray a little to lol,, my Ellie is terrible she walks round like the whole floor is her dinner plate,,
Tai's not to bad but like you say sometimes when its dark you dont see these things specially if its buried in longer grass, but most of the time he will leave when told if i see the food first, i have had to put my hand in his mouth a few times tho usually for the ends of french stick which  i fear he would swallow hole lol,

As for the muzzle i do feel its the right thing we dont generally bump into alot of people when out anyhow as we walk very early morning very late at night and even when i do a mid morning run its pretty quiet out their, we where saying tonight we may start making the night run a bit later anyhow as the days will be getting lighter soon so maybe walk at 1/2 am instead of between 9 / 10 maybe that would be better, the junkie may have crashed out by then lol, x

heehee despite all of the above i have perfect control lmao looool,,,

>A slice of bread was the first thing he stole from the kitchen counter, so I think it has an extra 'buzz' factor to it and I can't make him leave it :-(

LOL  I used to have a Toy Poodle who would wait to see what bread had been knocked off the bird table!  She would snaffle it down as if I didn't feed her.

its  funny how they have their little ways my Tai since he counter surfed the £18'00 worth of cooked roast beef he will stand at the kitchen door when ever i cook it now and wine,, then when i go to him " whats the matter with you" he answers me wooohwhooogrowwwl ohhh all while he jumps up to me then sits and holds his paw up loooool, i always give him a slice in the end but would never trust him in the kitchen alone with the beef,, mind you the cheeky chap has now learned to open the doors to the kitchen and frontroom time for round door handle i think ,lol,

ML, CG,

I've got strong views about the on lead principle for the reasons I gave earlier- primarily to lead by example (no pun intended).

It is really hard to persuade the average status-type owner that they need to comply when they see other members of the public having their well behaved dogs offlead when it suits them. Moreover, a lot of those dogs are also well behaved and dutifully walk to heel. However,sometimes it has gone wrong and another dog has been attacked. I think that generally it is easier to argue that a dog is under control if it is on a lead than off. Anyhow, that's my view.

I sympathise with the scavenging issue- who can blame the dogs? My dog looks at me with barely concealed contempt when I tell him to 'leave' that KFC bone he has snaffled- he clearly thinks I am mad to ignore such delicacies. If only these fast food outlets and the people who insist on strewing their leftovers around the public pavements, knew the potential damage they are doing to our dogs and our pockets.

freelancer, I do see your point and I agree with you - my dog even stays on a long-line so his freedom doesn't frighten anybody, lead AND halti for pavement walking, just in case, lead AND halti on should I see anybody approaching when we're in the field, just in case. But it's not just macho dogs that need to be on a lead ALL dogs should be on-lead unless in a safe area - even the fluffly 'nice' looking ones.

However, I am shocked at the reaction CG has got. The other dog is being allowed to bully her dog and vandalize the locality yet CG is getting an ear-bashing for having a well-behaved, well-mannered dog off lead - becasue it's a rottie. A rottie that CG has muzzled in order to protect the poorly behaved, out-of-control, off-lead, dog. Very unfair.

ML,

Absolutely, tiny fluffies too, no exceptions ALL dogs on lead- just safer and easier all round.

I sympathise with CG, of course I do, and know her to be a caring and good dog owner. But I still feel that there is an important principle here and if one makes exceptions, however deserving, then the argument cannot be upheld. The intention/hope is to somehow ensure that wretches like this man and his collie are also made to comply.

i didnt say that ....I said for free exercise ....I m an owner of bull terriers and to be honest the sight of bullterriers and a rottie offlead would be intimidating to say the least .....any body who knows the BT breed at all know that No bull terrier can be trusted around other dogs even if they do not start  trouble they may at the blink of an eye finish it and the effects can be disaster!!! The only place BTs should have free exercise is where there are no other dogs present .A walk should be on a lead !!!!!

It isnt the Rottie I have a problem with .............i have no experience with them i believe very strongly in Blame the deed not the breed , but as i said in my previous posts I do have experiences with bull terriers and no matter how well behaved my dogs are I cannot claim to know or forsee how other dogs will react and owners by the way ....Just as many of you cannot stop your dogs from scavaging whilst on walks BTs cannot be trusted with other dogs if they are attacked ....any body knowing the breed accepts that and always having them on a lead in a public place is a small price to pay for peace of mind .I said in earlier posts that her dog was well behaved ....

No offence but think some people would feel safer if all dogs were on lead in public places (on your way to the park/green area), I can imagine how scared they would be to see a Rottie or other large dog loose, even if he is walking near the handler. Also, as others have said, if your boy is attacked whilst on the lead by an off-lead dog, there is no doubt then who caused the trouble. It's putting your dog in the right. Muzzling him is a precaution but may also send off 'I am aggressive' signals which others can then misinterpret. JMO.

> The only place BTs should have free exercise is where there are no other dogs present .A walk should be on a lead !!!!!

Good point, but what you origionlly said was:

> one has to ask if you havent got a garden for free exercise then why have a rottie

The OP said the rottie is off-lead and the bully goes off-lead, safely,  in a fenced-in area.

> now both my Rottie and his dog where off
> i am in a grass area when my boy is off lead
> bully boys recall is not to be trusted, he's one i would never let loose unless in a totally enclosed space

yes....it may be fenced in but it isnt for the sole use of the original poster is it so anyone with another dog can use the area and instigate trouble ....

My point exactly marissa

So is Flomo saying that only people with a large enough garden to exercise their dog in, should own these breeds. I think that as long as sensible precautions are taken then they can be exercised in a safe area. Otherwise you are severely restricting the number of people who could own one.

> So is Flomo saying that only people with a large enough garden to exercise their dog in, should own these breeds.

It is perfectly possible to adequately exercise on lead, nowadays the majority of my dogs exercise is taken this way, mainly because with 5 together letting them off lead causes many people apprehension as so many have had issues with primarily bull breeds attacking their owners that they are nervous of any off lead dog, and it is quite a job to get all five back on lead each time you spot another walker.

Another reason is food waste and oen of my girls who knows how to get into teh bins in teh new houses that are not dog proof from the park.

Increased traffic also reduces safe off lead walking areas.

Obviously depending on the breed/age/health status/temperament (lol) I am a firm believer that dogs benefit greatly from running free. Mine (collies) would go bonkers if they couldn't and no amount of on-lead walking would ever compensate for this. How many of us use tennis balls/chuckits/frisbees etc to give them a good hard gallop and the feeling that they have had a day at the office - a lot of collies we foster have car chasing issues but give them a job to do and all that vanishes. I exercise all 10 of mine this way, have done for 11 years without any negative comments. I can't imagine a lot of the working/pastoral/gundog breeds would be happy purely walked on lead. BUT make sure you take them to a safe place to do it. Too many idiots with dogs off the lead playing road roulette with their pet. Utter madness.

My dogs large HPR's need free running, they are on lead till we get to a suitable place to be let off, but in order to keep them in " Fit hard condition " and allow them to follow their natural instincts they need time off lead.
All puppies in my opinion should be allowed time off lead to socialise under supervision, with non confrontational  dogs, the more different types, and sizes the better. The other dogs teach them acceptable behaviour and how to interact.
The vast majority of the problem dogs we saw at Training Club were dogs that had never been properly socialised, very often the owners had never allowed them to play with other dogs or were too scared to let the dog off.
It makes my blood boil when I see letters in the paper for all dogs to be kept on leads at all times, usually when their has been a recent dog attack. But keeping dogs on leads will only cause further problems, as their will be more dog related incidents not less.
I have often had people have a go about my dogs being off lead, as they have some nasty dog on it's hind legs dragging them to get to mine. My dogs are trained to the whistle come back immediately and do not fight, if they have a problem dog they should not be walking it where other dogs are off lead.
Dogs are not a problem, but lazy owners who do not put in any effort to socialise and train there dogs are, there are very few bad dogs, but an awful lot of very bad owners !!!

> as so many have had issues with primarily bull breeds attacking their owners

oops, apologies, that should have been attacking their owners dogs (due to the upsurge of badly bred and owned staffie, American  bulldogs, and bull breed crosses).  This seems to be a common issue in our cities.

i did not say that ....all i am saying is that any one should walk there dog on a lead to their place of exercise free running or not ......BTs should not  run amongst other dogs If there is no way that a large enough area that you can exercise where there are no other dogs present then they should be on a lead ....BTs are not problem dogs but need responsible owners who know the breed traits ....

> Dogs are not a problem, but lazy owners who do not put in any effort to socialise and train there dogs are, there are very few bad dogs, but an awful lot of very bad owners !!!

This is the problem and what has made it no longer a pleasure to take my dogs to the country park for daily off lead exercise.  Which was the norm for us with up to five at a time up to around 5 years ago, though there was a noticeable change in dog walkers fears over the last 10.

They have always been great with other dogs and people, their recall as with many hunting breeds was not lightening fast, but all bar one have been reasonably reliable, but as they had never had problems with dogs or people (young ones would have to be gently discouraged from wanting petting with everyone).

I agree that the social interaction older dogs teaching young what is acceptable etc is the ideal, it just seem to be fraught with angst these days.  20 years ago we could end up with up to 20 dogs and their owners happily enjoying walks and play, now everyone scurries to lead their dog and avoid other dog walkers :(  and if it takes more than seconds to round up your dogs you get abuse.

> I exercise all 10 of mine this way, have done for 11 years without any negative comments.

I think where you are makes a huge difference, the big cities have arguably more dogs per excersise areas, and more badly owned dogs of types that are generally not particularly good with their own kind.

True, tho' until 5 years ago I did live for 8 years on the outskirts of the largest housing estate in Europe and had no problems running the dogs in a large(ish) park which people used as a cut-through to the shops but which wasn't over-run with dogs at all (or I wouldn't have gone there tbh). But then if you live in a very dog-dense area/big city are you likely to own 10 collies lol

> But then if you live in a very dog-dense area/big city are you likely to own 10 collies lol

Yep 6 collie size dogs (Norwegian Elkhounds) is my limit, and that would mean half are Veterans.  For the first time I have three under 7 years of age (11 months to 5 years 1 month), and lost my third/oldest Veteran in August.

It's only the last 5 years things have go really bad so I take at most three, free running at most, but I prefer to take them all out together to maximise their outings.

thanks ml, here is a video of my boy in our park was around 10 in the morning so as you see its not very busy the lock in bit was not their at the time i filmed this now they have made another area further along from this bit of park totally fenced off,
just so people sea i am not walking the streets with my dogs off lead im playing with my dog, he is a very energetic boy and loves to run and play no amount of walking on lead could satisfy him, he would miss his play to much,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwe8smJloW8&feature=g-upl&context=G2844a6dAUAAAAAAAAAA

Awww!  :-)

Bless him.

no doubt someone will find fault with me letting my boy play off lead, but dogs are allowed here, ohh well you just cant please all the people all the time,,,

am uploading some of the my bull terriers in another lock in bit of green around here but its a smaller one than the new one, it again shows its normally pretty quiet here except for the odd plonker,,

Awww, he loves his footie doesn't he :-D Bless him.

Awww, he loves his footie doesn't he :-D Bless him :)

mad for it he is, i find he is the sort of dog who could quite happily amuse himself when on a walk infact he amuses us all lol, and he is very funny the small hills in that park their he will roll on his back and rub himself down the hills,
he also likes plastic bottles when he finds them on the floor  he will push them round the park  then wants to bring them home i have managed to train him to leave them at the recycle bin on the estate now tho loool, so you see he is ever doing his bit to keep our community clean and help hte environment lol,
my Rottie is a really great boy and has always since a puppy picked up things very quickly he is very clever boy with a fantastic character you cant help sometimes forgetting his a dog lololol,

he is six now and i do worry that he is getting on in years and for his health, my biggest fear is the big C,, i had a 7 year old Rottie many years ago who had to be pts and a local man here lost his 2 before xmas within months of each other they where a little older than my boy, it scares me very much.
cant imagine i would ever find a Dog quite like him again :-)

He's awesome Chelzeagirl!!  (but do get that spikey collar off him ;) you know what people are like!).

heehee Funny you should say that TT , when we bought his muzzle the other day we also bought all new collars for all the dogs,, Sensible ones this time, me and hubby said we seem to be getting more sensible in our old age :-D ,,, i will say this for that collar tho it was usefull when my boy was attacked by that pittbull  as the pitt had hold of that collar instead of my boys neck, its got the teeth marks to prove it and even the police said it help save my boy from damage,, but anyway we got nice new soft but strong ones now ;-)