I can never understand why spammers can't write comprehensible sentences which actually make you want to click on the link. 

V good Gema.  One of our dogs also came from an entirely indoors raised litter (in the kitchen), and you can really tell the difference.

Thank you Stooge ! No way would I have clicked on that link having learned the hard way through a virus attachment on one such ( different poster). Thought his/her first poster was bizarre to say the least.

> Thought his/her first poster was bizarre to say the least.

Using Google translation I suspect :)

I know people who raise pups indoors for the first three weeks, then they are outside most of the time, coming in for shorter periods as a group and also longer periods as individual pups.

There again, these people also take their puppies out in the car a couple of times before a new owner picks them up, socializes to the sounds of household noises, common livestock, (cows, sheep, chickens) and puts in the beginnings of both house training and recall..

This sort of set up I think is fab, and shouldn't cause any problems at all.

What worries me is if pups are entirely raised in the kennel and never see the inside of the house AND are not socialised either... then, assuming the buyer takes the pup into their own house and expects the pup to live indoors and cope with household noises, theres almost guaranteed problems.

What would really put me off, would be someone whose dogs were all kennelled, even adults not allowed into the house at all AND multiple litters - that would be a definite 'walk away' (though tbh, not allowing the dogs in the house at all would put me off too, I want house dogs, not outside dogs).

> What worries me is if pups are entirely raised in the kennel and never see the inside of the house AND are not socialised either... then, assuming the buyer takes the pup into their own house and expects the pup to live indoors and cope with household noises, theres almost guaranteed problems.
>

Maybe not all breeds are the same but, like I said, this used to be the norm for gundogs and probably lots of other working breeds and it does not seem to have caused problems in the past. 
Our very first cocker came from such a home and in fact we were not able to take her until 12 weeks so she had spent longer than most in that sort of environment.  She was a lovely friendly, confident girl and, remarkably, from the very first night in the house, we had NO puddles.

I went to see 3 collie pups on Sat. The pics on their advert showed them in the lounge so that looked promising. However, when I arrived at the farm all the adults were chained up (including poor mum). The pups also appeared to be kept outside although the pup I was particularly interested in was already in the lounge. However, it seemed to me that they must spend very little time in the house as he was petrified and kept hiding by the side of the sofa, showing no interest in the breeder, the toys I had bought etc so I had to suggest we bring his littermates in to see if that made him feel braver. Interestingly, the most bold of the pups (a tri bitch) was the daughter's favourite and hence the one that spent the most time indoors and being handled.

The house was like a show room, absolutely immaculate with the newest and best of everything. You wouldn't have known you were on a farm and you certainly couldn't tell they had dogs - no toys/bowls/throws/pictures or anything to suggest a hint of dog. I was amazed when the breeder said the pups had NEVER had a wee/poo inside either, which also suggested that they were never in for any length of time. Shame as a stunning looking pup but I said no, too much of a gamble for me, who is looking for a collie to train for Obedience. To be honest, if I were looking for a pet dog I would still have walked away as that pup and the other male were so shy (the other one was even worse, stayed flat on the floor and wouldn't move for the first 20 mins!) it looked like they would be stressed by lots of everyday life situations. I explained why I wasn't going to buy the pup and wish I had thought to say 'If you had brought the 2 boys in as much as the girl, they would probably be as confident as she is. It can make such a difference to their temperament at that stage of their life.' That night, the advert was updated to show more photos in the lounge and the puppy I had gone to see was now an extra £50!! Also felt so sorry for the mum - reared her litter and back on a chain again. 

I will ask a lot more questions next time and not take things at face value.    

:(  Breaks my heart.  One of ours came from a litter reared outdoors which never went inside and received little by way of handling or socialisation.  Breeder was also selling them at 6wks, and given the environment and us having older dogs, we thought to get her out of there asap.  She is perfect with other dogs, but she is still scared by the vacuum cleaner, spooked by anything falling anywhere unexpectedly in the house, and doesn't like being touched on certain parts of her body - between the end of her ribs and her back legs, in that hollower area.  Despite extensive socialisation and attending puppy classes and lots of handling as a pup with us.  I just don't think that missing out on certain things in early weeks can be compensated for, now.

> Breeder was also selling them at 6wks

Doesn't sound like it was a decent breeder so perhaps temperament of parents was also doubtful.  As I say, reputable breeders of old did not all rear their puppies indoors and yet temperament did not appear to have been a major issue.  They could produce good working dogs and dogs with the temperament to be handled easily in the show ring.

The temperament of the parents was fantastic, as I met both before breeding.  The breeder was obviously not a 'decent breeder' or he wouldn't have been rearing puppies entirely outdoors without socialisation.  Not sure where you're getting the facts and statistics from to make such sweeping statements as

>reputable breeders of old did not all rear their puppies indoors and yet temperament did not appear to have been a major issue.  They could produce good working dogs and dogs with the temperament to be handled easily in the show ring.

Please do show us the proof of this... Until then I will ignore it. 

The past was not an idyllic time when there were no behavioural problems.  In fact, we know far more about how to rear a dog to give it the best chances now, than was known in decades past.

If you know so much about gundog breeders 'of old' you'd also know that many of them routinely homed puppies at 6wks, because they believed it enabled the puppy to bond better with the new owner, the younger it was homed. 

> Until then I will ignore it. 
>

Please do, if that is your inclination :).

> The past was not an idyllic time when there were no behavioural problems. 

Proof? :)
I'm probably a lot older than you and met some of these breeders and their dogs, indeed it was just such a breeder that we got our first dog from having met several previously bred by them.

> If you know so much about gundog breeders 'of old' you'd also know that many of them routinely homed puppies at 6wks, because they believed it enabled the puppy to bond better with the new owner, the younger it was homed. 

Actually, no I don't any that did because the would generally not wish to make selections that early but of course, the GDB do with enormous success, but then they put considerable resources into ensuring the correct parents in the first place. 

I don't know about dogs being reared better than ever, think rescues would say different.

Also I don't necessarily agree it matters what era your from, you either get dogs and try your best or you simply are in it for the cash.

> I don't know about dogs being reared better than ever, think rescues would say different.

Exactly, there seems to be far more seperation anxiety than I ever used to hear of and I cannot help wondering if we are, infact, failing to culture easy independence.
I am not saying they should go without sufficient human contact but I do wonder if having humans constantly to hand is all that good for them either.

>reputable breeders of old did not all rear their puppies indoors and yet temperament did not appear to have been a major issue.

The reputable ones had plenty of staff to interact with the litters; there was plenty of human activity dealing with all the kennel work. They weren't isolated from human contact for the majority of the time.

>there seems to be far more seperation anxiety than I ever used to hear of and I cannot help wondering if we are, infact, failing to culture easy independence.

I think, as with certain human conditions (autism springs to mind ), it's simply recognised and acknowledged more. People treat it rather than (with dogs!) just 'get rid'.

I know that the kennel-reared pup we had was the most clingy of all our dogs.

> The reputable ones had plenty of staff to interact with the litters

I think plenty didn't. Wives were at home more in those days. 

> They weren't isolated from human contact for the majority of the time.

I'm sure they weren't, the ones reared by dedicated breeders anyway, they were just not kept in the house.

> I know that the kennel-reared pup we had was the most clingy of all our dogs.

As I said, my experience was the exact opposite.  The trouble is there are so many other factors that determine these things and we are never going to have any true double blind trials on matching litters are we? :). 
I can only say from my own experience of rearing in kennels, when other factors such as genetics and adequate human attention are good does not appear to lead to "inevitable" problems and there, perhaps, should not be this tyrany that puppies can only be reared in one way.

Exactly, there seems to be far more seperation anxiety than I ever used to hear of and I cannot help wondering if we are, infact, failing to culture easy independence.

I expect a fair amount of that is to do with the fact that many years ago hundreds of pet dogs were allowed to roam the streets......not to be shut indoors alone all day, also many women did not work so they were not alone so much.

I'm sure that is part of it, Merlot :)

> I expect a fair amount of that is to do with the fact that many years ago hundreds of pet dogs were allowed to roam the streets

yes, when I had my first dog I was regarded as quite an oddity  in my neighbourhood as I took my dog out for walks and did not just turf him out in the morning and let him back at tea time. I also think the free ranging lifestyle was the reason dogs  did not seem to have as much problem with inter dog aggression as they do now. Left to roam dogs learned how to get on with other dogs much more effectively than they do at the carious training classes offered today. They were also taken out and about more such as to pick the kids up from school and to the shopsd etc so get more socialisation than a lot of todays dogs.

I don't think previous generations of dogs were necessarily of sounder temperament. More that society was providing much more of the ecperiences dogs need to become well adjusted individuals. Nowadays a lot of pets lead much less social stimulation being shut up all day while the owners work, going for a walk and being put on the lead as soon as another dog comes into view. No wonder there are more behaviour problems. And also there was much less tolerance of problem dogs than there is today. years ago a problem dog was just taken to the vets so effectively removed from the gene pool.

Which brings me to another point. With all the loose dogs roaming around there was a much greater chance of a bitch getting pregnant by one of the local dogs, There were a lot more mongrel puppies born from dogs that had a reasonable temperament as they had to have so there was a form of natural selection going on for sound temperaments and good pet qualities.

With the change today so that most litters today being borne as a result of humans deciding to breed 2 dogs together you don't get the same predisposition to sound dogs. and with dogs with problems being "fixed" rather than removed from the gene pool altogether more dogs with unsound temperaments are likely to be produced.

I agree, Newyork.  I think we need to pay much more heed to genetic factors when it comes to temperament rather that where and how breeders choose to rear.
I'm sure there is something in your theory to the natural selection of the temperaments of these roaming dogs although I don't think it would apply to the breeders I am talking about, who bred for show or work, as these more valuable pedigrees were not left to roam.  They would, however, have applied selection of temperament themselves as they really needed to to achieve success with their dogs.

I think with some breeds you can get away with having pups outside but my breed - Border Collies/Working Sheepdogs - are, on the whole, more sensitive I think and thus suffer more if they're not handled, exposed to new stimulus/situations, given confidence etc which seems to come more naturally with a home reared litter. My problem then is that few Obedience people health test (or only do the eye test, as it's the cheapest) and the pet folk might home rear (but not health test) but will the lines be worky enough?

Where is the coherent line of conversation, through all this?

Dogs wandering about all day are going to experience far more human interaction and socialisation with other dogs than dogs locked up in kennels... How does the thread about 'how things used to be' have anything much to do with 'dogs being kennelled or living in the home'?? 

Of course there are many factors to consider, but the fact is that people are extremely busy and dogs don't always come top of the agenda in most households with one/two pet dogs.  With a kennel, 'out of sight, out of mind' becomes far more possible than when dogs are in the home, and constantly reminding people of their existence.  A dog kept in the home is able to seek out a brief moment of contact, a pat or two every hour, a kind word when someone walks past - all this adds up and amounts to a considerable quantity of time and attention.  A dog kept in a kennel (a lot) simply isn't going to receive the same degree of human contact.  It's absolutely obvious that is the case.

I would never home a puppy to a home where I knew the new owners intended to kennel it outdoors for any amount of time.  Regardless of whether it was a competition home, or desirable in another way. 

Totally agree Rabid. Even if the litter of pups isn't being handled at that particular moment in time, the mere fact that they are in the house means that they will seeing/hearing/experiencing far more of everyday life than a kennel reared litter ever could/would. I too would never sell to a person who kennels their dogs for any length of time - Ian Dunbar said that people who keep their dogs outside don't have pets, they have livestock. 

and then things are never black and white.

My dogs live in my home, but four of them do use a double kennel, just outside the back-door and Kitchen as a bedroom.

This doubles as outside weather protected play area when pups are at the running around stage. 

Pups are in the living-room for the first three weeks, and the kitchen after that.  Radio or TV on all day, and of course the vacuum, washing machine, and all the normal comings and goings of the humans.

There is also a 10 x 12 foot enclosed dog run for pups to safely play, and allows adults peace, to interact or not as they choose (a board across the open doorway allows for this, and it is only closed when they are fed outside if the weather permits.

The largest indoor puppy area I can make indoors is 6 x 3 foot, so by 4 1/2 weeks this is simply not large enough, for the amount of space and play my breed want, but is fine for sleeping, meals,  and quiet time, and it's in the kitchen so easy to swap pups between, while cleaning other areas (and airing out the puppy poo smell).  By 6 weeks I find the pups have enough manners to have free reign of communal dog areas, so in and out at will, but still get put in dog run or puppy pen for meals.

So would you say these pups are kennel reared, because they have out facilities outdoors and prefer to spend more time out then in digging and shredding????  Or that I have kennel dogs, because they sleep out?

Brainless, my post wasn't so much about rearing puppies as keeping dogs. 

Either way, I do think a determined and committed person can have happy dogs spending *some* amount of time kennelled.  But not all the time, or the majority of time.

I wouldn't want to, and couldn't keep dogs kennelled without causing nuisance in the urban environment I live in.

LOL, It's more a case of over stimulation by being outdoors, and keeping them from reacting to this by blocking their view and hearing indoors if I am not around.

    >reputable breeders of old did not all rear their puppies indoors and yet temperament did not appear to have been a major issue.

The reputable ones had plenty of staff to interact with the litters; there was plenty of human activity dealing with all the kennel work. They weren't isolated from human contact for the majority of the time.

I think this is an issue with two sides to the coin. I would say genetics count for more than anything else, but you can improve on a poor genetic temperament by socialising well. The Swedish KC has just (2012) ran a series of articles in their magazine about acquiring a puppy, socialising it etc. There were so many interesting points in the series that I cut some of it out and stuck it in a note book for future reference. For instance it gave a list of places/experiences to expose your pup to, and we have stuck pretty much to this with our latest pup -bar a few things, for instance I could not find a marina to take her to, nor do I think she will need to be used to being around boats. :) Anyway, the articles stated that breeders really should aim to produce pups that are EASY to socialise; that cope with new situations easily. This is the thought that I myself have had for years, since I produced (not by design!) a litter of pups that really were pretty terrible all told, unable to cope with many aspects of normal life despite being reared indoors and despite being socialised. (Some of these pups turned out to be superb, but some of them are simply not normal at all and cannot cope with simple things that any pet must be able to cope with, such as going for a walk in a new area.) My thought all along has been to breed only from the boldest dogs, those that can get scared on occasion but that RECOVER well and quickly and get on with life. Anyway, the article said that in certain breeds, in particular pastoral breeds (so both my own and the collies in this thread) dogs exist that cannot ever STOP being socialised. You have to continue for life. It likened it to swimming against the tide -if you stop swimming (i.e. stop socialising) you will end up going backwards, no matter how long you have been moving forwards. Some dogs you have to keep socialisation up for their entire lives.

Amongst all this waffle is the point I'm wanting to make. When I arrived in the UK in 1988, I had a very clear picture of what breeder I wanted to buy my next puppy from, a very wellknown breeder who had produced many of the dogs directly behind the dogs I had had at home in Sweden. (Gundogs.) I ended up buying 3 dogs from this breeder over the years. This was a proper old school breeder, wealthy, worked her dogs as well as showed them, had started breeding in the 1930s. And all pups reared in kennels FULLY -there was no way on earth these pups were being allowed in the house. (When I say "house" -think country houses like you see on TV!) As she was getting on in age when I bought my first pup off her she did not breed as much as in the past and only had one person working for her, and therefore I doubt very much the pups had a LOT of interaction. They were fed, their kennels cleaned etc, it can't have been an awful lot more as all the adults also had to be cared for. Yet all these pups fitted in PERFECTLY in a normal household, and there was never even a hint of the pups (one in 1988, one in 1996 and one in 1997) being nervous or even the slightest bit unsure of anything. This MUST have been because they were BORN this way (just like the pup I have at the moment who is half working bred and is TOTALLY different to all my other dogs) and the reason for this being that this breeder for decades wanted dogs that not only looked good, but that could WORK as well. Just like the farm collies of the past, they had to be able to do their work in the field, and nobody would even have considered breeding from a dog or bitch who didn't have the correct temperament for their purpose. Or even pure showdogs; if the kennelled dogs weren't able to cope with what was expected of them, they certainly would not be kept and bred from. The temperament had to be right from the start.

Oh Marianne I so agree with you.

My first dog, was considered by many to have an excellent temperament (her first show critique by Hazel Pond raved about her outgoing temperament).  She showed, loved to say hello and interact with people and came with me everywhere with kids and pushchair.  She was almost entirely a product of nurture in this sense.

This was entirely socialisation, and it was brought strongly to mind when I was out and my ex husband was home and we had visitors.  When I got home she greeted me and proceeded to seek a pat from the visitors.  They sat open mouthed as it turns out without me to bolster her confidence she had refused to greet them and had hidden in the kitchen.

When I first had her at 8 weeks old I was disappointed to find she hid from visitors at first, and I proceeded to work hard on getting her socialised.

By 6 months and her first show she was pretty good.  She was terrified of Fireworks, and hot air balloons to the extent of bolting several times, until she realised that running to Mum was safest, and I could usually preempt flight by knowing her body language.  I used to have to allow her time out, I could read the signs of stress, when she found visiting children just too much (though she loved mine dearly).

When she died I wanted a breed  that wasn't emotionally such hard work.  I bought my foundation bitch from a rural home at 11 1/2 weeks, and just couldn't believe how easily socialising her was (even though she howled in the car fro the first 15 minutes), how she didn't jump out of her skin if I stepped over her, dropped something clattery near her, or at every new thing, if she startled, she would think, approach with care, and shrug when it was clear it was nothing to worry about.  

Mind you she was harder to lead train, as she would not blindly follow my lead, or need me so much for emotional back-up.  I often felt that up to at least 6 months she would have happily have gone off with any person to speak to her in the park.

By a year she certainly would happily go with another person (say her breeder at a show), but was more than eager to return to me.

> and then things are never black and white.
>

Exactly.  If it is a busy kennel with much work and grooming going on with probably at least one human at home for much of the time there is likely to be as much if not more human interaction than some hobby breeders who "are very busy" perhaps working at least part time.  What matters is human interaction the rest is just geography.

I disagree. Pups raised in the home are mentally much more stimulated than kennel reared litters and it's challenging the brain when it is young (and more readily accepts new things/recovers more quickly from events) which is so helpful to the pup's temperament. The kennel raised litter may never have been on carpet/lino/tiles/wood/grass etc. It won't have heard the vacuum cleaner/washing machine/tv/phone/kids' noise etc. All the human interaction in the world can't replace this. I can't recall seeing many litters in kennel which had raised surfaces to climb on (elevation is considered to be helpful in stimulating puppies brains), a large variety of toys which are regularly changed, a variety of textures to play with and run on, exposure to household sounds etc. Yes, I have seen the odd sad chewed toy but it's woeful compared to what could be provided. And yes, genetics does of course play it's part but I wouldn't want to take the chance that the pups will inherit their parents' temperament - I would work to make sure they were as bomb-proof and confident as possible. Perhaps this is why I have only bred twice in fifteen years, I want to do it properly.

And yes, genetics does of course play it's part but I wouldn't want to take the chance that the pups will inherit their parents' temperament - I would work to make sure they were as bomb-proof and confident as possible.

I don't think anyone has  said it should be done this way now -I was just explaining WHY it worked in the past! Breeders were actually breeding better dogs. I had 3 pups that had never seen a vacuum or a TV or anything and it made no difference at all. Buy a pup reared like that today and it would have enormous problems.

> Yes, I have seen the odd sad chewed toy but it's woeful compared to what could be provided.

Why on earth is the provision of interesting toys dictated by location? 
Again, I'm sure there are breed differences but I have never had a puppy raised indoors or out that has not taken new experiences in its stride as they arose. 
Maybe indoor reared puppies miss out on the opportunity of experiencing so many of the outside sounds and smells.  Maybe they miss out on the experience of having to amuse themselves occasionally and risk becoming far too dependent :) 

>I can't recall seeing many litters in kennel which had raised surfaces to climb on (elevation is considered to be helpful in stimulating puppies brains),

I have never allowed my puppies to climb on surfaces in my kitchen or do you mean just when they are put up on table to be looked at?  I'm sure kennel people do that too.  I don't see why they will not get to experience other exercise areas either. 

Good post Marianne :)

> for instance I could not find a marina to take her to, nor do I think she will need to be used to being around boats. :-)

As you know I have a BSD x working sheepdog - both breeds that need a lot of socialisation and to experience all kinds of things. So as I lived on the coast at the time, when he was a puppy he went on boats - just short ferry rides, one small boat and one larger ferry. He was fine on the boats (just as he is on buses and trains) but what I didn't pick up on was that where you get boats, you also get floating jetties and he wasn't too keen on those (=walking on things that move). In hindsight I should have worked on that, because it later translated into a nervousness of being on anything that moves under his feet - grooming table that wobbles slightly, dog walk and see-saw at agility. With the latter two, even after 6 months of 1-1 lessons he still will not go on them (dogwalk, not tried the see saw as it would be a disaster!) because it moves very slightly under his weight and he doesn't trust it.

I think that a lot of some of the differences being discussed are breed-related.  There is much research into socialisation with various different breeds, and some breeds (gundogs) are actually quite easy to socialise because they recover from scary things relatively quickly and they remain receptive to new things longer.  Guarding and herding breeds on the other hand, are much trickier...

I think some people are also forgetting that the dog of today has to tolerate FAR more than dogs did 30 years ago.

People expected dogs to BE dogs 30 years ago.. they were supposed to bark at things, people did not seem to expect to be able to fuss and kiss in the face every dog they met, dogs were accepted in many more places too..

So a dog from a less than ideally stimulating environment as a puppy, going into a family home, would have had much more leeway on behaviour and been able to go to many more places t han todays puppies can.

I am lucky where I live now, that I can take a puppy into many shops, I can probably wangle taking a puppy into some supermarkets that don't strictly allow dogs at all, almost ALL pubs allow dogs, I can go all around town and down to the docks and there are very few areas I cannot take a dog to.

But I now live in a rural area, and thats the difference - 12 months ago, I couldn't take a puppy into the centre of my small town, because effectively the ENTIRE town is now  a covered shopping mall and dogs are not permitted. There are NO pubs there one can take a dog in, not even banks (well they might but they are in the covered shopping centre so you can't), lots of the buses won't allow dogs on as although its at the drivers discretion.. most of the drivers won't allow it...

So a puppy coming from a kennel environment into my current home, depending onthe breed, would probably be absolutely fine, because from 8 weeks on I can take that pup everywhere.

But a pup coming to the previous house would not, because the options were 'park', 'street' or 'friends house' which is very much more limiting.

There is a difference in attitude here as well, whilst its not quite so tolerant as things were a few decades ago, dogs here are still expected to be dogs, there are few nasty looks if your dog BARKS.. omg.. or if you go to the pub and your dog and another visiting dog dislike one another its ok, just go to different ends of the pub or beer garden, no harm done!

In pubs here, it is children who are tolerated and liable to be asked to leave (well, their parents asked to remove them) if they make a racket... not the dogs!

He was fine on the boats (just as he is on buses and trains) but what I didn't pick up on was that where you get boats, you also get floating jetties and he wasn't too keen on those (=walking on things that move). In hindsight I should have worked on that, because it later translated into a nervousness of being on anything that moves under his feet - grooming table that wobbles slightly, dog walk and see-saw at agility.

Certainly goes to show how you have to think about what you might need to do in future -and it's easy to forget!! :)

I think that a lot of some of the differences being discussed are breed-related.

Definitely (again it's genetics -see what I said earlier about pastoral breeds) but as most breeds are no longer expected to be able to do a day's work, those dogs that would never have been bred from in the past are now being bred from. The breeder I was talking about that I got  3 pups from that had been kennel reared, she was very wellknown worldwide. In one book about the breed, there was a chapter about famous kennels, and she had been interviewed. This was in the 80s.  In the interview she says that these days (that was already 30 years ago!) people were breeding the dogs to be too soft, so that "if you have to tell the dog off in a stern voice, it will flop on its back.  You cannot have a working dog act like this". (This isn't an exact quote, but the gist of it.) You DO see some examples of even the traditionally easy to socialise breeds such as the gundogs and Cavaliers that don't recover as well as they should do.

Nail on head Marianne!!

Got it in one...there are those of us who take great care to breed puppies who will be easy to socialise...

Time after time, after time.

and yet ....it's sometimes not simply a matter of breeding from proven good temperaments and socialising - I imported  a bitch from France who spent the first 9 months of her life on an isolated French farm ,seeing and doing nothing - she has proved to be the most bombproof dog we've ever owned who practically sleeps though fireworks , accepts any new situation with aplomb, is intensely sociable to humans, dogs and other animals and is a most succesful Therapy dog based on her wonderful 'easy' temperament.

She has had two litters both by stud dogs chosen for their exceptionally good temperaments - the pups were born in our spare bedroom, reared in the dining room and were socialised to within an inch of their lives and yet neither of the pups we kept have anywhere near the temperament of their mum - the bitch is sound sensitive and is reactive to other dogs - the dog was 'spooked' at a show last year and I'm still working on getting him back to being happy to be gone over by male judges.

I also had a dog who as a youngster would shake like a leaf at any new situation and would wet himself when we tried to show him - by the age of 3 years though he had grown up mentally and  LOVED the show ring and was made up in three straight shows - we bred on from him and his daughter was our first therapy dog and all her life she had an easy non reactive temperament.

Certainly with my breed ( BSD ) it's rarely simply a matter of Nature OR nurture but a complex ever changing mix of things that determine how they will turn out !!

Yvonne

Oh yes Yvonne, don't I know it! Had to chuckle at a recent show we were both at, our hubbies were stood together chatting after judging, yours says to mine "I HATE Belgians!" (due to them being so difficult) and mine agrees and then they have a good moan! :) Best we can do though is try our best to select for temperament, and as I'm sure you have noticed there are people that do not bother as long as the looks are right.

> but as most breeds are no longer expected to be able to do a day's work, those dogs that would never have been bred from in the past are now being bred from.

But do we have an option? in this day and age when people are expected to keep a dog or bitch for life? what happens if your bitch turns out to have a less than perfect temperament.  Not bad but perhaps just not quite as confident as you would like. There is a limit to how many dogs most people can have and lets face it nowadays there would be a huge outcry if someone rehomed or worse still put  down a healthy dog because its temperament was just slightly soft. So you have to keep your bitch and maybe look for a better dog to put it to in the hope of getting a more confident puppies.

Marianne said she had bred a litter of puppies whose temperaments were not good. but I doubt she went out to deliberately breed a litter who were not sound. Marianne where did the bad temperament come from? was it your bitch  or the dog? did you realise that the pups were not what you hoped before they went to their new homes? and what if you had reaslised this. What would you have done with the pups? It would take a strong person these days to put down a whole litter of unsound pups. I would lay odds that even if the pups seemed a bit more sensitive than they should then you and the other owners thought  that with work they would improve.

Well, breeding for temperament is complicated - just as you can put together 2 (say) black dogs and get a non-black dog sometimes, so you can put together 2 bomb proof dogs and get shy, timid dogs.  It all depends on recessive genes and on the combination of dam and sire and what that produces and that is a lot harder to predict than physical appearance. 

I also think that there is a huge societal shift going on for dogs and their role in human society at the moment.  They are moving further and further away from the functions they had for us in days past (guarding, hunting, herding etc etc) as we have increasingly little need for these activities as a society.  (Obviously some people need them, but fewer and fewer.)  Meanwhile, dogs are more and more being required to be companions and family members and to provide something emotionally for the people they are living with.  This is the new 'demand' and 'need'.  It has also been there in the past, but the emphasis is different now; this is now their primary role and 'work', not those other functions they were bred for in the past. 

What that means for breeders, I don't know:  Do they continue to breed for the qualities their breeds are known for, traditionally (herding, guarding, hunting etc), even if this frequently creates a mismatch when those dogs have to fit into a human family which doesn't use them for those purposes?  Or do they alter what they are breeding for and end up breeding away from what the dog's traditional function was?

I don't think there are easy answers to this one.  I am passionate about working gundogs and trying to preserve their working abilities and instincts.  Yet I fully recognise that it is getting harder and harder to home litters bred entirely for working ability in suitable homes, since their energy levels and hunting instincts make them very difficult pets.  You may place one or two in a working home, but it's unusual to place an entire litter in that way.  So what to do?  Breed away from what I am passionate about preserving?  Risk homing pups in homes which are not suitable?  Do you breed for the demand from society for various qualities?  Do you breed to preserve what you care about even if the number of other people who want those qualities is ever diminishing? 

Marianne said she had bred a litter of puppies whose temperaments were not good. but I doubt she went out to deliberately breed a litter who were not sound. Marianne where did the bad temperament come from? was it your bitch  or the dog? did you realise that the pups were not what you hoped before they went to their new homes? and what if you had reaslised this. What would you have done with the pups?

No it was a huge surprise and of course I can never be certain where it came from and there are plenty of lovely dogs out there from the same sire (also the odd problem one I now know of), but I did mate the same bitch to a different dog 2 years later and that litter is completely different to the first, despite being reared the same way. Maybe it was the combination, who knows. Maybe (and this is a recent thought of mine) it was even the fact that this was the one litter where the bitch was vaccinated at the same time as being mated. I'm NOT somebody worried about vaccinations, but it does make you wonder in this case. One of the dogs in the first litter has been described by a human doctor as being similar to an autistic child. In the first litter, I started to worry at 3 weeks of age as I would put my hand out to the pups in the whelping box and they would move AWAY from me rather than run towards me as other pups had done in the past. I discussed it with other breeders and judges and indeed had some visit, and everyone said oh don't worry, they're not as bad as you think, seen this before, they will be fine. This was a litter where I allowed several people to pick a pup as they were wanted for working purposes and so correct temperament was vital to them. (Well I picked my pup first of course but I picked her on LOOKS.) The first people to pick were a security firm, they wanted two dog pups (to be brought up separately with different handlers, so not a problem) so they quickly found the two most confident pups and they are today successful working dogs, doing a professional job week in and week out. A bitch wanted for obedience is now in class C obedience and grade 5 agility, has worked at Crufts etc so she has done extremely well -but even she isn't AS confident as she should be, but has a very skilled handler. Those 3 are the success stories. The second bitch to be picked went to a friend of mine, she has an absolutely perfect temperament, very outgoing and fearless. Then the next bitch is in a pet home, she definitely has issues, gets scared really easily, her vet calls her the leaf as she shakes so much when examined, but she is able to lead a fairly normal pet life and her owners love her. (Those owners ended up getting a pup from the same mother's next litter, and the moment they met those pups they said how different they were from the first time, and that dog has had no issues at all. And what lovely people to come BACK to me despite the first dog not being perfect!) Then there is one dog that went to a very experienced home for agility, and he's a total mess. Well he's a LOT better than he was as his lovely owner has worked so much with him, but for instance he could from one day to another decide he could not walk into the kitchen because he was suddenly scared of the kitchen table -after having seen it in the same place for years. He's had so many issues I can't even list them all and if there was an award for best puppy buyer , it would go to his owner as she has done EVERYTHING for her dog when most people would have given up. Even when he started biting her own husband when aged 3 she did not give up -and by then I MYSELF told her to give up! They were banned from various training classes due to the dog being so unreliable with both dogs and people, eventually found good classes and the more they work, the more confidence he gains, but he will never be a normal dog. Yet this owner ALSO wants another pup from me eventually! She's a saint is all I can say.

The bitch I kept is extremely sensitive. Say we are out for a walk and I stumble ever so slightly, that freaks her out enough for her to flatten herself to the ground. That's her default mode -get worried, flatten yourself. I can't use her lead at all as if I touch it, she flattens herself. It has to just hang loose. For years I could not even wave my arms near her as that would make her flatten herself, although this is improving just lately. Yet she has NEVER been treated harshly or been punished for anything, she has always been this way. Tell her to sit and stay or down and stay and she thinks as she has been told something she must NEVER move again -I had to stop doing stays with her at training as she would glue herself to the floor and not move even if called.

And I had to keep the last dog pup in the litter as the final home fell through. He had a bad vet experience aged 6 months and that was the start of a very difficult time period for him, as he did not recover from it. (The vet forcefully held him down in a corner despite the pup screaming in fear.) If you turn up with a collar and lead, he will run AWAY, trying to hide, so that he does not have to go for a walk. If you get collar and lead on him he will plonk his bum down and refuse to move out of the house. His sister isn't too keen on walks either. Needless to say, all my other dogs run towards me begging for a walk! Initially he could not be seen by any vet (we changed vet practice, of course) and when he HAD to go we muzzled him and the vet would see him in the car park, most of the time not touching him at all. We have worked with him and now he can actually go for walks (but he only likes it in familiar places) and we can walk him in to the vets' waiting room and he's calm, the vet can even examine him although he is very scared when being touched (still muzzle him to play safe). At HOME, he's a normal very happy dog, away from home he's a different dog. So there are four pups from this litter that are not as they should at all, through no fault of their upbringing. 4 are perfect, and the last 2 neither good nor bad -sensitive but not unreasonably so.

Had I had a crystal ball when these pups were all still here, and known what they would have turned out like, I think I would have had some of them put to sleep. But of course there was no way of KNOWING. But I learnt my lesson and since then am absolutely paranoid about how pups behave from 3 weeks of age and should I get another backing off at that age, I would have to think twice about selling it -in fact I couldn't risk selling it. As it is now, with our male dog (BTW, needless to say NONE from this litter will ever be bred from! Not even the good ones) -should anything happen to myself or my husband, he would have to be put down as he could not cope with life without us/away from here, and he is not safe as when scared chances are he would bite.

Stooge said 'Maybe indoor reared puppies miss out on the opportunity of experiencing so many of the outside sounds and smells.  Maybe they miss out on the experience of having to amuse themselves occasionally and risk becoming far too dependent :-)'

and

'I have never allowed my puppies to climb on surfaces in my kitchen or do you mean just when they are put up on table to be looked at?  I'm sure kennel people do that too.  I don't see why they will not get to experience other exercise areas either.' 

Sorry for the late reply, been a hectic day. My litters (both born at the beginning of August, 14 years apart) spent a lot of time outside being allowed to play/explore etc, weather permitting, and this included being in the hen pen (large area, no danger to the hens, and never unsupervised), out in the one acre garden, on grass/concrete/patio slabs etc. When I mentioned raised surfaces I meant having something like a mini pallet for the pups to clamber over, play king of the castle, sleep under etc.

> My litters (both born at the beginning of August, 14 years apart) spent a lot of time outside being allowed to play/explore etc, weather permitting, and this included being in the hen pen (large area, no danger to the hens, and never unsupervised), out in the one acre garden, on grass/concrete/patio slabs etc.

So really not much different to a litter that sleeps outside too :).

> When I mentioned raised surfaces I meant having something like a mini pallet for the pups to clamber over, play king of the castle, sleep under etc.

Why do you think that sort of activity cannot happen in a kennel set up?

I really can't see this, outside bad, inside good thing.  There are good breeders and bad breeders.  Those that spend appropriate amounts of time caring for and nurturing their litters and those that don't and where that happens is just geography to me.
There are benefits to having litters inside, much of it for the breeders comfort when all is said and done :) and there may be drawbacks too as, inevitably, there will be less fresh air and natural light enjoyed by the puppies and the growth of independence.

Fine post 'Trevor'.

To Trevor. 

I still think temperament tendencies are still mostly inherited, socialisation or lack of can improve or worsen things, but not change them at heart.

This is why you need to go much further than just the parents in breeds where many dogs are of a sensitive/flighty/wary bent.

>Why do you think that sort of activity cannot happen in a kennel set up?

>I really can't see this, outside bad, inside good thing.

Because a litter which spends NO time indoors is not going to hear routine household noises like vacuum cleaners, washing machines, dishwashers, telephones, doorbells, TVs - and is going to receive less contact with the rest of the family than a litter raised indoors will. 

The puppies are going to receive less human contact if raised outdoors.  Even if they do have one person trying to expose them to things, it will likely be only one member of the family and occasionally another one or other, when they feel like 'seeing the puppies' - it will not be *relentless, ongoing and routine daily exposure* as they would receive indoors.

Of course the same does not apply to puppies who spend time in and outdoors, nor to puppies who spend time outdoors as part of their socialisation experiences.  But to puppies raised exclusively outdoors, I fail to see how it would be otherwise.  Unless the human family is living in the kennel.

> Because a litter which spends NO time indoors is not going to hear routine household noises like vacuum cleaners, washing machines, dishwashers, telephones, doorbells, TVs

Maybe not but I fail to be convinced that matters with a well bred puppy in many breeds, certainly hasn't been born out in my personal experience nor, it would appear, with other experienced posters.  After all, during a dogs life time new technologies arrive, moves are made, doorbells differ enormously etc etc.  My puppies did not start out with dishwashers :)
Indoor reared puppies, by indoor type people :), may also loose out on as much outdoors experiences but I doubt a well bred puppy would not be able to adjust in those instances either :)

I agree also, although mine are all indoor I think its more about effort put in regardless where they are. You see dogs all the time that are just ignored in the house. Its not as simple as whether they like be in a conventional people house or a doggy house.

Stooge said

My litters (both born at the beginning of August, 14 years apart) spent a lot of time outside being allowed to play/explore etc, weather permitting, and this included being in the hen pen (large area, no danger to the hens, and never unsupervised), out in the one acre garden, on grass/concrete/patio slabs etc.

So really not much different to a litter that sleeps outside too :-).

Not at all. There is no comparison. If the litter had slept outside too I would not have spent 10 solid weeks sleeping on the lounge sofa to keep an eye on them.

When I mentioned raised surfaces I meant having something like a mini pallet for the pups to clamber over, play king of the castle, sleep under etc.
Why do you think that sort of activity cannot happen in a kennel set up?

I really can't see this, outside bad, inside good thing.  There are good breeders and bad breeders.  Those that spend appropriate amounts of time caring for and nurturing their litters and those that don't and where that happens is just geography to me.
There are benefits to having litters inside, much of it for the breeders comfort when all is said and done :-) and there may be drawbacks too as, inevitably, there will be less fresh air and natural light enjoyed by the puppies and the growth of independence.

Having the puppies indoors certainly was not for my convenience - it is much, much harder work to have the litter living with you rather than in kennels. And I have not seen any kennel set-ups where the breeder has made the effort to stimulate/amuse/educate/challenge the pups in the way that I tried to. Look at the pics of collie pups for sale on the popular website sites . The farm/kennel reared collies look miserable and scared most of the time, huddled at the back of a soggy straw kennel/barn. The home reared pups are a very different kettle of fish. I want my pup to have the best possible start in life, not reared as livestock.