> what purpose is that, being paraded around a show ring!
>

Not in reply to JAY but to whoever made the remark originally........

I used to have a medium size crossbreed, got him as a rehome at 2½ yrs, he was a happy little soul all the time, in summer we would put him and other dog in car and go off somewhere, could be for a walk but if we got his 'posh' collar and lead out and put them in he got really excited. He was the ultimate poseur and adored being in a show and getting a rosette was the icing on the cake for him.

We could take him to a fete or into town for a walk round, similar amount of people and pats but he never had that 'extra' sparkle that he did in a ring and he switched it on the second he went thru the ring entrance.... and switched it off when we came out.
Who were we to deprive him of the pleasure of 'being paraded around a show ring!'

Chris

Well said Rabid.

Also the KC and breed standards have never asked for exaggeration, this has occurred through misunderstanding and breeders and judges thinking more = better in any feature/trait, or just misunderstanding the requirements with changes in language use etc.

Even many working dogs are far removed from their original purposes, with traits that are too much for actual work as opposed to competitive work or changed type of work.

For example Police work or guide Dog work were not the original purposes of the breeds bred to do these tasks now, and the stock used and selected is often no longer typical of their breed.

Don't be silly! I said ACCIDENTAL.

Above replie is to Jay.

I said ACCIDENTAL

Point taken, Jocelyn, though I suspect you will find that responsible dog owners have few accidental litters and still fewer where the sire is not known. A straw poll might show that most in this situation would opt to abort the litter rather than hope for good homes on the off chance that the puppies turn out to be cute/healthy enough to give away. I think this thread is in danger of trying to prove and disprove generalisations to support polarised opinions (mixed genes=good healthy animal, selective breeding=animal unfit for purpose) with the usual frustrating results.

This thread seems to be straying away from the OP's original question and is becoming argumentative - if anybody wants to discuss what the purpose of showing is, it's probably best if they start a new thread on the Showing board. Please keep this thread on topic or it will be closed.

There is a thread  running at the moment where someone wants to know how people exercise bitches in season, from the answers its a wonder there are not more accidental litters.
I dont think it is an off chance the pups would be heathy I think it would be a good chance. But as you say no way to prove it, and it would depend on lots of other facts.

The point I wanted to make was that once you have given your word on something it is wrong to go back on it.
Thats what I came on this thread to say.

I do not think it is wrong to have a change of mind, nothing is ever set in stone there is many reasons why a pup could become unavailable for instance if their said puppy developed a heart murmur or some other health complaint you would not expect them to have the puppy just because they had planned to have a pup you are only assuming that the people have their heart set on it for all we know (as they have not even seen the litter) they may well be able to have another choice and be equally as pleased with this, the pup is only the property of anyone other than the breeder when they leave to go to their new homes, as they have not even seen this pup it is quite different to them coming and picking their pup and falling in love with it only to end up with nothing.

once you have given your word on something it is wrong to go back on it

Hi Jocelyn, this was how I got my first welshie--I had asked for and been reserved one of his litter brothers, but on the day his breeder offered to refund me because she felt he was the better show prospect and wanted to keep him. I had no real intention of showing and was happy to take the pup she had originally intended to keep. She and he got his JW in the end and my pup hated showing--some things are meant to be and I am glad every day I got the dog that was just right for me.

> 2 cages in the living room at either end of the room so that he can see the bitch has not gone to find a new 'playmate' :-) I rotate them so that they each have time free.

I manage by rotating too.  And, to be honest, as they get special treats and toys,  I can't say that I have to drag a dog into a crate.  You do what you have to do.

same here having 2 girls not spayed and a male all large breed and all live in the home we have to crate and rotate but mine do sleep in them at night anyway always have done from being pups so very use to it! my boy dont howl or bark he just sulks and dont eat from 1 week before their due till 3weeks from bleeding poor boy goes like a rake. but it works for us after feb we will only have 1 girl having seasons so shouldnt be to bad for him then :-)
xx

There almost always is a surplus to requirements.  They are sold off for a hefty fee.  They are not given away.  That is a fact of life.

Excuse me while I pick myself off the floor laughing so hard. Puppies from good breeders are not given away? I have given away far more than I've ever charged for, because the ONLY thing that matters is the right homes. I have also been given pups by people that trust me. And there's your key word -trust. From the way you slag all breeders off, it's clear no good breeder would ever be able to trust YOU.

For all you 'anti' posters, why are you a member of champdogs?  This is a forum/site for people who show dogs and you obviously don't understand the ins/outs of that.  You also assume that as I bred/show pedigree dogs that I don't have anything to do with rescue.  How very assuming of you!  I am actually an area rep for my own breed rescue and drive hundreds of miles sorting out the lesser breeders problems which they walk away from.  Until this summer, I actually had 4 old dogs which were all rescues with no history at all(Hence the reason I don't want my dog numbers up).
As for 'promising' this male pup to this family, I have allready stated that they wanted one of the male pups and would prefer to get the smaller male but obviously they have not made any bond with any pup as nothing is set in stone till they are a bit older and the personalities are shining through.  I have no doubt that I could ask them to swap to the other male with no upset as he is still of the same litter.
I don't think I am a irresponsible breeder at all.  All my dogs and studs are full health tested against ALL genetic conditions which could befall this breed.  I take back all/any of my puppies should the need arise and I have done.  I don't want any of my much-loved puppies to end up in rescue centres after all the care, time, love and affection I put into them for the first 8 weeks.  Also, all of my progeny are endorsed and I have only 1 been asked to lift this(which I did after seeing the results of the testing).
Sorry for starting the age old debate about showing/breeding verses rescue but it is the breeding section I posted in!  But I will not be keeping anything from this litter.  The bitches are not good enough to show or carry forward my lines as they have faults I would not like to pass on to future litters and I don't want to keep a male as I also have children in the house which is a recipy for disaster!  Thanks for all your input.

> I don't want to keep a male as I also have children in the house which is a recipy for disaster!&nbsp; Thanks for all your input. <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20 height=10>

This is why I never kept males, my house does not lend itself for easy rotating even now they have left home and there is just me and hubby, so girls only it is.

I am hoping to keep a puppy from this expensive time consuming fraught trip to the USA but will only do so if a bitch is truly promising of what I want.

Fortunately this time I have a show home booked for a male where he will be available to use at stud if he turns out well, and I could use him on his mother's half sister, so that the whole venture was not wasted for me personally, but at the very least it will widen our gene pool for a while.

I agree that most 'breeders' worthy of that title work with or support rescue.

You have made a contract, verbal though it may be. Do the right thing and honour it.  To do otherwise shows a huge lack of integrity

I have no idea what age these pups are, I don't think it's been mentioned. But what about this ... the pup has been booked through seeing pictures only (I think I'm right?) and not having met it in person and only with verbal description.

If this is a nice family home, what if this pup at 6 weeks turns out to be a really pushy, strong dog with a strong will? Would that still be the ideal pup for a nice family home, with maybe not a lot of experience of 'strong' dogs? Just a scenario as I've no idea what breed cracar has nor what age the pups are. But this is one reason why I do not allow selection (which is mainly done by me) before 6 weeks. For me a pushy, strong willed dog is my absolute ideal!! I've got 3 girls who are exactly this :-O so just as well. However, I would not want one with this sort of character to go to a family home, maybe with young children and possibly little experience. I would far prefer to say to them that no, there is a pup that is far more suited to them with the right personality (if there wasn't the pup for them in that litter, then that's what they would be told - I wouldn't send a shy, retiring pup - not that I've actually seen any of those in my lines! - to a strong work home nor a pushy worky pup to a quiet home).

I don't believe cracar isn't saying the family wont get a pup, it's just that it might not be the one they've received pictures of.

what do you think breeders breed for I think the answer is quite clear.  Money

Oh dear, I wish you'd posted this as the reason breeders breed some months ago. I've done it all wrong :-( ... my pups were subsidised to the tune of .... well HUGE amounts :-(

PS this post is not meant as a dig at anyone, I don't think it comes across like that, just putting across my four penneth worth (or whatever the phrase is)!! :-)

This is a forum/site for people who show dogs

Oh heck is it? I don't show :-( Though I'd quite like to have a go ... I reckon we could give some of those show dogs a run for their money ;-)  ;-) Ring craft classes anyone?

> This is a forum/site for people who show dogs
>
>

I think one would say 'champdogs' refers to quality in whatever field of canine endeavour ;)

'champdogs' refers to quality

Oh yes, definitely go along with that one ... I'll stay then!

I don't show either although I do work one of my dogs, a rescue dog at that. I too believe that it refers to quality - quality of ownership and all that entails whatever sphere of dog ownership one is involved in be it showing, working or as a much loved pet that does neither of those activities :-)

To be fair I do not think it matters what activity you undertake with your dogs this is a forum for people who have the best interests of their dogs at heart, that does not mean however that one should slag off or criticize a form of canine activity that you obviously know nothing about and the same goes for breeding and breeders if you don't know ask and have the courtesy to believe those you give their time to answer.

EDIT: to say I just clicked on reply this is not a comment to anyone person it is a reply to those who are unable to look beyond there own hard held ideas, ideas that may or not be valid but should be open to question.