I have a fat lab piggie dog,she is from show stock,no matter how I try I cant get the weight off her,however she is a wonderful dog excellent temprement,on walks she is at my side andwill not run after balls ect she just looks up at me with her lovely hazel eyes.My other lab is from traditional stock shown in the summer and worked in the winter,the vet says she is perfect not to lean nice brisket deep brisket,at least she does run and play not like my Annie.
Sheila

They are all lovely labs, and I'm sure none of us meant to suggest otherwise, just the showing angle that some show people put weight on their dog on purpose, because with this breed there is a better chance of winning perhaps, it is favoured :(

Your labs look lovely Sheila. ;)

Hi Sian, I love to see a nice bonny gentleman labs,but on my walks I see very skinny ones labs shouldnt be like that,however when at crufts and other shows I have only seen the odd few overweight ones,and must ageree some of them do have rather short legs.Just had the blacks out for a walk in pooring rain and miss piggy is full strech on the bed with tom kitten,me going for a brew.

Sheila xx

> Just had the blacks out for a walk in pooring rain and miss piggy is full strech on the bed with tom kitten,me going for a brew.
>
>

I've just come back myself drenched thru I am, my hair is dripping all over the keyboard not a good look. lol

xx

>however when at crufts and other shows I have only seen the odd few overweight ones,

They must have slimmed down dramatically then, because when I last went to Crufts on gundog day you could count the ones of a healthy weight on one hand.

Labs should be lean and fit enough to clear a five-barred gate with a pheasant in their mouths.

> Labs should be lean and fit enough to clear a five-barred gate with a pheasant in their mouths.

But more likely pheasant in belly, dog sitting other side of gate waiting for owner to hike him over.lol

> GR's that's another post LOL.  Think Golden should be dropped from the name.  How many golden Golden's do you see these days? They are white or cream.

I started seeing white/cream ones about 25 yrs ago, at a training club I used to go to. I'm not a GR connoisseur particularly, but last year I met a really Golden-coloured one from a Scottish working strain and just thought: wow.

Many times I have been in the ring and the judge has said afterwards when u first entered the ring I thought the dogs were fat but getting my hands on them not an ounce of fat. Sometimes I take pics of my labs and they look to be carrying extra weight but they aren't. My labs are very heavy and many will say could not work, I have trained them for working tests in the past and they have done well, they looked huge against the workers but they had fun and 7th place for a first time was excellent I thought. They climb up and down the mountain daily and swim etc and are generally fit and healthy but because they are very well boned they wouldn't be everyones cup of tea.

When I first started showing 15 years ago many of the labs were fat and people would say they had to be that way to win but I have found over the years the labs have slimmed down. I personally have my dogs how I like them and if the judge don't like it thats their problem we will still have had a fun day out.

If I feel they are getting overweight (not other people) they get put on a diet!!!

My girls weigh about 36kgs and are not fat.

> My girls weigh about 36kgs and are not fat.

To me that sounds heavy.  My male LM doesn't weigh that and he is very heavy boned and he's about 24.5-25 inches tall.   My friends Hovawart weighs 39kg and she's a very tall bitch & slightly overweight!

ChristineW the line is very big but even most of my friends labs are around 34kgs
My 11 yr old male who lives with my parents weighs 38kgs

The weight thing is a bit of a misnomer though, as I posted earlier, I have a bitch who I think is medium boned, although possibly light boned for show tastes, just under 24" high at the shoulder and I count her as overweight at 32kgs and will be putting her on a diet.  I do think weight can be very subjective as well, my vet and the receptionist were trying to persuade me that because Indie's slim and fit compared to the majority of Labs and other pet dogs they see, that she's not overweight, but actually, although she's not overweight, she isn't fit for purpose either. 

WOW I have a breed that is around the same height as a Lab and they are much lighter than that.  THat weight would be almost double some of my breed!  No wonder Lab's look very overweight to me.

Fit for purpose, or fat for purpose!  A Labrador is a Gundog, bred for a specific purpose, as all breeds originally were. Whether they still play a part in those functions, health is a huge issue.. and putting it simply, an overweight dog is an unhealthy dog...

Sadly, Labradors over the last 50 years, have become smaller, shorted in leg, stockier and more heavily boned.  and in general terms have deviated from the original written standard.   A huge split it the breed has left it wanting for the most part, and long gone are the real gems, Dual Ch Banchory Bolo, Sandlyland Tan & Tandy (who were two of the dogs reputed to have been credited with the split)  and my favourite of all time (and from whom all my dogs are descended) Follytower Merrybrook Black Stormer.   http://labradornet.com/follytowermerrybrookblackstormer.jpg,

All my girls are fit for function, and most are working in the field (those who have the brain :-) ) and all have been well placed in the showring.  Their weights vary greatly.   One girl sits comfortably at 28kilos, yet looks much heavier than another who looks positively anorexic at 30kg... However.. the only girl that can clear a 5ft dry staine dyke and glides over a barbed wire fence with ease, sat at 37kg as her working weight.. she was solid muscle.. She is now retired from both field and showring, and sits comfortably at 33kilos, but any lighter than this weight, her ribs and pin bones stick through skin.  I do however understand where people's perception of weight and fitness cross over.. Tia's 1st year in the field she dropped weight, and The Lab club Champ show was in early April.. I did not 'fatten' her up for the show, and at least 3 comments were made about her being too thin (she was 37kilos) and I should withdraw her... I didn't withdraw and in fact she was in for the challenge for the RCC...   Weight is not neccessarily fat.. Tia was 37kilos, and in perfect hard condition..

I have two adult males, one looks fat at 35kilos, and the other is around 37kilos.. but looks a lot leaner than the other boy

My dear sweet old Emma on the other hand, positively weebled at 29kilos lol

1 kilo on Tia went unnoticed.. 1 kilo on Emma made her look obese.. yet there were 9 kilos of a difference between them...

> [url=http://labradornet.com/follytowermerrybrookblackstormer.jpg," rel=nofollow]

Now that's a treat from dogs tonight. lol thanks Kayc

Good to hear from someone with knowledge and experience!  Just to put you on the spot, if you don't mind, why is the perception there still. that fat equals success in the show ring, and, as I said when I started the thread, not me, but from someone with many years experience in the breed? 

I'd also be interested to hear your opinions on coat colour, and the 'fault' that my bitch has in being pale liver.  Was discussing this with someone else this evening, and it just seems unrealistic to count a pale liver coat as a fault, against a dark liver coat, when you don't know genetically what each may carry.  In the same instance, you can't discriminate against black or yellow dogs that may carry a dilute gene, hope that makes sense? 

> I'd also be interested to hear your opinions on coat colour, and the 'fault' that my bitch has in being pale liver.  Was discussing this with someone else this evening, and it just seems unrealistic to count a pale liver coat as a fault, against a dark liver coat, when you don't know genetically what each may carry.  In the same instance, you can't discriminate against black or yellow dogs that may carry a dilute gene, hope that makes sense? 

Pale liver is not a fault, nor is it dilute. The dilution comes in the form of pigmentation... If the pale liver dog has good pigmentation, then he is as of good a quality (assuming all other conformation points meet the requirments) as that of a dark/er liver... The breed standard does states Liver/Chocolate as a colour, there is no definition of shade, therefore ALL shades of liver meet the conformation standard... However, and it is a big however.. you tend to find that a lighter shade of liver also come with a lighter eye colouring (not always) and this is what deviates from the standard... lighter livers can have a tendency to have a paler brown, yellow, or even green eyes..

the breed standard states eye colour, and this applies to all three colours of the breed.

You also have the human element.. no matter how good a dog is.. you always have personal preference

Thanks for that, my bitch's eye colour is actually nice, not as dark as some Labs, but a nice shade of brown/hazel, and I'm personally happy with her conformation along with other aspects. 

Personal preference is a major influencing factor I feel, in the way some breeds are rewarded for certain aspects, you only have to look at the origins of the American Cocker to realise they came from a very different dog, as lovely as they may be, they are nothing like the dogs they originated from, and although to a lesser extent it does seem to be similar with some breeds that appear to lose their way. 

> Just to put you on the spot, if you don't mind, why is the perception there still. that fat equals success in the show ring, and, as I said when I started the thread, not me, but from someone with many years experience in the breed? 
>
>

I did reply to this too, but sending seemed to have deleted in.. my laptop has been playing up...

Fat does not equal success, but sadly most of the best dogs out in the ring conformation wise, are possibly heavier that those who 'look better' if that makes sense... Hands on tells a very different story... I cannot speak for other judges, sometimes I raise my eyebrows at the results lol...

A couple of years ago I had an appointment judging Labs, Flatcoats and Goldens... wonder entry of Goldens, and a difficult choice, my BOB went on to take G1 and also got her Sh Cm that day.. and was also an Irish Ch...

I then judge the Flatcoats... sadly, that day, I had no choice but to place a very raw 6month old pup as BOB... She was lovely, but the sadness came from the   a) lack of quality in the other entries,   and b) the weights... these, as far as I am concerned as working gundogs who can be shown.. not showdogs.

then came my Labs... I threw out one of the top breeders in her 1st class... beautiful dogs, but I could not see any layback of shoulder for the fat surrounding them... and hands on, I had difficulty feeling the outline... If you can;t see it, and can't feel it, you can't judge it

The dog whole got my BOB was a heavy stocky boy, and who possibly, could have been mistaken for being fatter, by a layperson, was solid muscle, and in full thick coat.   I found out later that he was very much a dual purpose working gundog and had been out picking up the day before...(he also took G4)

what we see and what we perceive can be very misleading

Bum, really interesting and I'm desperate to get off for some kip, but why, if you felt there wasn't the quality of dogs entered, place them?  Surely you could reserve places in that sort of instance? 

Good to hear it from the horse's mouth so to speak, and nice on this forum that people aren't castigated (or worse) for asking the questions. 

Please excuse ALL my spelling errors... laptop is on a go slow and sentences are catching up long after I have written them.. and not sure why the errors are creeping in.. apart from deleting over 250virus's this evening..

I can spell... onist :-)

Chuckling away, off to get a wee night cap and await your response!  Spelling errors or not!

> but why, if you felt there wasn't the quality of dogs entered, place them?

They did comply to the standard, just not good enough to take 1st place.   some out of  coat, eye colour a little lighter etc.. nothing drastic, but the weights were, for me, the deciding factor.

Interesting, because looking at field trials, they withold awards much more stringently it appears, not a criticism of either side, just seems to be different.

Kay, when I click on that link I get a holiday rental website!

I reckon Ch Kinley Skipper is well-proportioned.

There are some fantastic photos on this site.

Same here JG, that's an unusual looking Lab LOL

The last picture, of the liver lab, looks appalling IMO.

I reckon Ch Kinley Skipper is well-proportioned.

There are some fantastic photos on this site.

thanks for the link, some lovely photos :)

My Sadie is very true to type,and she is from traditional stock,a big girl she is,a strong swimmer and could clear six foot fences no problem when young,and she did.

Sheila

>Kay, when I click on that link I get a holiday rental website! <img alt="eek" src="/images/eek.gif" />

delete the comma at the end and it work correctly

Agreed JG. The other thing I've noticed is the size of heads in the breed. The ones on the links look good. and some in the show ring I like too.

The show dogs in general seem to have a larger wider head and the working dogs seemed to of got a lot slimmer in the head. Why?
What is the correct head shape?

The breed standard says the skull should be 'broad', I asked the question on another forum about what this actually means, unfortunately on that particular forum some folk just like to take the opportunity when you ask questions to make snide remarks about your dogs; I feel (and I am aware of my inexperience in commenting, but find it an interesting subject) that it should be in proportion to the rest of the dog.  Some Labs I see have more of the look of a Newfoundland or Rottweiler to my eye, but there's no doubting they have a broad skull, but how broad is too broad, how long before the broadness of the skull means it doesn't resemble a Labrador? 

> The breed standard says the skull should be 'broad'

In which case many working Lab's fail to meet the breed standard as they are very very slim in head. Had a friend who asked me what type of dog it was, pointing to 2 black Lab's. I knew that they were working stock, but they start to loose the Lab look and end up more cross breed looking.

Does the size of the head make any difference in the working field? Is there a reason for slimming them down even more?

I know quite a few working Labs with broad skulls, just not as broad as some of the show dogs, but there's no guidance as to which is correct, when do you start saying actually, that's too broad, and that's not broad enough?

I particularly like this dog as an example, Contender Cassanova, on the stud dog page.....

http://www.contendergundogs.co.uk/#

I also admire Graham Roberts dogs at Riversway, I know a few people who have used Raven, he is a stunning dog.....

http://www.riverswaygundogs.co.uk/

Talking Riversway dogs, our current Lab is sired by Bosun. Do like Raven, do prefer black Lab's over all. Didn't even know that there was a website to this affix, off to have a nosey now :-)

sorry about the link, I did wonder, and assumed it was  my laptop playing up...

The last chocolate JG, is possibly responsible for 80% of todays chocolate Labs, Boothgates Headliner was used prolifically at stud. at the time where chocolate became popular.

Sadly I won't be able to continue with the conversation.. Laptop is off to the shop this afternoon :-(

Oh no!!!  I've really enjoyed your input, let's hope by the time you get your laptop back, the topic will still be being discussed. 

The question is maybe:

1) are Labradors too fat (which some are but hopefully not for much longer if judges abide by KC dictates),

and

2) are Labradors too heavily built?

Very good point Barbara, looking forward to some informed responses on that one, right now, I have to go get the dogs out! 

Yes the first three of my girls come down from boothgates headliner. They were however not in anyway heavy boned or had/ have excessive wide heads. Moose my oldest girl is a lovely looking  dog and Kay has seen her and said she wasn't a bad example at all. Puds is from drakeshead lines and is more working type although does have some substance. Betty however is true working  type and is very athletic but would be laughed out the ring if she had been shown ! I do prefer dual ability rather than just show or working and if I  do ever get round to showing that is what I would aim at

>I particularly like this dog as an example, Contender Cassanova, on the stud dog page.....

I prefer Druimmuir Drake of Contender from that page; his muzzle is much 'cleaner'.

This is a few photos of all five girls I have had and they are all very different in looks.

This is Mars my first girl who was from half American Lines on then right then Min who who is on the left (daughter of Mars)

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/moosesmummy/IMG_0015.jpg

This in Min in action (in a veteran class at a fun dog show)

http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/moosesmummy/?action=view&current=IMG_0016.jpg&newest=1
She doesn't look at all heavy boned or have an excesssive wide or broad head ?

http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/moosesmummy/?action=view&current=IMG_0001-1.jpg&newest=1

This a head shot which shows this off a bit better

This is Moose and although she looks very short legged and quite stocky she isn't in real life (blame the photograher ! )

http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/moosesmummy/?action=view&current=Newcamera062.jpg&newest=1

This is Puds (non Boothgates Headliner)

http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/moosesmummy/?action=view&current=Newcamera076.jpg&newest=1

And lastly Betty (excuse her silly ears) (non Boothgates Headliner)

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/moosesmummy/BettyonhersecondBirthday.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m80/Oshkar_2006/Bella-1.jpg
Our old working-type labrador.; she was a bit long in the body but that never hindered her agility. Trying to find another one like her is proving very difficult.

Some lovely looking Labs, I'm just trying to find a few photos of mine to give an idea of their shape......

These are Indie left, and Tau right, head on
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc182/JoanneEl/Champdogs/05TheGirls.jpg

Me training Tau, she's got a bit of sunbleached coat left over the top of her loin here, she is one solid colour now that's moulted out ;)
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc182/JoanneEl/Champdogs/06LiningUp.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc182/JoanneEl/Champdogs/07Outrun.jpg

And this is Indie, the biggest, and friendliest socialisation aid around, the pup belongs to someone who asked for help finding a Lab from a good breeder!
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc182/JoanneEl/Champdogs/IMG_4589.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc182/JoanneEl/Champdogs/11SashaJumpIndie.jpg

Hope that works!

> [url=http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc182/JoanneEl/Champdogs/06LiningUp.jpg" rel=nofollow]>

Now I would say that's a fine specimen there, perfect top lines, weight spot on, lovely hair colouring, natural stance, lovely friendly nature.
A good all rounder in my opinion. :) :)

Oh and the dog, she doesn't look half bad either. ;)

Indie is very much like Min was in the body.
I must admit though the shows I have gone to I have wlaked along the benches and did a like, dislike on the Labs there and the ones I did like were very much like the dual purpose ones as the broad stocky show types to me do not do anythuing for me.

Thanks Sian, she's not bad at all, and is certainly fit for purpose ;)  

LJS, I think I have similar tastes to you, I like what I think is medium boned, rather than heavy looking, and I like my Labs lean and fit, much as the photos you posted. 

Not sure if you can open this album, but this is Bentley who had now passed on, he was not only a great dog but I felt a pretty good all round Lab. I prefer him(standard wise) to what we've got now as I feel he meets the breed standard that much better.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?aid=15144&id=685455612

> Thanks Sian, she's not bad at all, and is certainly fit for purpose ;-)&nbsp;&nbsp;

Yeah I can see that, she wouldn't have a problem clearing them 5 bar gates. ;)

I've found this thread very interesting... I'm relatively new to the world of Labs, but I've been following the show scene as a spectator for the last 6 years.  I think judges are favouring 'fitter' dogs now far more than they were 6 years ago.  But of course I'm no expert, and haven't done a great deal of exhibiting.  Some of the older pictures of Labs are stunning, but rightly or wrongly they are quite a departure from what would get placed today.  I'd be interested to hear what you lot think of this boy with regards to the above comments:

http://www.retrievers.ru/Timantti_SOlid_Davidson_Album.htm

In my opinion he is very fit, and quite chunky.  But his head... I personally think it is stunning, but maybe this is exactly what you are talking about with the wider heads...