So everybody who bought a healthy pedigree dog and have met all the necessary requirements (for registering the kennel name and getting breeding permition for their dogs by showing them at least once and doing the medical testes required for the breed) can breed their dog.

That is seriously scary. :( I'm all for health testing being mandatory, but I don't want Joe Bloggs down the road with their first pet dog that they've shown once to breed a litter just because they CAN. There's far too much of that going on here, but at least we can safeguard our pups somewhat by endorsing them.

>the puppies when young would look very similar and it would not be hard for me to sell them to an inexperienced buyer as pure bred black minis.

And how would they be tested for purity under another system?

"Eh? Can you explain what you mean please, because that doesn't make sense."

Well, that's and explanation I heard from some English breeders that they worked really hard on their "lines" and would not allow their dogs "gene pool" to be used for breeding outside their kennel and without their supervision and approval and that's why they always endorse their dogs and leave the best once for themselves.

This was a new concept to me as in Europe you can't guard your "genes, lines etc" once you sold the puppy it's the owners and the clubs decision if/when/who with to breed it.

Most breeders build a friendship with the owners of their promising puppies of course and can give advice but they can't enforce anything.

Ok, as an example, I have two KC Reg black mini schnauzers (dog and a bitch) but my black mini schnauzer bitch accidentally mates with the neighbour's scotch terrier... the puppies when young would look very similar and it would not be hard for me to sell them to an inexperienced buyer as pure bred black minis.

I then apply for pedigrees on line and claim that my dog schnauzer is the father. KC then gives me pedigrees no questions asked and without seeing the puppies, I sell all the puppies to pet homes and they are never shown...

And If I had two Malinois and one Tervueren and the Tervueren accidentally mated with one of the Malinois, then when my puppies were visited and I said they were the results of the two Malinois being mated, the person who inspected the litter would NOT be able to tell any different as the pups would all be shortcoated and look exactly as Malinois. So what use was it in that case? The pups would still not be from a permitted purebred mating but only honesty or DNA could tell.

"And how would they be tested for purity under another system?"

Well since you have to show the puppies to an expert before they get pedigrees, although there is still not a 100% guarantee he/she would pick up they are cross breeds, but there is much more chance for that to happened than under the UK system, IMHO + a lot of breeders just wont risk it in the first place...

>in Europe you can't guard your "genes, lines etc" once you sold the puppy it's the owners and the clubs decision if/when/who with to breed it.

Much the same as here. The endorsements are placed to prevent anyone breeding willy-nilly from animals that are unsuitable for breeding from. For a club to have any say about which dogs can be mated to which bitches is unthinkable, because, if sensible, they would err on the side of caution and the default position would be "No", thus limiting the gene pool further.

>Most breeders build a friendship with the owners of their promising puppies of course and can give advice but they can't enforce anything.

That's a shame. I've known of an instance where a breeder heard that an individual puppy sold (luckily all were sold with endorsements) had developed an untestable, but possible inherited, medical condition. Luckily the existence of the endorsements meant that the other owners, if they'd wanted to, couldn't register any puppies they themselves bred.

And what if there is an accidental mating litterbrother to littersister? Those pups will be purebred but not elegible for registration but again just a visual inspection could never tell that. I don't think a visual inspection will make much difference at all in the case of people determined to cheat.

I can come up with plenty more scenarios as well. An unscrupulous breeder has a stunning Cavalier dog, the best they've ever bred, but it develops a heart murmur aged just 3. I don't know about the rest of the FCI but in Sweden this would mean it could not be bred from. So the breeder uses this dog for breeding but claims a different dog was used, one not as good looking but with a better heart. Again only DNA could prove it. You cannot tell future health of puppies by looking at the puppies, nor can you tell their breed in all cases. There are plenty of crosses that would give puppies that looked just like one breed and may not show any slight differences until later in life.

Ok, you defeated me :)

Both systems have flaws and don't guarantee anything :))

IMHO, I think the ideal scenario would be for the UK accept FCI's best practices but to keep KC's strict health checks which are better than on the mainland at the moment, but I don't think it is going to happened any tome soon :)

To be hones there are those that will always do their best when breeding and those who will short cut, and if registries put in more restrictions then those people will simply breed unregistered stock which these days often cost as much.

it really comes down to buyers being better educated and wanting not just registration but proof of health testing and some sort of record of achievements of the parents and to know why a breeder has bred.

That is quite easy to do if you know what it is you want.

I would have nothing to do with a  breeder that did not health test,a nd show that there was a reason for breeding their litter, and be Happy to explain it to me,a nd I would expect that the parents had been shown with at least middling results,a nd if appropriate been worked.  If one of the parents hadn't then I would want a reasoned answer for why not.

For example my late mentor had both her entire bitches come down with Pyometra,a nd her last litter was out of an unshown (but health tested bitch) owned by her niece who had no interest in showing.  If she had been shown she would probably have done well, and one of her sons won the Cc as a puppy under a Scandinavian specialist.

Exactly, both systems have plus and minus points and like I said before there are FCI rules I'd love to see here -just not all. :) Now as a Swede living in England (half my life here, half in Sweden) I am often asked which country I prefer and I always say I'd like to have a mixture of both.

> To be hones there are those that will always do their best when breeding and those who will short cut, and if registries put in more restrictions then those people will simply breed unregistered stock which these days often cost as much.
>
> it really comes down to buyers being better educated and wanting not just registration but proof of health testing and some sort of record of achievements of the parents and to know why a breeder has bred.
>

Yes, GP needs to be better educated but in my opinion KC should do something to differiante registered stock from unregistered to make worth having a registered puppy- e.g. mandatory health testing, training of breeders etc..
This would make it little easier for the GP to understand why registered puppy is what they want even if it is to be "just a pet".
People do not seem to understand why they should have a registered dog if they are just getting a pet(it is just a piece of paper after all).
To be honest that piece of paper could be the only difference if the registered puppy comes from not health tested parents from a person that does no doggy activities such as showing/working etc?

It would be interesting to see statistic of how many litters KC registers have health tested parents.
Good breeders will test and breeders who do not bother should be differentiated from these people, easiest way to do it would be not to register their stock and start advertising the fact why registered puppy is the "best puppy" and does give you the best possible chance to have a healthy companion.
Point out why pure bred litter is not registered e.g parents are not tested, bitch used as a breeding machine etc...
In Finland most people know not to touch an unregistered pure bred dog because it is almost general knowledge there must be something dodgy going on why it is not registered.

You have given a prime example of why the KC needs to be dragged into the 21st century with DNA profiling compulsory for both parents and offspring BEFORE registration.  No DNA profile No papers - simple. 

The KC is so arrogant to assume that the UK Ch title is the only one worth putting to paper, what a joke.  And for those who call the FCI Ch titles cheap let me tell you we have Ch's here on 3 free tickets, in spades, not just cheap but free.  We know who is going to get the breed at Crufts in 2012 already, a dog that has yet to win even a PG class at nearly 4 yrs old.  For my own breed the UK title is not respected at all by most foreign breeders now, once yes, now no. 

As a judge both in the UK and internationally the FCI system when applied correctly (and most judges do) will NOT make cheap Ch's, in fact the opposite.  And as far as temperament goes the dogs I see in the UK backing off judges, barking at judges, snapping at judges, being held in an arm lock by the handler so the judge can touch the dog under FCI rules that dog would be out of the ring in a flash.  Just come back from 2 FCI shows exhibiting and saw in several breeds under 4 dif judges dogs dismissed without question for reluctance to be handled and nipping at the judge, one had been handled once but when the judge went to go over it again before placings in the line up it snapped, and out it went.

The KC does accept and include overseas titles on a dogs records on it's database, just not the international one.  so you can add French Ch, Belgian Ch etc.

I would say the AKC (USA) is arrogant as it doesn't include nay but it's own on a dogs records.  Doesn't stop owners advertising them or including them on pedigrees.

Not all overseas titles, it only accepts 2 country titles on 2 of mine, Swe & Fin, the rest including the Int ones it will not and those include the dog's country of origin (breed) where the best examples of the breed in the world are still found!

AKC - on my AKC registrations for 2 imports it has their Int / Mex/ Can / Am titles but when registering the dogs with the UK KC they only put down the Am Ch one.  I have a dog who has working as well as Deu conformation titles but the KC here only will show the conformation one.  Great thinking eh for a working hound!!!

This may seem a bit of a daft question.. when a dog is brought into the UK and registered here having be bred abroad does it remain registered with the previous original country in addition to the UK and can it be in one name and joint names with the other?

Thought one of you will have practiced this regularly :-)

>when a dog is brought into the UK and registered here having be bred abroad does it remain registered with the previous original country in addition to the UK and can it be in one name and joint names with the other?

Not sure about the country bit (my instinct would say that a dog can't be unregistered from its original registry) but I know that it would be registered in the UK in the exact same name that it was already registered with abroad - even if that name is already allocated to a UK dog.

I thought that about still being registered with original country just purely because I can't see the kennel club going to any expense or in time to tell anyone and I can tell from the import forms that it must firstly be put into the name on the export pedigree or you need a transfer of ownership from the originating country BUT I guess what I'm asking (the long way for me as usual LOL) is once registered in the then the normal transfer can be done say into joint names.

Country of origin is Poland but it seems very complicated to transfer a dog into joint names in Poland temporarily.   From what I have been told when they register pups at birth they seem to put straight into new owners name. Mind you it doesny help it is registered in Poland and now in Spain registered under two names but original export pedigree is in one namr although the dog is owned by one in Poland and one in Spain.      All above board just seems the Spainish Kennel just see not as tight with the rules or so it would seem.

What we want to do in the simplest way possible is bring the  dog here and put  in joint names whilst he is here.  

Replying from my phone so will be loads of typos LOL

I wonder can anyone help. I show my Dog in Italy , he has 1 CACIB 2 res/CACIB, 1 CAC, ! Group 9 win. I am uk based. What do I need to make him an Italian Beauty CH/ or INT/ CH or Italian CH. I would welcome some help.

Each country has it's own rules for making up a champion, (so their Kennel clubs will need contacting) but to be an FCI Int ch a dog needs 4 CACIB's in 3 countries (not sure if it is 3 or 4 different judges), and there must be over a year and a day between the first and last qualifying award,a dn CACIB's cannot be won by a dog under 15 months.

My male sired an Italian Champion and she needed to win 6 CAC's, 2 from National Shows, 2 from International Shows, 2 from Breed Club Speciality Shows under at least five different judges. For the Inter title it is just like Brainless has said and that 3 of the CACIB's must be won under at least 3 different judges.

I agreee wholeheartedly with making breed specific health tests compulsory.
But I have reservations regarding having to show a dog once to verify that it is a suitable specimen. I live in a fairly remote part of Northern Scotland. Dog shows are somewhat thin on the ground up here and would require a lot of planning - other livestock to feed and care for. as well as considerable expense - much petrol and possible overnight stays.
Even getting eye tests done is difficult as the nearest qualified vet is 150 miles away. he does come to our nearest city  every month or two, but even getting there is quite a trek and appointments are difficult to get.
I'm not complaining because I live here from choice, the advantages outway the problems. I'm just pointing out that while it might be a fairly minor matter taking your dog to a show if you live in central England, it is not that simple for all of us.

In France they confirm the breeds at different ages depending on maturity. Although not foolproof, you can confirm your dog at a dog show/working test or even visit a judge. It does seem to stop some dogs being bred from that have failed confirmation due to bad teeth or bad coats as examples. My breed is confirmed at 12 months, once they have been seen and the paperwork signed then if resident in France would get their full pedigree and the puppies registered with the French Kennel Club, and the process starts again, pups confirmed at 12 months.
I have to admit, I like the way it works but it does cost more.

Not being funny but I don't think the system of "confirmation" on the continent is really that reliable - it's still relying on objectivity from judges and unfortunately this is not always the case... I guess there are no perfect system but I do think making health testing an important part of breeding is important. JMHO

A dog that is badly marked may be suitable for breeding but would not win in the ring.

Yes, I know dogs that have failed confirmation but next day win at shows but they still cannot be bred until they get a full pedigree.
Nothing is foolproof, but confirmation does stop  some dogs being bred

Maybe the breed clubs should be more responsible and process the paperwork for registering.
If the breed Club refused to submit paperwork for dogs that didn't undergo health checks prior to breeding, that would stop litters being registered. from unfit stock.
The breed club would charge for the service, thus money going directly back into the breed rather than to the Kennel Club.

Problem is if it was introduced in the UK some breeds would suffer because of a strangle hold within the ranks of a small group of breeders.  Who of course are also judges and if on a panel for evaluation of breeding potential would "fail" dogs from outside kennels or imports just because they do not want new blood.