> At the beginning of each show it says that people should not attempt any of the exercises shown without prior consultation of a professional... It is even written on there. If people still try it then it's their own problem.

The trouble is, it's not their own problem. It becomes the problem of other trainers who have to undo any damage. It becomes the problem of innocent dogs in the park, or innocent people, who may be attacked because the owner has followed dodgy advice from a TV show, despite the on-screen disclaimer. It becomes the problem of rescues, who may end up with a dog handed in as unmanageable. It becomes the problem of vets who have to put down a dog because of behavioural issues.

Wouldn't it be better all round if the show wasn't on our screens at all? I'm sure the third parties above who deal with the fallout agree.

> I do see why people try to copy this as it only shows successful treatments and not how many unsuccessful attempts there were prior the successful one.

That's why it's so dangerous and the programmes shouldn't be screened.

>I'm sure the third parties above who deal with the fallout agree.

Absolutely. It's heart-breaking to hold a young, healthy dog while it's put to sleep because its owner decided to copy what he saw on the TV and got badly bitten.

> http://www.amazon.com/Illusion-Collar-Leash-Cesar-Millan/dp/B0013UZV2I

I was not aware that dogs were into sadomasicism.
There is a dog where we walk who wears one of these. Whether its the collar or just his general demenour i don't know but he seems unable to lift his head up properley when wearng it. . . . poor thing.
I have no interest in Mr Milan after watching an episode of his programme where he physically wrestled an obviously fear aggresive dog into submision. It was heartbreaking to see the look on the poor dogs face.

Each to thier own though.

Penster that disclaimer has only been put on the show fairly recently due to the number of people who had had problems trying to claim.  He's got some pretty good legal people I think.

I;ve even heard of vets who have done the putting down  on the floor in the CM fashion in my breed and nearly ruined the poor dogs, one such ended up being rehomed, thankfully to a home now where he adores people and has no problems at all, but supposedly he was agressive.

If Cesar Milan bumped into me in the street I wouldn't have a clue who he is as I have no interest in the man at all but that collar looks horrific and I am surprised Briedog that your Flatcoats would tolerate such a contraption.  All the Flatties (Bar one) I know are great happy go lucky dogs, to make a dog wear that would be totally uncomfortable and make a dog feel miserable.

at no time are my fcr discomfort by this collar.

i have owned dogs over 40 years and would put any pain on my dogs.

the is fit well on my dog no different from a rope lead,

have YOU  try one of this leads, NO I GUESS BY THE WAY YOU ARE STATING BY YOUR POST.  ANY ONE THAT KNOW MY DOGS KNOWS THAT THEY ARE HAPPY OUT GOING FCR,BRIE CHASE,AND PAGAN.

So is any of CM's fans going to answer the question I keep asking: why use harsh methods when there are kind ones that work as well and in most cases better? WHY? Is it some sort of enjoyment in proving you're bigger and stronger than a dog? I mean, it's like going to the dentist and opting to have extensive work carried out without anaesthetic; why go for the nasty option when there is no need? 30, 40 years ago there WERE no training alternatives known, now there is, so again -why? I honestly don't get it.

> have YOU  try one of this leads, NO I GUESS BY THE WAY YOU ARE STATING BY YOUR POST.

No, never would and no need. Have done load of positive reward based training with mine, put the hours in.
Oh let's just repeat this....PUT THE HOURS IN. it's work.

And if that hadn't worked there's other kinder options than jumping on the bandwagon of a TV presenter who still maintains he is not a trainer. Why take advice from someone who keeps on saying he is emphatically not a trainer????  Look up the Oxford Dictionary definition of a trainer - it's one who modifies learning or behaviour... in any way.

Course he's a flipping trainer, his books are about training, he sells a "training collar" ffs.... difference is, his getout if anything goes wrong is "well hell I am not a trainer".

Wake up, he's no more than a travelling snake oil salesman who makes a lot out of the TV companies via entertainment, but when things get gritty he's the first to say, well, I am not a trainer.... and there's a disclaimer....

If he's not a trainer the why the heck are you using his collar? It's like buying a JML gadget!!!!

> have YOU  try one of this leads

I've got no reason to put this on my dog's.  They are well behaved off lead or on lead and responsive to my voice telling them when I want them to stay, come etc.

>I've got no reason to put this on my dog's.

Of course not. A properly reared and trained dog wouldn't need any instrument of torture to restrain it.

not being funny but you said the owner decided to copy what he saw he got bitten then thats his fault for not having contacted the right ppl to help train his dog every show says you need a QUALIFIED trainer to help. you have the right to your own opinions like every one else but in one of the dog mags the had cm help wiv gsd who would attack the owners wheelbarrow she wrote for the mag and was pleased with wat cm had achieved at the end of the day if you havent seen it for your own eyes then you still have your own opinions.briedog hope you had a wonderful day and am so jealous as would love to see it wiv my own eyes :)

>you said the owner decided to copy what he saw he got bitten then thats his fault for not having contacted the right ppl to help train his dog every show says you need a QUALIFIED trainer to help.

We all know that not everyone is literate. That's why such extreme measures shouldn't be shown on TV.

> Are there any clips online to watch?

Lois - have a look at the links that Marianne has given.  One really upset me.  A German Shepherd, not a cat lover, and bullied into submission by electric shocks.  It ended up whimpering and petrified.  It was a broken dog that I was watching, and I cannot, will not, accept that it is ok to do this. 

The owner was totally the wrong person to own the breed, and may just as well had the animal destroyed in the first place.  I would have loved to give her and CM electric shocks in a bath of water.

I have noticed however, once CM has broken a dog, the self satisfied look makes me want to vomit.

He seems to get a real kick out of it. :-(

I gave up watching CM years ago but I wonder if his more positive messages about exercise ever got through to his viewing public?  Or did the nonsense detract from the 'few' more sensible suggestions he made?

So many of his 'problem' dogs seemed to be caused by unsuitable owners who have no concept that their dog needed exercise and a few simple boundaries.  Some of the owners seemed to 'baby' their dogs to such an extent that it can't have been terribly healthy for the human either.

Frankly CM's extreme methods might have worked better on the inept owners...   :) 

i know what your saying jeangenie but in todays society everyone who hasnt trained there dogs properly or mistreat them just want a quick fix so try it out themselves without regards to anything.

sorry christine not good with(wiv)this typing lark havent had pc to long still think im on mobile lol

Seems he is like Marmite

> Seems he is like Marmite

To my knowledge, Marmite hasn't bitten anyone yet and it hasn't been PTS..... ;)

> I gave up watching CM years ago but I wonder if his more positive messages about exercise ever got through to his viewing public?  Or did the nonsense detract from the 'few' more sensible suggestions he made?

Whoa hoah............ Yes he advises more exercise etc....
So do 99.9% of other dog trainers in the known world. There's nothing you won't learn from him, that you won't learn from a decent APDT or KCGCS trainer.

And just an aside from his Disclaimer..... If he advises people don't try this at home, then does that include all the rollerblading, bicycling with dogs, all his advice about more exercise as well?

Why doesn't he come on at the end of the show and say "Hey! You! Got a problem with your dog? Don't do what I do, don't do what I say, get on to your local APDT/APBC trainer or behaviourist - they are the ones who will help you the best with your own particular dog."

God I would have IMMENSE respect for him if he did that.
He keeps saying he isn't a trainer himself.... so why WHY isn't he recommending people seek out real trainers? I think that's why SO many people think he's so crap, to be honest. He says "Don't copy me!!!! I am not a trainer!!!" but does he help people to find REAL trainers? does he heck!

No wonder he gets everyone's back up!

> It's like buying a JML gadget!!!!

Hey... ever had trouble with your dog? here's the solution! The JML EZY-QUIKFIX Illusion dog collar is what you need! No more pulling on the lead, just buy our collar and you will never need a trainer again!

Only £49.99 in twelve easy instalments of £9.99 over twenty months!
Say bye bye to dog trainers! Say bye bye to a bad dog!

You will never need another collar again!

Disclaimer: Never use this collar without professional advice. Never take your dog out of the house without professional advice.
2nd Disclaimer: Don't ask us where you can find a professional trainer. We aren't trainers. Buy our collar, give us the money & get on with it yourself.
---

Is this any different to using a show lead high behind the ears?
I ask because for years I did obedience and so in the ring have always moved my dogs on a loose lead. I have however been told by a judge to have my collar end higher under the neck and held high which most exhibitors do.
I have tried this at home this week. Tuppence didn't like it for the first 40 seconds but then relaxed and held her head better at which point I used the clicker to reinforce.
I am still unsure though

> Is this any different to using a show lead high behind the ears?

Very different from what I've seen, and what I understand of the illusion collar.
The illusion collar has two collar parts, with a stiff part separating each collar part in between.  i.e. preventing proper movement in the dogs neck?
That's how I've come to understand it anyway.
Having your show lead up behind your dogs ears may be similar, but the dog still has control of it's own neck.
As I said, that's my understanding of the illusion collar, restriction of movement somewhat.

you state stiff part separating the collars.
it not stiff it the same martail as the collar,an  like the ones you buy it pet ay home,

it not stiff

the dog has movement to the neck,

> Is this any different to using a show lead high behind the ears?

>Very different from what I've seen, and what I understand of the illusion collar. The illusion collar has two collar parts, with a stiff part separating each collar part in between.  i.e. preventing proper movement in the dogs neck?

From what I've seen is that he uses a slip leash, I think that was what you were referring to when you say show lead? Or he turns a normal leash upside down and creates a sling by pulling the clip side of the leash through the handle of the leash and this creates a slip leash as well. The Illusion collar is a completely different thing from the slip leash he uses.

I just wondered if it is painful to a dog to have a show lead placed high behind the ears and held upwards as opposed to moving out on a loose lead- Just for my own info really

If there's tension on the lead, yes. If the lead is simply being held straight, then no.

To understand what I mean, take your dog's lead and hold it so that the end just touches the floor. The lead is straight, but not tight. It's the same with a dog's show lead; the dog is trained to move on a loose lead (or should be) because that shows its natural movement, but the handler holds the lead straight from the dog's neck in the same way as the experiment with the floor - the lead is straight (nice and tidy and not distracting) but not tight. The collar part needs to be either high behind the ears or low on the shoulders - halfway along the neck makes the neck look short and stuffy and the shoulders look upright.

The dogs whose owners are actually pulling upwards on the lead (to disguise poor natural movement?) are indeed uncomfortable.

> It's like buying a JML gadget!!!!

Oh come on MsTemeraire you have taken it too far now.  I luuurrrve JML! ;)

forgive me but arent most show collars and leads (especially for small dogs) like that very thin leather/cord and they are shown strung up, cant see much of a difference really , by the way i neither agree or disagree with his methods , each to their own and what works for one doesnt for another

> Oh come on MsTemeraire you have taken it too far now.  I luuurrrve JML! ;-)

Just a giggle - if you're as ancient as I am you'll also remember Ronco!

lol, I have never heard of Ronco.  Just how ancient are you?? ha ha!

forgive me but arent most show collars and leads (especially for small dogs) like that very thin leather/cord and they are shown strung up, cant see much of a difference really

I would say the big difference is a dog is in the showring for a few minutes, and at most once a week, usually less often, not going for an actual walk on a daily basis with that lead.

But also I very much disagree with people who string dogs up in the showring -loose leads are so much nicer. If the dog moves badly then that should be worked on via breeding, if it won't keep its head up, you can easily clicker train that on a loose lead.

How did i miss that?! :-o

Ah the Ronco Buttoneer, how very useful in my bachelor days!

> it not stiff it the same martail as the collar,an  like the ones you buy it pet ay home,
>
> it not stiff

Ok, well I watched a video and have seen several of his programmes where he uses the collar, and it looked stiff to me.
That's why I said in my first post, that it was based on what I had actually seen.
I haven't seen one of the collars in the flesh, so to speak.

> Ah the Ronco Buttoneer, how very useful in my bachelor days!

ROFLMAO!!   :-)  :-)  :-)

Sorry, but that really tickled my fancy.

> but then relaxed and held her head better at which point I used the clicker to reinforce.
>

Ahh!   Sensible training!

:-)

Would not waste my money on the man..

Also most of the dogs he deals with are not normal family pets but are dogs with major problems. Many of the owners have already tried the gentle treats way and failed and without his intervention the dogs would probably be PTS or sent back to the rescue centre

That's not true, most of his cases are dogs that simply have had no exercise or structure in their life, ANY good trainer who works with reward based encouragement , would get better results than he does.

He does not help dogs to over come ANY issues, he shuts them down... and a dog that has been "shut down "and learnt to suppress his emotions , is a dangerous dog!!  because as sure as eggs are eggs those problems will surface again.

But also I very much disagree with people who string dogs up in the showring -loose leads are so much nicer.
Indeed.

Dogs being shown just look so much better when shown on loose leads - there shows the training and the skill.
Show dogs who are strung up look, frankly, flipping awful, poor things. One reason I find it hard to watch Crufts on tv - you always see it.
I don't understand why those who show strung up dogs seem to think it's smart and attractive - it's so not.

Lindsay
x

Re Cesar Millan - firstly, his collars etc do work on an aversive level - this can't be argued with as if they were not aversive, and using negative reinforcement (ie avoid the "discomfort" and get the relief) they wouldn't work. This is fact and can't be argued with :)

Marianne has given good links which should be read, esp. the "answering the fans" one.

I don't like CM methods because yes, dogs have been put to sleep due to owners following his tv programmes. And it's true that many dog trainers and behaviourists are now coming up against far more problems due to his influence, which is depressing. At the end of the day, it's true to say that some dogs are losing their lives to CM methods and this is again fact. Surely anyone who loves dogs must therefore be concerned and upset about this state of affairs?

Lindsay
x

How can anyone say they are dog lovers and then go and support this man? If i saw a random stranger in the street abusing a dog (and yes what he does IS abuse) i certainly wouldn't go up to him and say well done and give him money!
I am actually surprised how many dogs owners would still put their dogs through harsh training methods to get results, i thought we were in the 21st century now!

Briedog,

Im so glad you had a lovely day, how nice of your boys to treat you.

I bet you wished you'd never started this thread, not everyone likes CM and i for one am not a massive fan, but i must say not once have i seen you ask for peoples opinions on him and i feel that this thread YET AGAIN has totally gone off topic, what a shame you cant come on here to share the fact you had a nice day without being jumped on.

It does seem to have gone a bit off on one...it will always be a heated debate I suppose - however I think suggesting that someone is a bad dog owner simply because they see merit in some areas of his training is not on. Also quite a few of these posts are libelous so I'd imagine a moderator should block it...

For my part there are elements of CM's method that are sound...exercise, calming signals, early warning signs of aggression...just because another trainer may have said them also, doesn't make these points any less valid. They are a good ethos to live by and, we all know, his shows have a real following.

If "responsible" owners choose to cherry pick elements of his training e.g. elements of discipline without exercise and reward, they can't then be suprised that Rover seems a bit perturbed!

CM also quite clearly states on both the TV and his books that his preferred lead is a simple slip lead, like many of us use for field work or showing - he's never recommended the use of a prong collar, these have only ever been continued to be used by him when the owner has chosen to start using it before his arrival.

At the end of the day we are all reponsible dog owners...given the very fact that we care enough about our dogs to be on this forum seeking advice...and as such I'm responsible for my dogs heath, well-being and training...not Cesar Milan...anyone who looks to shift the blame back to CM when it goes wrong shouldn't have a dog in the first place.

...If I was told not to bunji jump without a professional present and went ahead and did it anyway with disasterous consequences...that might be considered "my bad"!

...If I was told not to bunji jump without a professional present and went ahead and did it anyway with disasterous consequences...that might be considered "my bad"!

So it would be much better all around to totally forget anything dangerous -and that includes anything CM does. Simple.

I notice nobody STILL has answered my question of just why anyone would choose punishment and force when there are reward based alternatives working as well and better.

I totally agree Marianne...Reward based training is always the best. If I could train everything with my clicker I would...

At the moment I'm struggling with Digs as he's 6.5 stone of dog and he just loves other dogs...so much so you could click away until you're blue in the face he doesn't want food or toy...the other dog is reward enough :/

Say for example Digs is completely focused on another dog, i need to somehow interupt him staring at the other dog - otherwise how will i ever reward him not focusing on the other dog...and round and round I go!

Also I currently use a halti...some people may say that this is 'cruel' as it sits the pressure across his nose...he's pulled me over twice on a normal lead though...

Just to reiterate also...not everything that CM does is punishment based...there's a lot of waiting for Rover to calm down before he's allowed to do things etc, we use no touch, talking or eye contact whilst Digs is over excited...this has stopped him jumping up at people. He now sits and waits for attention...

Dog training is a mine field!

PS I never fancied bunji jumping anyway...

so much so you could click away until you're blue in the face he doesn't want food or toy...the other dog is reward enough :/

But you can TRAIN any dog to enjoy toys or other rewards! And you wouldn't click away until you were blue in the face, as  the reward follows the click which follows the right action, so you don't keep clicking. With the right trainer's help it is perfectly possible for you to teach your dog that YOU are far more fun than other dogs. Sounds like you just need to find that right trainer. :)

> At the moment I'm struggling with Digs as he's 6.5 stone of dog and he just loves other dogs...so much so you could click away until you're blue in the face he doesn't want food or toy...the other dog is reward enough :/
>

REWARD BASED training is the way to go. It's not just about rewards though, you need to set your dog up for success. Waiting untill the dog is so focused on another dog is not helpfull, rewards then have to be a LOT more enticing to use as a lure, so the idea is to pre-emp and start gaining the dogs focus before he gets fixated.

> so I currently use a halti...some people may say that this is 'cruel' as it sits the pressure across his nose...he's pulled me over twice on a normal lead though...

Buster wears a halti, but he has pulled me over while wearing it. When you have a dog the size of Buster (english mastiff), you soon realise that any training aid (lead, halti), is only that - an aid - physically forcing a dog that big to do what you want it to is not going to happen! Training, training and even more training all with lots of praise, treats and patience, there really is nothing better than that :)

I've seen a couple of shows of CMs that contradict everything he normally says. He was at a house to 'rehabilitate' a chi that barked out the window. He did the jab & 'shh' noise - worked a treat. He found that the chis' house-mate, an English Mastiff, had started to copy the bad habbit, so as the mastiff was barking out of the window, CM gave it a jab & did the 'shhh' - the response from the mastiff - zilch, didn't bat an eyelid, he carried on barking, CM may well have not been there! CM went on to say that mastiffs have a different energy, my interpretation of that is basically the mastiff was not intimidated.

Another show, showed how Nazir, a Boerboel (south african mastiff) was rehabilited. However, CM used socialisation and rewards to help him, none of the harsh stuff.

If the soft approach of using reward based trainig is effective on huge, poweful dogs why not use it on ALL dogs? What it boils down to is CM is a bully. Many dogs he can bully for his shows but he comes up against some (well, 2 male mastiffs as far as I've seen) that do not respond to his harsh methods, they will not be bullied and I am sure CM knows what he risks if he tried even harder to intimidate them.

Thanks both - apologies Marianne, I didn't mean that that's what I'd do and appreciate that me clicking in that instance would be completely incorrect...it was more a turn of phrase...should have thought more about how it read.

I have Digs' full attention when other dogs aren't around...I'm just struggling with how to make the jump to another dog being there. As soon as he clocks another dog he goes from (on a scale of 1-10) 2-3 of happy play to BHAM 10...I have to say I've met some not so good dog trainers so am having a break from them for a bit and getting back to enjoying my dog. Will do some more reading up on how to make myself more exciting than other dogs...any shared experiences welcome!

Mastifflover...I have this great vision of teeny CM trying to "tccch" a bull mastiff and mastiff just flicking him away saying "bored of you now". As I said I'm not saying I agree with all of his methods, but I'm saying that he doesn't walk into every house and start smacking dogs...there are some useful points in there also which I think a lot of dog owners would benefit from (not saying anyone on here)...but I overheard someone at work saying her dog misbehaves at training class and chews furniture but she walks him once a week at the weekend...I had to bite my lip and walk away! Some elements of his training have good foundations, and are shared with many other dog trainers around the world...even if he didn't "invent" them it's still a good message to get out there.

If the soft approach of using reward based trainig is effective on huge, poweful dogs why not use it on ALL dogs?

A great quote I love is that as you can clicker train a killer whale, that says a lot -you couldn't possibly force it to do something it didn't want to. :) So yes, why use force on dogs small enough to do it with. Size shouldn't matter LOL.