no reply to anybody just posting to the end...
Maybe something to think about if  people get hit financially(lose their job) is even if you have never insured to insure your pets.
Not judging this man but if he had been out of job for a month I'm sure he would still had money to pay premium for the insurance?
Especially when with many breeds we are not talking about huge amounts to get the basic insurance that would offer at least big part of any bill...

When I was growing up we were had very little money at one point but the dogs insurance was still paid as my mum knew if something did happen, she would have not had the money to pay a big bill. When I say little money: I remember my mum saying lets buy milk as we can then bake bread with some of it, we could not afford to buy both, bread and milk...

My girl got hit by a car resulting to over 6000 pound bill, I was made redundant two days after the accident...
Had she not been insured that amount would have hit our bank balance pretty hard not even mentioning stress levels having to worry how to cover the bill! I was lucky to recieve ok R.package but after paying the bill we would have been left with not much to cover me being out of work...and I would have not been able to go and work straight away as my girl could not be left alone at all.

I can see why this man is upset about the neutering "deal" the vets have made but he should be grateful the help is there even if they have been pretty unfair saying they will not help if he does not get neutered. I would be fuming...
I do not mean to generalise but I would imagine most people the vets hear saying -I want to stud my dog so do not want to neuter- are the kind of dogs that probably should not be bred from so you can't blaim the vets wanting to do the snip while the dog is under anyway... to stop the "studding" process before they are soon having to deal with the puppies of the dog as well!

His dog is young so if he wishes to have to lines in his breeding he could always use a father of his dog or maybe brother to cover his bitch so not all is lost there.
If he was not going to use the dog as a part of his own breeding plans but to offer him at stud to others, he has not really "lost" much...

>raise taxes, it wouldnt have to be much, it would be cheaper than insurance.

Spoken like a true non-tax payer *rolleyes*.  Come back to me when you've been gainfully employed for 15 years or so and tell me then that you're happy to sacrifice even more of you earnings to fund the pet care of all the irresponsible backyard breeders, puppy farmers and numpties who shouldn't be allowed within 10 feet of a live animal....because it would be those people you'd also be picking up the tab for.   

Pet ownership is a priviledge, not a right.  If YOU can't afford to provide for YOUR pets, then you shouldn't have them in the first place.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2045340

>Maybe something to think about if  people get hit financially(lose their job) is even if you have never insured to insure your pets.

I agree, when ive been financially strained in the past ive got rid of sky tv, lived on "basics" food and even fed the dogs cheaper food but have always kept the dogs and cats insurance going, a couple of times ive had to borrow the excess from my mum but £50 is slightly different to Fagans bill, so far his torsion has cost just under £2000, and he still has ongoing issues with it.  I would never have been able to afford that without insurance. 

>raise taxes, it wouldnt have to be much, it would be cheaper than insurance.

I would rather pay insurance, the same as I do private health care for myself.  An NHS for pets would have the same waiting list for scans, operations etc that the one for humans does.  If you wanted anything done quick or more extensive treatment/invetigations you would still need to pay. 

> Pet ownership is a priviledge, not a right.  If YOU can't afford to provide for YOUR pets, then you shouldn't have them in the first place.

I agree fully Shaynlola. Its like everything in life, if you can't afford it you can't have it (with regard to luxuries) And I believe a pet is a luxury that should be cherished not a person's god given right. There are so many people who cannot afford to keep themselves properly, let alone another living creature that has been selfishly brought into their lives.

Why go on about tax paying . Every working person pays it, not for the people who cant work but for the greedy government. I think a in between vet would be good, one that is not free yet not charging over the top coasts. So that people who have less money can pay for there pets. And as for, you should not have a dog if you cant afford it. Tell that to the lonely person who has nothing left in this world but his faithful dog. Would you take it away just because he's poor? If so then you can start by stopping poor people having kids .

I can appreciate your sentiments but  a [url=] couple of times ive had to borrow the excess from my mum but £50 [/url]  how lucky you are.  Don't you realise that there are many of us out here who don't have a Mum, or anyone else for that matter, to borrow £50 from.
As far as another poster said about owning a pet being a 'privilage not a right' Shame on you!  Yes we should be responsible for our own - be it pets, kids, siblings, partners, parents etc - but have you no charity or humanity?  The people in third world countries could be told the same about having children [not to mention people in this country who can't afford what are regarded as necessities [varies according to standpoint/age].
Perhaps I'mbeing overly socialist about this but I'm rather shocked at some responses that appear to be bordering on, at a minimum, elitist.

a charity is a charity, they have the perfect right to request something they believe in, after all they are paying for HIS DOG!

Mahonc - Yes I agree that, if need be to get the dog seen to he has to have the dog castrated, the dog's health is most important whatever- unless, of course, totally unreasonable requests are made.  Yes it is charity - in my mind charity should be given freely and without obligation.  Encourage responsible ownership but don't blanket judge people; I did say I understood the rationale behind RSPCA' s policy of neutering animals. 
What I was saying is that I think I can understand the dilemma of the man with the dog and that slating him and saying he shouldn't own a dog is inhumane and that a little understanding and support should be given rather than saying he shouldn't have a dog because someone else has been knocking on doors to earn some money and if he can't he shouldn't own a dog. 

Just adding to the end of the postings..

Just had a thought on this, if this dog has huge potential, would the breeder or maybe other breeders/friends in the breed assist? If he has the chance to expand and improve the breed that many people are interested in him i would possibly look for some assistance from them.. Then again his brothers may also have potential as well. Don't know what breed you are talking about but much as i don't agree with what the RSPCA are saying to this man i would have to go with what is best for my dog if i had exhausted all avenues first.

ETA: Some people don;t have insurance as they feel they are financially secure, then the ****hits the fan and before you know it you have no job and no money to pay for things, your dog breaks its leg and then what?? I don't think saying he doesn't have insurance means this that and the other, many people don't have pet insurance and are fine and find the money as they go.

Been thinking on this and it does bother me a bit that RSPCA have given this ultimatum.
Yes, i agree they are helping him which is great. But surley as a welfare organisation theywould rather help the poor animal than push the owner into something he does not want! Myself I couldn't leave the dog in pain because I couldn't get the owner to conceed. I'm glad the owner will get the op done for his dog, but I feel for the owner.
Also some may still be able to afford insurance after losing job but, not everyone can... What is only 15 pounds to one person is not necessarily the same for another!

>There's obviously more to this story, whatever it is! 

And how would you know that?

Because there are 2 sides to every story and we are only ever told one side, just like every other post on this board!
Nothing in this world is straight forward.

>And how would you know that?

>Because there are 2 sides to every story and we are only ever told one side, just like every other post on this board!
>Nothing in this world is straight forward.

So you thought, along with some other members, to make up the other side for yourselves? Seriously, some people have too much time on their hands. Give the guy a break. You do not know anything for sure and why should there be a reason for this man to lie? Not all vets will do a costly surgery on an animal and then accept payments for this, regardless of being a new or old client, having had this happen before, being messed around with payments etc... at the end of the day, it's a business and some vets treat it very much so! He would probably be better off accepting the help of the charity and not being in any more debt. It's sad the dog has to be neutered against his wishes, but there will always be another good working dog and the dog isn't going to mind one bit if he's used at stud or not. If he was such an exceptional dog, there would have been another way round it, but as it stands, he probably will not cause the downfall of his breed by being neutered.
And thanks for your little bit of wisdom Westcoast, but actually some things in this world are very straight forward and it just so happens that some people like to turn something simple into something complex even if it is not.

>Pet ownership is a priviledge, not a right.  If YOU can't afford to provide for YOUR pets, then you shouldn't have them in the first place.

Tell that to a homeless person who's only friend and warmth at night is his dog. Does that dog ever run off? Does it follow anyone else home in the hope of a better life? A warmer bed? Better quality food? No and that dog probably has a closer bond and more exercise than a lot of pet dogs shut in at home while their owner's are out at work all day or the multiple dog household where some or all are kept shut out in kennels. These charities exist to help people so that they can keep the pets they have made a part of their family. They allow them to provide for the animal without worry, while trying to get themselves back on their feet. They allow them to have a friend in life where sometimes they think the whole world is against them.

Maybe you should look at what you have and just be thankful, rather than judgemental of those less fortunate. I wish people were as charitable with their pockets as they are with their opinions.

Think someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning! :)

>Think someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning!

What a typical response *yawn* maybe I'll go back to it. Unless you actually have something worth saying? Didn't think so. *yawn*

> raise taxes, it wouldnt have to be much, it would be cheaper than insurance.

I hope you never run for parliament, you would laughed out for suggesting that...do you not think any raised taxes could be better spent elsewhere e.g. education or paying our troops a decent wage!! Ridiculous!

> What a typical response *yawn* maybe I'll go back to it. Unless you actually have something worth saying? Didn't think so. *yawn*

I really don't think that was necessary especially as westcoast is a long standing & well respected member of CD, everyone is entitled to their opinion, maybe we should all remember that before posting & arguing.

If this man cannot afford the vet bills for his dog, how would he be able to afford to fulfil his obligation as the owner of the stud who sired a litter if such a litter could not be sold/rehomed or returned to breeder? 

After all, the stud owner should accept this obligation too.

Seems to me that this chap is complaining because he is not going to be able to recoup stud fees! 

I kind of got that impression myself. OK, so it may be a bit extreme of the RSPCA to place sanctions like this on the treatment of a dog but wouldn't most of us just be glad our dog was alive rather then getting all uptight because we could not make loads of money out of him at stud?

How much of this is about the immediate welfare of the dog & how much of it is about the money they can make out of him for themselves? I bet i know which option the dog would rather have. I might well be a bit sad that his lines wont be passed on but i have to say that would pale into insignificance in a situation like this because the dog would be more important to me than how much money i can get at stud.

I'd like to think companionship would be the main priority.

when ive been financially strained in the past ive got rid of sky tv, lived on "basics" food and even fed the dogs cheaper food but have always kept the dogs and cats insurance going, a couple of times ive had to borrow the excess from my mum

same here iv even had my house phone put on incoming calls only in the past when iv been straped for cash , what the heck i talk to much anyway lol,

theirs loads of thing i could cut back on last year i let the car go as we couldnt afford the repairs needed and the mot , tax and insurance was all due so i gave up on it and i was never more fitter for all the walking i done it was great,
now we have a car again since march this year and i dont feel as good in myself as i did last year :-( ,
it is a shame that the RSPCA are forcing the man to have the dog done but at the end of the day if thats their rules then their not alot can be done , the important thing is the dog gets his leg fixed ,

i myself was hounded by a charity that helped me out the start of the year and it wernt even the dog they helped,  that they wanted to castrate they wanted me to bring my boy in who they'd never seen to castrate him at 7 months old, when my bitch had been done already and i could see no reason to have him done ,
i will say they were very very pushy , ringing me every other day it got so i stopped answering the phone, and i ended up paying them near on the full cost of the treatment after they helped me anyway as my mum helped me out she to was sick of them calling the house,  but they still went on and on in the end i told them advice i got from here on his growth plates closing right, only then did they stop hounding me,

vinya,
I do agree a dog should not be left in pain for what ever reason, RSPCA or vets. Again with vets, money comes priority before the wellbeing of the animal.
Neutering especially immature male dogs,
increases the risk of ostreosarcoma (bone caner)
increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a fact of 1.6
triples the risk of hypothyroidism
increases the risk of progressive geriatric congnitive impairment
triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
quadruples the small risk 6% of prostate cancer
doubles the risk 1% of urinary tract cancers
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations.
I do not think any surgery that is not life threatening should be took lightly for any reason.

Denese

>If this man cannot afford the vet bills for his dog, how would he be able to afford to fulfil his obligation as the owner of the stud who sired a litter if such a litter could not be sold/rehomed or returned to breeder?

Perhaps he's hoping to be back in full employment by then, and that his current financial circumstances are just temporary.

Careful JG, you might be accused of "So you thought, along with some other members, to make up the other side for yourselves?":) :) :)
Shame we don't have a smiley for a big belly laugh! :)

> If its not a pedigree dog, whats the point of not neutering? What difference does it make?
>

potentially a huge one to the sealing of joints etc as well as behavioural issues... i ahve no itention of breeding from my dog but have been assured by our behaviourist that his behaviour would take a dip if he was done. if this is a giant breed of dog 11 months is far to early to have the op.

well if we leave europe.

> I too would be grateful that the RSPCA could help my pet, but it still is an awful position for the owner to be in

quite.

>Don't you realise that there are many of us out here who don't have a Mum, or anyone else for that matter, to borrow £50 from.

of course I realise that, I was sharing my experiences of being skint not digging at anyone, there is no need to be so hostile.

Unfortunately lots of hostility on this thread! :(  It seems that some people don't want to hear how others cope when they've been dumped in the mire! :(

If we leave europe..wot? Why on earth would we want to do that?! Do u really think the voters would accept a hike in taxes 4 pet nhs - wot planet do u live on. A ridiculous idea im not goin to give anymore of my time too.. I wonder sometimes..

>Careful JG, you might be accused of "So you thought, along with some other members, to make up the other side for yourselves?" 
>Shame we don't have a smiley for a big belly laugh!

The difference is, JG actually had something positive to say and it wasn't to the detriment of the poor gentleman's character. Go ahead, laugh that big belly off. ;)

> Go ahead, laugh that big belly off. ;-)

hey now, thats not necessary. please mind how your talking to people, there is not any need to be insulting.

I think that might have been tic - there was a ;) after it.

I have locked this thread for the time being. Do please try and disagree without becoming disagreeable.
Thank you,

Jeff.