They look like Dalmatians to me!!!
http://normaldals.blogspot.com/

"I have no problem in doing a cross to develop Dalmatians that are at worse carriers, but it should be done within the the Regulations of the UK KC "

There is a great big world out there! everything does not revolve around the UK!
This 'Project' has been done over 35 years, & 14 generations ago!
Are you saying we should start from scrach here???

> There is a great big world out there! everything does not revolve around the UK!

They have failed in those 35 years(mainly done without DNA testing of course)to get their dogs recognized by their American Registry. What I am saying is if they had done this in the UK in a lot less than 35 years they would have LUA Dalmatians here, especially as there is a DNA test.

All though they claim that the American"LUA"dogs have been Canine Hyperuricosuria free for generations it has only been last year that there has been definitive proof that some of their dogs are Canine Hyperuricosuria  free.

Sorry but in the UK if you wish to breed pedigree dogs & show them then you have to abide by the UK rules. If this dog is imported then his offspring should be treated as the F1 generation of Boxer crosses were & then after breeding their offspring for two generations & using the DNA tests they could be declared Dalmatians. Just to use the dog on any bitches would be reckless as looking at the pedigrees of the LUA they do have a lot of inbreeding & line breeding to the same dogs off the 5 generation pedigree

TBH I have little interest what this breeder does as I have little or no interest in Dalmatians as a breed, however I do know that introducing "foreign"bloodlines into a British breed(that has a very large gene pool) did bring genetic conditions that either had never been seen in the breed or was exceptionally rare-another genetic condition that had never been seen has now been found & the dogs go back to imports. There is one British bloodline dog that has alleged been clinically affected by this condition, but I have yet to have seen the clinical report confirming this. There could be genetic conditions lurking in the LUA dogs !

Two posts & already sledging me that must be a record !

You really do need to research this more! Dna testing as been done all along the way!
at UC Davis
inimically the AKC did except these Dalmatians for registration on the 3rd generation BUT guess what?
POLITICS came into it! The American Dal club had board members on the AKC!!!
& blocked it as best they could & continue to do so to this day, they see the NUA Dals as a *threat* to their puppy sales!
After all, the general public want a *HEALTHY* dog! Now it as just become a habit with the DCA to oppose the NUA's
You would think Health would take precedence wouldn't you?

There is more health testing in the US & Europe than you will ever see here!
One of the worst problems that was found in europe was traced back to UK imports!

So Sorry! I forgot to ad NUA's are NOT line bred & have NEVER been inbred!
They have kept the genepool as diverse as possible, the breeding ethics are impeccable!

> There is more health testing in the US & Europe than you will ever see here!

Really ? so the are years ahead of us in everything then ! I really must go back to school & redo all my genetic knowledge as I know nothing about anything obviously !

Do enlighten me as to what extra tests my Border Collies need to have done that I don't know about, they are already CEA/TNS(lab work done in Australia)/CL/MDR-1 tested. Before being bred from they will be Hip/Elbow scored/clinically eye tested/BAER tested. What extra tests do the USA/Europe do ? I am awaiting with bated breath !

> One of the worst problems that was found in europe was traced back to UK imports!

What breed was this in then that they had condition free dogs in Europe before the introduction of pure British bloodlines ?

Sorry to upset you!

I am only talking about one breed DALMATIANS!

> So Sorry! I forgot to ad NUA's are NOT line bred & have NEVER been inbred!

So they did one breeding to another breed & never bred back to him at all, also never bred back to any dog in the pedigree ?? This bitch is inbred on the second generation, as is this dog on the third generation plus this & this on the 4th generation off the pedigree on the page & this again just off the pedigree, so you think they haven't been inbred ?????? Really your must do more research before making such statements !!!

This is UKC GRCH Stocklore Top Spot pictured at nearly 11 years old. Topper is a wonderful dog that can be found in most of the NUA pedigrees today.

I'm confused if this dog is in most of the LUA/NUA pedigrees how can he not have been bred to & he was inbred also.

The "Dalmatian Backcross Project" commenced in 1973 with the original outcross
of an AKC registered Champion Pointer sire bred to an AKC registered Dalmatian dam.
Dr. Robert Schaible conducted the breeding in an effort to address the fixed genetic defect in Dalmatians that affects uric acid metabolism and that may lead to increased urinary uric acid, urate crystals, urinary bladder aggregate formation, stones, urinary tract obstruction and even death.

But if there was DNA testing from the outset he wouldn't have had bred in an effort to address the fixed genetic defect-he would simply have done the cross & bred to genetically normal dogs from the cross

> You really do need to research this more! Dna testing as been done all along the way!
> at UC Davis
> inimically(???????) the AKC did except these Dalmatians for registration on the 3rd generation BUT guess what?
> POLITICS came into it! The American Dal club had board members on the AKC!!!
> & blocked it as best they could & continue to do so to this day, they see the NUA Dals as a *threat* to their puppy sales!
> After all, the general public want a *HEALTHY* dog! Now it as just become a habit with the DCA to oppose the NUA's
> You would think Health would take precedence wouldn't you?

However the club's would have had no say in this in the UK as the breeding would have been agreed before undertaken(as the Bobtail boxers did)& the breed clubs could not object after the UK KC permission is granted & the breed clubs as far as I am aware do not have powerful "friends"in the KC to get decicions overturned in this way. They would have to abide by the KC Rules & Regs & if the KC gave permission it cannot be taken back.

People do not have to use the offspring in their breeding programs in the UK & as long as the dogs still fulfill the Breed Standard visually they would be unable to object.

The UK KC did register some Bloodhounds from a pack that had over breed(s)in their pedigree & the Bloodhound people did objext as not only were the dogs not typical, they had not been bred within the KC regulations, this wasn't done for health purposes as far as I know but because the Bloodhound is considered a Vulnerable breed in the UK(I'm sure Sam will come all & give the full details-being a good Bloodhound breeder)

> I am only talking about one breed DALMATIANS!

No need to shout it's considered rude to use Caps on the internet.

So you cannot enlighten me as to what extra tests I need to do on my BCs. You have a rather narrow genetic knowledge of breeds then ?

As there was DNA testing done from 1976 this is a revelation as the first human genetic disease/condition wasn't found until 1983 ! Canine genetic research is obviously miles ahead of human DNA research !!

That is not inbreeding,

Dalmatians do not posses a normal gene so how could he breed to normal?

Why are you so angry?

Breeding half brother & sister is inbreeding ! so the breeding of the bitch is inbreeding

Inbreeding is defined as mating between related individuals

He would not have had to make an effort, as if you write, there was a known marker gene from 1976, he simply had to do the cross keep the clear/carrier offspring(ie unaffected dogs) & breed them back to Dalmatians-test keep the clear dogs/carrier dogs & breed them to suitable genetic mates QED

The blood samples and pedigree information were provided to Dr. Danika Bannasch at the University of California at Davis for DNA analysis that led to the identification of the single gene responsible for the Dalmatian breed specific uric acid defect.  Dr. Bannasch's retrospective analysis of Dr. Schaible's pedigree and parentage data, and her correlation to his spot urine testing records, revealed that zero mistakes had been made.  The DNA test results confirmed a 100% accuracy of the pedigree and urine testing records.

It was through her work with Dalmatians that Dr bannasch made progress with human DNA for HUA!

This is SOOOO off topic!!!

Goodnight & sweetdreams to you!

But that is what he did !

> Dalmatians do not posses a normal gene so how could he breed to normal?

But as all the dogs have been DNA tested surely the Pointer was a genetically normal dog therefore his offspring would only be carriers ?? Breeding the offspring together would result in a ratio of normal:carrier:affected of 1:2:1 & ergo after the F1s bred together(oops inbreeding!) there should mathematically have been normal puppies which could be bred to pure Dalmatians to produce just carriers, which could be bred back to the F1 generation to breed genetically normal in the F3 generation! Simple really as Aleksandr Orlov says

> It was through her work with Dalmatians that Dr bannasch made progress with human DNA for HUA!

So this was in 1976 ?

Well I'm all for careful outcrossing to ameliorate health issues, but I'm not sure why you would start over in this case when the cross has already been done and been very well documented and monitored by the several scientist/breeders involved. It has also taken much more than four generations to get the ticking correct on the LUA dals (because the problem gene is very close to the gene that codes for the ticking).  As many are quick to point out, there are potential problems in outcrossing to another breed, mostly in terms of bringing in a new health problem . But the hard work on this has now been done.

The uric acid test, as am sure you know, is pointless for KC-reg'd dals becase they are homozygous for this problem, hence why it's impossible to breed away from the problem within the breed.

>I'm not sure why you would start over in this case when the cross has already been done

As a starting-point, yes. But surely nobody would suggest that a single cross (thus making every single LUA dalmatian closely related - too closely related, given the current hoo-hah about inbreeding) is sufficient to 'cure' the problem in the breed?

There would need to be a least a couple of dozen crosses, each using as far as possible unrelated dalmatians and suitable unrelated pointers for the project to be viable. This should be done, as with the bobtail boxers, with the agreement of the KC.

Precisely Jean, despite the claim that they are not inbred at all there is a bitch who was a half brother sister off spring ! who allegedly isn't inbred !! Doh !!!

You know how I feel about inbreeding, and I'm delighted that you are so keen to condemn it, but it's it's not fair to condemn the whole initiative because of a half-sib mating. After all, such matings (and their COI equivalent, or closer) are commonly found in the pedigrees of many KC-registered dogs.

The key issue here for debate, surely, is whether or not the LUA dals should be accepted and registered? And, if the current rules don't allow, is there a pressing enough reason for those rules to be changed? 

Hi Jemima,
If I might make so bold if inbreeding is such a bad idea surely to condone by allowing these dogs to be registered is double standards. Inbreeding is fine when person xyz says it is?
I think the issue for debate is as outlined previously-that is that if the cross with pointers is the way to go then it should be done in a more co-ordinated way with a larger gene pool from the outstet?
Jeff.

>If I might make so bold if inbreeding is such a bad idea surely to condone by allowing these dogs to be registered is double standards. Inbreeding is fine when person xyz says it is?

That's a very valid point. If inbreeding is automatically bad and should be banned it's hypocritical to go to exceptional lengths to allow it for any reason. Or are we now saying that inbreeding is acceptable if it's done for reasons of which we approve? If so, who has the final say-so to approve it?

Although I don't think that the mating of first-degree relatives is ever warranted, an occasional close-ish mating in an otherwise outbred pedigree is unlikely to cause huge problems unless it inadvertently doubles up on some hideous health problem. It's persistent inbreeding that impacts the overall genetic diversity of a breed that is the issue and these dogs have not been persistently inbred by any means (indeed mostly the opposite as those involved are all too aware of the dangers). Some of the matings in the Backcross Project have been experimental in order to fully nail inheritance, too.

But this is red-herring stuff. And not least because most here don't themselves see anything wrong with a half-sib mating.

> But this is red-herring stuff. And not least because most here don't themselves see anything wrong with a half-sib mating.
>

What now you are a mind reader as well as having encyclopaedic knowledge of everything canine ?

I'm(hopefully)getting a bitch next year with a view to breeding a litter from one of my male dogs(sorry it will be the same breed(not a Cavalier either) & yes all the health tests will be done). Her breeder has more knowledge about the breed's bloodlines, genetic conditions etc etc etc that you or anyone else has as researching the breed as well as having hands on knowledge of the breed-warts for longer than I've owned dogs(& that's 50 years) & all & he would be happy for me to mate her to the have brother I have as the pedigree itself is line bred, but not closely inbred(& yes he knows about COI etc)however I am not happy to do so & my plan is to use my KC only registered male on her(she will not be KC reg BTW-no not a mongrel she is eligible for KC registration) & possibly use my older dog on a daughter-as yet no plans are set in stone, if my young dog's hips/elbows etc are not of breeding standard(he is already DNA normal for all available tests), he has a litter brother in the Netherlands who has excellent hips so I have a few options.

But this is red-herring stuff. And not least because most here don't themselves see anything wrong with a half-sib mating.

Sorry Jemima but that sort of generalisation does nothing to further any reasoned discussion.
Jeff.

>these dogs have not been persistently inbred by any means

But they're all descended from the one single dog, so if any two are mated together it's doubling-up on genes and limiting the gene pool. From the online pedigrees it appears this is still going on.

>most here don't themselves see anything wrong with a half-sib mating

It appears that neither do you, as long as you approve of the reason.