Whatever Off to work my dogs(as in moving those funny things that bleat & others that go moo)with my Border Collies, terrible that dogs that can still do the job they were developed for

I don't know much about showing this breed, nor have i really paid much attention to them in the ring until sat just gone at a local open show.
There was no double handling that i saw, which was a good thing.

But one question if the breed is more intelligent than others(quote from somewhere else, not sure on this topic) that they need someone running around the outside of the ring they wouldn't need that??

Is it due to the breed as a general rule getting bored and they need some distraction to make them move as they don't enjoy it??
Surely showing is abotu the dog enjoying it first and foremost and if you don't have that then what is the point??

Not having a go at anyone with GSD'S who show as i think they are a wonderful breed, just not for me..
Seeing the ones i work with(indirectly) they are working stock with straight backs and substantially built.
Just wondering really, as don't think that this has ever been answered..

the whole point is moonmaiden is the kennel club have seen fit to revoke cc from the GSD as the health issues are that much of a concern and because the bred clubs refuse to do anything.
yes danes have (some danes) have issues with dcm which is being addressed. and if there are visciuos danes out there, you wil find an wqual number of any other bred out there with temprament issues and if such dogs DO have temprament issues they should be duly reported to the kennel club.

> Seeing the ones i work with(indirectly) they are working stock with straight backs and substantially built.

What work do they do ? Are the sheep or cattle dogs or guard or patrol dogs ? Are they from health tested lines ? if they are the non stock working dogs are they licensed ?(as per the police etc dogs)

" the whole point is moonmaiden is the kennel club have seen fit to revoke cc from the GSD as the health issues are that much of a concern and because the bred clubs refuse to do anything."

The only breed clubs that are refusing to tackle the health issues are the Alsatian Clubs, they have no breeders code of ethics & health guidelines for tests that are considered the minimum required for the breed, only the required KC code that is mandatory for all breed clubs registered with the KC.

In November last year it became obvious that the KC had little if no interest in the health of the GSD & only wanted to alter the breed standard & stop double handling. They also had no interest is mandatory breed survey before breeding. The Alsatian clubs are not members of the Breed Council which IMHO points to their lack of interest in the health & welfare.

The two main GSD clubs in the UK have long wanted to have a rigid health, temperament requirement for the breed. The GSD League was pivotal in the hip scoring scheme as it now exists (& also it's predecessor  the certificate/breeders letter/fail scheme in 1960), they pioneered the scheme in 1978-it took the KC 6 years to catch up-now not a lot of people know that ! The GSD League also started the NDTR & the Breed Council initiated the Haemophilia tests. If anyone knows of any health scheme started by the Alsatian clubs please let me know as I certainly have never heard nor read of one.

Please consider who has the most concern for the health of the GSD is it really the KC & the Alsatian clubs or the GSD Breed Council & it's member clubs ? 

I haven't seen any health initiatives come directly from the KC for the GSD, but several that have come from the GSD clubs & the HD scheme is benefiting not just GSDs but all breeds. Even the eye scheme that the KC have is pre-dated by the ISDS one !! Hm food for thought.

>But one question if the breed is more intelligent than others(quote from somewhere else, not sure on this topic) that they need someone running around the outside of the ring they wouldn't need that??

>Is it due to the breed as a general rule getting bored and they need some distraction to make them move as they don't enjoy it??

The breed is extremely intelligent, probably too intelligent IMO to run round a ring doing nothing else.  In my view, they become fully alert and interested when working; this is when the breed really shows its true beauty.

The GSD is predominately a working breed that can be shown, not a show breed that can work.  In all fairness, I can see why the Germans employ double handling in long gaiting shows to keep the breed interested; however, it's supposed to be a skill, not run round the outside of a ring hooting and yelling; barging into spectators and each other coming from the opposite direction.  In this country of litigation, someone, somewhere will end up getting hurt and then what happens? There is a health and safety issue here; just imagine the JH follower's outcry if that happened at a KC show.  They cannot afford any more negative publicity and neither can the GSD.

Here here MM *applauds*

If it was only about health, why focus on the GSD?  They are far from being the only breed with health problems, unfortunately!!  Why not suspend the CCs for every breed with health problems and insist on only registering pups from health tested parents?????  Because it's all about double handling.  They are using health as part of it to make them look like they're doing something about it! They don't give a monkeys for health - it would cost them too much money to insist on registering only pups from health tested parents from any breed let alone all of them!

>Because it's all about double handling

Even if it is all about double handling, the KC may be this, and that, and we can all have a moan at them from time to time but how in all fairness, can they be reasonably expected to enforce the rules for other breeds and yet make exceptions for the GSD? 

BTW, I do agree with MM's post;  the GSD fraternity does indeed show commitment and dedication to health testing.  

Not aimed at you Spender, just added to end of thread :-)

If all the different factions in GSD's spent as much time caring about the breed's health as they do b*tching about each other maybe the breed wouldn't be in the state it is in. Seems to me that in their efforts to be as far from each other as possible in their interpretation of the standard, they have all managed to do a great job of ruining a beautiful and noble breed!

As a complete novice I only went to one GSD champ show with my puppy. Never again. He got 2nd out of 2 in his class but I was able to come out proud that he wasn't double handled - unlike the first placing. Also with me was my longcoat male (entered NFC). He was laying there minding his own business when a stranger came up, pointed at him & shouted "what the HELL is that?"  How rude!  I just like to live, play & look at this beautiful animal & to me he was the best dog there that day.

Well done Moonmaiden for keeping things under control when you are in charge. Why don't all the others do this? I attended my first show recently and was amazed at the double handling and put a note on this forum regarding my reaction. At the show I attended the judge did stop the proceedings to warn the people about their conduct but once the show was under way again they continued. The judge continued with his task and no one was penalised for their behaviour.  I did not realise then that it was such a controvercial subject. I am a great lover of the breed and in most cases I chose the same dog, as the judge did, to win each class. Seeing the dogs at rest, so to speak, and not just in pose, showed that there is not a lot of exagerated angulation, it is just the traditional pose that makes them look that way. I love the long haired type too, they have their own shows and associations and I'm glad they do or else all the long haired dogs would be on scrap heap. Even the top breeders get long hairs in their litters. Why don't the Alsationists form their own group likewise and stop all the arguing, or is this too simple?  

> Why don't the Alsationists form their own group likewise and stop all the arguing, or is this too simple?  

Surely it would be even more simple for people for people to breed to the standard rather than exaggerate it.  This applies to both the continental and British types. 

Both sides have gone away from the breed standard. One only has to look at the dogs in the ring now vs the dogs from years ago to see how exaggerations have completely altered the breed in the show ring - even from when I was handling them in the 80s.

The people I feel sorry for in this farce are the ones who are breeding to the standard and handling their dogs in a quiet and competent manner.  They are out there and if the breed is completely split where do they fit in? 

Debs

Hi,Soli.
You sound like a very sensible dog person as I am sure you are. Since when was anthing simple in gsds!!
Regards dogs of the eighties one of the great show dogs of that era has just died
I am sure you will know the dog very well he was afine example of the gsd middle of the road honest sound and ex temperament handled perfectly by a young chap
called Gary Gray.
The shows of those days were friendly and  very enjoyable we seem to have lost
that to-day.
I showed a dog called Thatcher at Paighton 1983 he took the CC &the Working/Pastoral Group.Died of torsion at ten  years.
There were no doubling handling like it is today maybe the split might bring some
benefits to the little honest breeder and exibitors as money and power curupts!!!

GSDs are not the only breed who face having CCs removed. There is an article in Our dogs this Friday on the same theme from the KC saying the same will happen for pekes too.

Well I haven't seen much double handling around the Peke ring :-D so I guess this might have more to do with health than others appeared to think!

If CCs are being removed from breeds because they are not fit for function, then there will not be many breeds being shown in a few years time. Just look at all those breeds with coats almost touching the ground, or short-legged breeds that barely have a gap betwen their body and the floor, etc,.etc. - will the KC be taking action against them soon?

>I guess this might have more to do with health than others appeared to think!

Hindquarters and exaggerated toplines, too.  It's basically a jab to get their house in order and can be reversed within 12 months if an agreement can be reached.  I very much doubt there will be a split and certainly not under the KC. 

Re the CC thing these moves are mostly to try to get the various breed clubs to work together to resolve  differences and work together.