If this behaviour occurs only when you attempt to pick her up I am of the opinion that the first time you did this she was spooked maybe you did it too fast , maybe  one of your children has accidentally dropped her (apologies if I am completely wrong but kids will be kids and I would ask them as they wouldnt tell you !) this would definitely give her reason to be fearful .....sit back and look at senario's that could have induced this behaviour.
I would leave her on the floor for a good  while then gradually pop her on my knee while I am still on the floor giving treats nice things like sausages and smelly food that will distract her ,then when I am sitting on a sofa all over  a long period of time and see how it goes.

With my breed when they are having freaky moments as puppies I find if I put them on thier side lie over them whispering into the ear and stroking the body , you can really feel the pup relax completely even begin to fall asleep then get up and walk away....I was told this years ago by a breeder and have done it at some point with every puppy I have had and it works.

If you are really worried about this puppy's temperament I would be looking again at the breeding and parents temperaments then if concerned seek out a good behaviourist who will come to the home and observe.

An old neighbour of mine had a pup with the worst temperament I have ever seen and I know what you mean by the teeth and growl and the look in the eye , this pup eventually badly bit the owner and was hanging on like grim death ...but this pups parents  was not  known .I knew the owner and the dog was adored and well cared for, I sadly do believe that you can have a nasty pup as I have seen it first hand.How often do we say we breed for temperment above all else.

I am sorry you are not enjoying your baby and hope you sort this out soon.

It might be more effective to have her attached to you by a house lead while you are toilet training. I have house trained two dogs in less than 2 weeks by this method. The dog is attached to your belt by a lead. Everytime the dog starts to circle or sniff in 'that' way, you run to the door and go outside, when they have performed outside you praise them and let them off the lead for a play of ball or tuggy or what they like best. Then back on the lead again to come back in. Be especially vigilant right after meals.
If you need to leave the pup alone for a while, take it outside (don't pick it up, just walk out, as it is still attached to you it will come too) for a toilet break and then shut it into its sleep area (i used a crate for the more recent pup, years ago, before crates were available i had a corner of the kitchen cordoned off with a fireguard to contain the pup's bed).
My current dog was very headstrong as a pup. Like yours he was the boss of the litter, and he had learnt from his litter mates that nipping and growling got him his own way. He had to learn from us that's not how humans work. So, when he growled and nipped us we did not let him have his own way, but on the other hand we tried every way we could to avoid situations which caused the behaviour, to such an extent that i had a list of 'puppy rules' on the kitchen cupboard for the family to adhere to (eg 1 don't pick pup up, 2 if pup nips you put him in his crate for a few minutes to calm down, 3 take pup out for a wee before playing with him etc etc).
Think what causes the growling and nipping and avoid it altogether for a while. If this is something your dog must be trained to do (my dog hated the grooming brush at first), once you have avoided it for a couple of weeks start introducing it again very slowly with treats and positives. Hopefully by that time your pup will know and trust you and so will not react negatively to the unusual.
Things that helped us were, in order of importance i think:
consistent calm behaviour from all of the family,
a set of rules for us all to follow,
having the dog on a house lead at all times so we could divert him from unwanted places without getting nipped,
making sure the pup got enough rest time on his own, as well as short bursts of active playtime with us (like a hyperactive toddler he would find his own naughty activities when left to his own devices, and that behaviour was far worse when he was tired, after a nap he would generally be very calm but he didn't seem able to regulate his rests himself as a pup),
changing his diet (he had been on Bakers, and we changed to Iams, I think he is a bit sensitive to the colourings in Bakers).

We now have a dog who is still exciteable, playful and fun to be with, but is well behaved and loving to everyone, and i get compliments on how well-trained - he is now 3 years old.
I hope this specific advice helps you.

hi dont know if you received my post, i used method that was non violent and it worked, as i said in my post i had a puppy bitch who was the same, or similar and she has her occations still, but it has worked a treat, please read my post, it might help

sami x

i didnt think it was normal for her to behave this way as she was so young, (10 weeks) hopefully you will get her sorted

i used method that was non violent and it worked

You're joking, right? NON VIOLENT? What you did was most definitely violence and NOT to be recommended for any dog, ever. Quote from your original post below:
i would grab the skin on the back of her neck and push her to the floor so her cheak was touching the floor, i tried to be quite firm but not agressive and i told her no quite loudly,

So if I came round and grabbed your neck and pushed you onto the floor, I would not be violent?

> i didnt think it was normal for her to behave this way as she was so young,

I do wonder how people expect puppies to behave when they are young?? They haven't had chance to learn any of the comands or behaviour patterns that we have to teach them in order to make it possible for them to live with us. They communicate with the only way they can which includes biting and growling. It is up to us to teach them other ways to behave. Calm, consisitent training using lure & reward, positive reinforcement, redirection and time-outs, teach pup what we want from them as well as help to build a bond of trust and respect.
Physically forcing a puppy into positions is not 'training' it is bullying and will teach pup not to trust or respect the owner (and may even relate this to all people) which is potentialy very, very dangerous. A dog that doesn't trust or respect people and hasn't been taught positively how we want it to react with us, can only resort to it's own instincts (biting, growling) or that which has been taught by bullying - physical force gets results.
I know there is no way I would risk teaching any dog that the strongest bully gets thier own way! I want my dog to think the way to get what it wants is with calmness & patience, I want him to trust & respect me, that way he will never have a reason to guard his food/bed/toys or to feel he has to protect himself from me.

For those contemplating pinning thier dog to the ground think of it the other way around - if you did something your dog didn't like & it grabbed your neck & pinned you to the floor, would you be able to trust it? A dog that doesn't trust his owners doesn't have much of a reason to behave 'nicely' for them :(

Rreeve fantastic idea of the "to-do"  list, although i have already instructed my boy's not to lift her up, even on their knee till it is sorted out.  But the rest sounds great. Panic over!!! for today lol.  I have looked at everyones posts and my family and i will def be trying out some of the methods.  I will stick with the ignore accidents and reward good for now, if i swap and change i'm worried i'll confuse Heidi and perhaps make it worse.  Patience is a virtue.  As for the aggression, i can see Heidi is not naturally agressive as the rest of the time she is amazing, so perseverance is the word of today LOL. 

Toilet training nightmare!!!   When i was teaching Noo toilet training someone told me to use one word and say only that word, if she did her wee/poo outside praise her by repeating this word, tickling and making a fuss... My advise to anyone is dont be hasty when choosing a word!!! In my haste i chose the word "TOILET" the neighbours used to see me regular walking around my garden saying "Toilet" and then squealing TOOOIIIILLLLLEEEETTTTTTTTTTT with great enthusiasm when goal achieved... I have 6 ft fencing and Noo is a tiny Chihuahua.... The neighbourhood thought i was nuts for a very long time ha ha ha

Once again many thanks

Go and look at the article here:

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=113588;pid=1034653;msg=ReplyPost#pid1034653

I think you will find it interesting and useful.

well it worked didnt it, im on here same as you to give advice, not ask for oppinions, how is that violent, at the end of the day all of these books on behaviour would be banned if it was violent,

i have only ever had around 4 puppys in my life and never had a problem, never aggression as a youngster anyway, so obviously i have this puppy with aggression, its not the norm to me, especially when the rest of the litter are ok, maybe i need more experience with puppys to know that it can be normal to have aggressive puppys, 

> well it worked didnt it, im on here same as you to give advice, not ask for oppinions, how is that violent, at the end of the day all of these books on behaviour would be banned if it was violent,

You can still buy books on dog training that advise choke chains,rubbing a dogs nose in it's mess and all kinds  of other out dated methods that are no longer used.These books don't get banned.Anything that involves you needing to use force on a puppy is violent as you are 10 times the size of that pup.You wouldn't teach a toddler anything by physicly forcing it so why a puppy? All that will do is cause the pup to be fearful of you and destroy any trust you may have built up.....

i purposely did it and each time she behaved i would do i again and again, until eventually she would run away from me,. or she wouldnt look at me,

> i purposely did it and each time she behaved i would do i again and again, until eventually she would run away from me,. or she wouldnt look at me,

& this is the reaction you wanted a puppy that runs away or will not look at you ?? How odd that you would want a puppy to show fear of you(& the about are fear reactions)

>> i have sbt and this breed i feel needs dominating over asap,

Dominating hm & why do SBTs need to be dominated ? controlled & well behaved just like all other dogs, but domination ? Nope that's a step back to the dark ages of dog training IMHO

Not replying to anyone in particular and hopefully not sidetracking too much but first to point out I will only use positive training with my dogs and never harsh handling to get anywhere.

Only yesterday I heard of a 7 year old GSD attacking its owner (very badly) and was pts.  They say there was no reason for it - I believe there is always a reason, whether it comes down to a health problem or bad handling etc.

It makes me think that maybe some of the dogs that attack when older and there is so-called no reason have been brought up and 'trained' by their owners using harsh methods e.g. pinning, smacking, grabbing etc.  I might be way off the mark here but something I have been thinking about recently.

Positive, reward based training all the way from me.  Its worked for all our dogs and we currently have 2 GSD's, 2 Rottie's, an Akita, Staffie and Leonberger.

> I will only use positive training with my dogs and never harsh handling to get anywhere.

Positive training here too.  There is no need for harsh methods.  Puppies, like small children genuinely want to please you

My youngster as a puppy went through a stage of grumbling if asked to do something he wasn't ready for or didn't feel like doing.  At night he didn't want to get off his bed to go outside and would mutter under his breath if you tried to physically encourage it!!  We just went to the back door and called him from there whilst rattlng his treat box - he came running with enthusiasm.  If he had snuck up on to the sofa he would grumble if you ever tried to physically hook him off - so we didn't.  We either called him out of the room using the same techniques as before OR started a bit of training and treating with the other dog.  The pup soon worked out that he was going to have more fun off the sofa...  If there were places or situations we thought we might have trouble we tried to never let him get into them - it was far easier to stop him from getting on the sofa in the first instance so we used a gate to exclude him when we weren't in there.  If I was there I'd catch him before he got on (fairly easy as he would telegraph his intent long before he lifted a paw!!)

None of this lasted very long because we never backed him into a corner from which he felt his only defence or strategy might be to growl, bark or bite.  We worked at his pace and to his comfort levels and if he ever seemed to get a bit tetchy then we'd put him to bed for a while.  Just like small children, puppies find it much more difficult to manage their behaviours if they get over tired.  Puppies are very easy to outwit - if they are ever where you don't want them to be, or doing something you don't want them to do just call or lure them into a better place/position/state of mind.  You've gotta love them - even the brightest bean in the box can be fooled by you making noises like you are having a fun time next door, and come for a nosy peek! :)

It makes me think that maybe some of the dogs that attack when older and there is so-called no reason have been brought up and 'trained' by their owners using harsh methods e.g. pinning, smacking, grabbing etc.  I might be way off the mark here but something I have been thinking about recently

Spot on, this is why the dog next door to me (husky/BC x) was put to sleep. And sadly the owner (who did really love his dog, he was just confused due to so much advice from different sources) chose to follow advice to dominate physically and she ended up biting him all up his arm (that was her last bite not her first sadly)...and she was put to sleep.. his fault, but not his fault really as there's always bad advice ... owners don't always know what to take as those who give bad advice can often be very self assured....the "I've had the breed for 30 years and they need to be told who's boss" type usually....

Some good advice here:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/behaviour-training/how-do-dogs-learn.html

Lindsay
x

well it worked didnt it

Virtually ALL methods will work. I'm sure you would do as told if somebody much bigger than you pinned you to the ground and told you you had to, or put a gun to your head and said "do this or I'll shoot you." So the methods will have WORKED. But I'm sure you'd have been MUCH happier doing whatever the task was, if somebody said "I know you're great at doing this so I am asking you, and I'll pay you £50 to do it." !! Dogs are no different here. They just prefer other rewards to money.

> It makes me think that maybe some of the dogs that attack when older and there is so-called no reason have been brought up and 'trained' by their owners using harsh methods e.g. pinning, smacking, grabbing etc.  I might be way off the mark here but something I have been thinking about recently

I tend to think the same, I'm not saying that in every single case it's the owners fault, but I think in most cases it is.

While walking Buster yesterday he found a lovely tempting chicken carcass in the hedge, I told him to 'leave it' - and he did, because he knows if he 'leaves it' he gets a chunk of cheese and a big fuss from me - in other words he isn't going without and it's worth his while to leave it. If I had 'trained' him to 'obey' me by pinning him to the floor his options would be to leave the carcass for fear of me pinning him down , or defend the carcass because it's much more tempting than being pinned down. There is no way I would want my 12 stone young male dog to fear me, that could easily turn to him feeling he has to take out the 'threat' (me). I think pinning dogs down etc.. is bullying, with bigger dogs, the potential danger of this is much more obvious, but it still shouldn't be done with dogs of any size - we are meant to be the most inteligent species, it's not hard to come up with positive strategies to train (not forgetting we can lure & re-direct as training methods, it's not just about teaching commands) a dog if the time is taken to think about it.

I have a 'dominant' breed and in all the research I did into training them, the one thing that kept coming up was 'does not respond to harsh training methods - be kind, gentle & consistent'. If kindness, gentleness and consistency can train a huge power-house of a dog, it can work with the smaller ones. It's simply a case of using positve, reward-based training and working with the dogs motivation and energy, not forgetting to give the dog the mental stimulation it requires (in Buster's case that's not a lot, LOL) and not forgetting they are DOGS, they are not born knowing what we want them to do and they can only understand the words we teach them.

Hi Chip,

My friend had a 6 week old patterdale x staff and she did the same thing as a young pup snarled & growled and went for everyone when she was getting a cuddle. So your not alone in having a feisty young thing on your hands.
Would it possible to enroll yourselves into puppy socialization classes near where you live. Has she had her injections yet? You can always talk to the vet about anyone they might know that could help you. The advice I gave to my friend with her demon pup was not to money coddle her to let her know clear boundaries very early on no charging about only when you let her. Pick a time when you are calm to take 5 minutes to groom her with a soft brush and maybe put a leash on her and have her on a table. If she gets nasty just hold her calmly and do not speak to her, let her have her tantrum and carry on. She will soon realise that her bad attitude snapping etc will not make you back away and stop what behaviour you are doing to her.
My friends dog Tia was a good family dog but a big handful that needed calm discipline every minute of the day. Mind manipulation is the key to get her to forget what gets her in a state in the first place. She obviously is frightened of being picked up so would refrain from that until she is a little older and as learnt more manners.

If she is a pain in the butt now just look at it in time she will grow into a fabulous addition to your family.
Best of luck
sue.    

So far so good, no growls today.  As it was only the odd occasion when picked up i reasoned with myself and decided to change the way i was picking her up... Which a couple of you had mentioned.  So i started by just putting hands under her as if i was going to pick her up, always from an angle so she could see me, never from behind.  On the odd occasion i would lift her slightly and then place her back down all the time giving her plenty of good praise and encouragement.  then on occasion picking her and putting her on my knee.... So far not a squeak, no grumps and def no growls :-) im happy and it looks like so is she.  Grooming, sorted!!! i placed a chew toy in between my knees and she chewed like a good one didn't even notice a full groom.... Yippee things are on the up!!!

Thank you all

> Yippee things are on the up!!!

((( :-D ))) Soo good to see you more positive and enjoying pupster.... and pupster obviously enjoying you.

Good on you chip :)
It's fantastic that you've had improvements allready and it's really good to hear that you have chosen the positive methods out of all the different advice you've had.

I am just so happy!!!! I am sorry for my grump, i can be a complete tool!!! LOl

i do see what your saying but iv proberbly made it worse than it sounds because iv never had this reaction even from my vet who had been breeding and showing over 30 years, i did say i didnt do it agressively, and like i said i am on here to give my oppinion like the rest of us, this is not my post so i dont see how everyone can slate me with my method

i dont have to explain myself, lets get one thing straight, all of my dogs have been dominated over and i have never had any problems with them , they have had professional training too, ppl on here are making out thet im a total bully, just because my method is so called different to others, which i cant beleive at all, none of my dogs are fearfull of me, they just do as thyre told, i have a pack and personally i do feel a pack of sbt need i pack leader and thats me, i dont beat my dogs u know, i hardly have to tell them off, like i said my method worked, all i need to know is that i dont hurt my dogs, i dont beat them so surely this is not aggressive towards them

I'm so glad that you are working through things, Chip!   I know their little teeth are so sharp, but they don't mean to hurt ...they do want to please, just don't know the right way to do so!

So pleased to hear you're getting on with your baby. Keep up the good work and well done you!

> I am sorry for my grump, i can be a complete tool!!! LOl

LOL, no problem - I can be a complete tool too, as demonstrated by my sarcasm in an earlier post, I'm sorry about that.
I'm glad things are working out for you & pup now, again - it's fantastic that you've had improvements allready :)

You don't have to hit dogs to make them submit from fear, dogs do not need to be dominated by a human, whatever you believe you are not part of your dog's"pack", dogs are not wolves & the structure of a wolf pack bears no resemblance to a dog "pack"-unless. No matter  your "pack"consists of a male & a female & all their offspring under the age of 3.

No matter what the likes of Milan say & teach, wolves have a rigid hierarchy lead by the parents of the pack & when their offspring reach maturity they leave to seek a mate & set up their own pack. Keeping one puppy out of a litter you have bred does not make pack in real terms, if you keep the whole litter & then have a second litter & keep all that litter then you would have a pack. Dog "packs"are usually made up of unrelated dogs on the whole with the odd puppy being kept from litters bred.

Milan's pack is not a genetic pack as none of his dog breed(apart from possibly"Daddy") & most if not all are not related, they are in essence a collection of dogs that have a loose association living together in one place.

You wrote that after you"dominated"your puppy(singular)from your litter it either ran away from you or turned away from you. Now when my adults tell a puppy off the puppy shows submissive behaviour to them, it does not run away or turn away from them. Running away & turning away to avoid eye contact is a sign of fear not respect & trust, which is the bond between owner & dog that brings compliance from the dog.

If you truly "dominated"them you would not need to tell them off a look & body posture would stop unacceptable behaviour. If you have ever had an"Alpha"dog, it isn't the one that makes the most noise,it's the one that the rest have respect for & who stops the behaviour they do not want. One of my shepherd bitches was an Alpha & was so virtually from birth, she never had a fight, she did not roll the other dogs, she never pinned puppies or any of the other dogs to the ground, she was awesome & when she died, all hell broke out for a while as a couple of the bitches tried for her role & they had to live separately for the rest of their lives. When these two were split up one of the older dogs assumed the role& peace was restored.

Hi not read all replys but have you had your puppy checked by a vet and is the aggression happening only when you actually hold the dog. What breed is it?

Had a puppy dog once that used to go to sleep outside in the evening and when I went to pick him up to bring him in he would growl, a true warning growl so I would wake him up put on a lead and bring him in. He grew out of it by six months and then he love to have been picked up or called in from an fresh air nap.

For some reason he did not like either being woken or picked up at 10 weeks but by 26 he was fine, I did not insist as he did not like it I did not do it. If this is the only time your pup objects, when picked up, I would ignore it and not do it but if he is cross and threatening all the while I would get a behaviourist or a trainer in to see what the situation is.

However before I did anything I would want a full and in-depth check that he is not suffering from some sort of physical problem, in a young pup it could be almost anything from a congenital to an accidentally acquired one.

Apologies if someone has said this before I have not read right through these very long threads.

Just thought of something else, you said the breeder has male children, it is more than possible one of them may have picked up and hurt or dropped this pup, you will have no way of knowing if this has happened and probably neither will the breeder and if they did not know the pup will not have been checked and or treated for any damage that may have been done.

well il take that advice because i do feel that you have a point, thanks for explaining it more to me, father than having a good go, i have learnt alot of my techniques from the dog whisperer, maybe his book isnt all its cracked up to be, but it worked,

thankyou

> You wrote that after you"dominated"your puppy(singular)from your litter it either ran away from you or turned away from you. Now when my adults tell a puppy off the puppy shows submissive behaviour to them, it does not run away or turn away from them. Running away & turning away to avoid eye contact is a sign of fear not respect & trust, which is the bond between owner & dog that brings compliance from the dog.
>

Hi Moonmaiden,
I am interested in what you have said here- about the running away and the reasons for this.

My new dog Starsky does this- When he greets to me he can become very over excited excessive licking, going mad with saying hello, this is even if we have all been out together!- he gets silly, now I am trying to stop him of this but when I tell him shh or calm down scampers off to the bed and sits down lovely! How can I get him not to be so fearful of me when correcting him- I do not raise my voice as I know he is nervous, I try to be as subtle as possible but nothing seems to work.
How can I develop trust & respect without him being fearful of me when trying to get him to calm down? He is  great at listening to me, when off lead I call him and he comes back instantly.  I have had him here since end of September?

Sorry I know talking about something different than post but would like advice on this.

Chip, glad things are looking up  :)

Lindsay
x

> i have learnt alot of my techniques from the dog whisperer, maybe his book isnt all its cracked up to be, but it worked,

TBH a book isn't the best way to learn a training technique, to read about the technique yes, but really people need to be shown how & when to use it.

As for Milan, well if you bully a dog enough it will close down(tip turn the sound off one of his programs & watch only the dogs reactions & you will see each & everyone shut down & appear to submit, it isn't submission it is avoidance of being bullied) The dogs have no trust in him, they do not come & sit by him after he has"cured them"& now even he has realized that reward for behaviour has it's place in training a dog

>I have had him here since end of September?

Is he a rescue ?

Hi

yes starsky is a rescue of sorts. I took him in to re home him due to his raising his lips and being terrified of my friends baby grandson which was turning into aggression when the young baby started walking. Other issues he had were destroying the rubbish bin and toileting inside when being left for short periods of time- separation anxiety. He was never taken out for a walk only by the 8 year old other child that lived at the property. He was brought up with his mother who was re homed before the said grand child was born as she was totally out of control. They were allowed to roam around the estate- the pair of them up to there own devices no training or guidance what so ever. He & his mother were just shouted at and told to get out of the way all the time ( not in a nice way lots of swearing involved) or go and lie down rather a sad life really. 

When he moved in with us I fell in love with his little personality so decided to keep him. He is the brother of my 5 yr old dog Tinkerbell but has more of a lab trait that terrier.

He has become a lot better loves his walks, greeting strange dogs he's great now, before he would be very fearful. I just need to learn how to help him relax more in the home he sometimes acts like I'm going to beat him up! Most paranoid dog I've ever come across. He did a while back snap at my son on 2 occasions (he's 15) but my lad was over cuddling him which freaked him out, so since talking to  my son Starsky has stopped that and has been really good hasn't happened again.  

Poor boy, he obviously has little trust  in humans, not surprisingly.

I wouldn't do the actual ignoring him, but I would ignore his jumping up etc & as soon as he stops & I would use a clicker & click & treat to reward the behaviour. clickers for training things like jumping up because most dogs(& cats LOL)seem to pick things up very quickly using them.

Will he let you stroke him ? You could try some massage(like T Touch)to release his own endorphins to help him relax

Thanks for the tips.

Have been reading on-line about this T touch very strange not sure if doing it right, tried it on my old 2 and they just lay there not moving?.
I have a clicker here as brought it for snoop years ago for his training. Only problem is snoop remembers it so well, when I click he comes a running! lol.

I will have a one 2 one with Starsk and see how he improves-I think having 3 now I just let them all hang out together, so will try and get him alone as he really does just follow his sister for everything luckily for me she is the best trained of them all. 

> very strange not sure if doing it right, tried it on my old 2 and they just lay there not moving?.

Sounds good to me, it makes them relax & I've had dogs(& cats)go to sleep whilst sitting up doing it! It has helped my Jessie as she came with loads of issues from not being physically abused, but mentally abused by being kept kennelled /crated for the first 14 months of her life(except for toiletting/drinking(I jest not)/training). She is a spinner when she gets excited, so before we go out she has TT to reduce her OTT behaviour