I agree regarding designer crosses and puppy farming, Marianne, but I think we have to acknowledge there is a world outside breeding for the ring.  Not just working dogs but, it would seem, variations that differ from the show type that the public have an affection for and seek out rather than accidentally end up with due to bad breeding to type :-) 
If people are ensuring that they are as equally healthy as show bred dogs and they, presumably, strive to ensure they conform to their type, thus ensuring that people are not simply buying a pig in a poke as the designer crosses are, then I am not sure on what ethical grounds we can object.

Of course I hate GSDs, that why I bought my first German bred GSD in 1958 & plan to get another from the next litter my German friend, who lives in Germany, breeds.

If you are a serious GSD person then you should know what the Korung or Breed Survey is. An impartial assessment of the dogs against the breed standard that includes a working test, without which German GSD's offspring cannot be registered.

Why wouldn't I want a longcoat GSD or a dog from unqualified parents if it was the last GSD in the world-because they are not my idea of a GSD Simple as that, if I wanted a longcoated pet dog I would have another Bearded Collie, not a GSD QED

>pssst - You could be sorry you asked ;-)  (off to batten down the hatches)

:-P

> If you are a serious GSD person then you should know what the Korung or Breed Survey is

Some of the posters on this thread may not want to be 'serious', if they dont intend to breed then just enjoying a healthy pet if good enough. Next we'll be told that every gundog owner must be serious about gunsport and all whippets owners must race. 

If people are ensuring that they are as equally healthy as show bred dogs and they, presumably, strive to ensure they conform to their type, thus ensuring that people are not simply buying a pig in a poke as the designer crosses are, then I am not sure on what ethical grounds we can object.

To me, the ethical grounds are using breeding dogs as a business. They're not cows.

> To me, the ethical grounds are using breeding dogs as a business.

I think you mean unethical :-)  
I would not condone that either but what have we to assume that is the case? 

Yes I do -sometimes the language does get me, don't forget I'm typing in a foreign language. :) But Isabel, I replied to a post saying something like "If the customers demand something, why not supply it?" and this is my entire point. That's not how dog breeding works unless you're a puppy farmer. Regardless of the purpose you breed for, be it showing or working. You don't breed because you can sell -that should never be the reason.

Ah I see.  Yes I would agree with that.

> "If the customers demand something, why not supply it?" and this is my entire point. That's not how dog breeding works unless you're a puppy farmer. Regardless of the purpose you breed for, be it showing or working. You don't breed because you can sell -that should never be the reason.

I totally agree, however in this want it, produce it, buy it now society the"customers" expect puppies to be available like cans of beans on the shelves in supermarket & the puppy farmer, pet breeder etc are ready & willing to supply. We have one of these coming to our training club tonight :-(

Hi I have been following this post and did not intend to get involved in the debate but I feel I should point out that I am a member of the ABS and its main aim is to promote healthy dogs,no mention of breed standards just the requirement to only breed from health tested animals. I breed long coat GSD'S and ALL my dogs have undergone the relevant health tests. My puppies go to pet homes where they are loved and adored. Pet owners want a happy healthy well balanced dog to be part of their family,they dont want to undertake serious schutzhund work and they certainly dont want the high drive dogs that are associated with that sport. In the USA there is a growing trend for such dogs and according to some forums there are trainers who will do everything they can including the use of electric collars to get their dogs qualified. If that is what being a serious GSD person involves then you can leave me out!! My dogs to the average person are long coats but they are actually medium length stock coats and they have the dense undercoat which true long coats do not have.

well said roscoebabe

Thanks I simply wanted to get back to the basics of the ABS. It has taken a lot of flack but it is at least trying to raise the standards of dog breeding and welfare and there has to be a starting point for everything. I know that some people have joined the scheme and opted out but surely the only way to improve things is from within? If we as breeders do not strive to improve the health of our dogs volountarally sooner or later the government will introduce legislations  to regulate for us and that is something I certainly do not want to see happen. You only have to look at the dreadful Dangerous Dogs Act to see the perils of that route

yes roscoebabe i agree .