I agree Saxon. I saw lame, cow hocked, weak hocks, plaiting. :-(  I personally prefer the look of GSDs that I have seen pictures of from 20 years ago and more - they have a slope to the back but not cow hocks and a pelvis that sags, and they look like they could do the job they were bred to do.

>>The topline is required to slope from withers to tail so that when the dog gaits it can do so with minimal effort. This is the gait required to allow the GSD to do it's job as a herding breed.

So all herding breeds need to have toplines like a GSD? I don't recall seeing other herding breeds looking like their back legs are half the length of the front legs! I know that the odd stacking position accentuates the back, and on several of those pictures we've had links to the dog would actually look a lot more normal if stood foursquare. But some of them really do look out of proportion and near-crippled to me as a non-GSD expert. Sorry!

> So all herding breeds need to have toplines like a GSD?

No but then all herding breeds don't work the same stock or in the same way. Just as there are differences between gundog breeds.

That was truly ghastly to watch, my OH watched the first minute or so and didn't want to watch any more. My first GSD who had both of her hips replaced didn't look that bad before she had surgery. It puts any argument about colour and coat into the shade doesn't it!.

I have read through the thread and have to mention MM's particularly defensive and unnecessarily sarcastic comments and attacks throughout. I refer to her in the third person as she has abandoned the thread now. It strikes me as a case of 'the lady doth protest too much'. By which I mean that if we boil it right down, most of this damage has been done by German breeding, whether show line or otherwise, and making snide remarks about the breed name is frankly silly in the face of that video. 

In fact, Germany and the SV are primarily responsible for the 'drive for drive' or 'push for push' as it has been described, that has resulted in this unnatural construction.

There can be no excuse in the world, bad handling, bad camera angle etc, nor any attack on 'Alsatians' or linking to long-coat shepherd sites that can begin to defend the dogs in that video. Certainly the alsatian 'types' as she likes to refer to them appear to have a strong back and hind legs, if I had to choose a roach backed dog like those in the video or one of the english types I know which I would choose. In fact, one of MM's attempts at sarcasm may have been the best suggestion of all - throw away the breed standard and start again. It may be the only way to overcome this 'kennel blindness' especially as the breed standard does not condone the roach back that has become prevalent. I am quite sure that the founder of the breed would turn in his grave to see his vision turned into such a caricature.

There can be no denying that film, nor that one of the dogs whose movement was filmed (and which was beyond description) was awarded the class. It is in my book criminal to even attempt to deflect/defend this.

It would be interesting to know the pedigree of the dogs involved - anyone? MM?

As someone said earlier on in the thread, responsibility should be taken and recrimination set aside in order to restore this once magnificent breed. That I fear won't happen with the prejudice such as MM displays. Restoring the breed may mean standing back, really SEEING and keeping an open mind on how best to correct the damage. That could even mean introducing some English lines to eliminate the problem, whilst keeping the gene pool nice and open, but I just don't think that the 'die hards' could bring themselves to even consider it, certainly based on MM's rantings about 'alsatians'.   Some but by no means all of the working lines are much better, but if you go back to before 1990 there were some cracking dogs all round. That's where it seemed to really go wrong.

I just don't understand how anyone can find this acceptable, let alone judges in the breed. I would rather see the breed die out altogether than reduce it to this.

>Working GSDs do not belong in the show ring they belong doing what they are bred to do i.e. work !

GSD's in total do not belong in the ring irrespective of lineage; they all belong doing what they were bred to do - work.  That includes showlines that can show but above all can work.  The GSD is a working breed, first and foremost and to create one split to show and another to work, and another for something else is really defeating the object and was not the founder's original objective for this breed. 

>Don't forget these dogs are in UK & as an entry atypical of the dogs seen at the Sieger & in other shows in Germany.

Which dogs?  The dogs on the PDE footage?  I know who these dogs are as you do too MM; both are bred from West German Show bloodlines.  One is an import; the other is from Germany.  This is full GSD West German Show line breeding.  It's not the UK that are soley responsible for breeding dogs like this; UK Germanic show breeders regularly use VA dogs in Germany for continuation of the top show bloodlines.  This is how these bloodlines are going, some worse than others depending on the combinations used.  That said; I've seen some lovely show line bitches with good stability in the hindquarters in show fairly recently.   All home bred I might add with the exception of 1 import.

>The problem with the show GSDs in the UK is they are not really trained other than to walk, trot & gait at the ned of the lead.

The problem with show line GSD's in Germany and the UK is that a lot of them are practically on their hocks. 

Thank heavens we have what appears to be a large amount of folk left in the breed including the working fraternity, JP and many show line folk themselves that can see the faults in these dogs and it's only a minority from what I can gather, that resorts to excuses and rationalisation.  The breed may still have a chance.

Hi Kat,

Haven't been on CD much, been mega busy; have you heard that the SV are thinking about bringing long coats back in?

>Some but by no means all of the working lines are much better, but if you go back to before 1990 there were some cracking dogs all round. That's where it seemed to really go wrong.

It really seemed to start going downhill around 30 years ago and certainly the division of the working and show lines has not helped.  Showlines are bottlenecked and the working lines aren't far behind.  The only way out of this IMO is to gently blend both lines. 

I see a particular die hard show breeder is calling for a compulsary conformation test at working trials.  Now why would he be interested in that unless he had plans to bring in working lines without changing the conformation to the point where the dog would not win in the ring?  The working fraternity are having none of it BTW.  It's a difficult one and certainly a separate conformation test may be useful for those who want to go that way and for others who wish to blend working and showlines.  However, the question is - is it best for the breed?  Not at working trials I don't think.

Maybe they will grow the coats to cover the hocks and hope no-one will be any the wiser