The international FCI standard is not that different for requirements.

Coat
Condition of the hair
The correct type of haircoat for the German Shepherd Dog is the Stockhaar (straight, harsh topcoat) with undercoat. The topcoat should be as tight as possible, straight, harsh, and lying closely and firmly. On the head between the ears, on the front side of the legs, and on paws and toes it is short; at the neck somewhat longer and more abundant. On the backs of the legs the hair grows longer as far down as the wrist, and correspondingly down to the hock. At the back side of the thighs it forms moderate trousers.

 

Colors
Black with reddish-brown, brown, tan, and/or light gray markings. Solid black. Sable with dark overcast. Black saddle and mask.

Inconspicuous, small white chest markings, likewise light color on the insides, are allowed but not desirable. The nose bulb must be black in all colors of the breed. Missing mask, light (piercing) eye color, as well as light to whitish markings at chest and under/inner sides, light claws, and red-tipped tail are to be considered as deficient pigment. The undercoat has a light gray color. The color white is not permitted.

Though of course the FCI standards do list disqualifying points.

> i read this topic with interest and these are my opinions,  i started showing, training and breeding gsd's 25 years ago, they were black and tan, and at the time i was completely against whites.  over the next few years i had servere problems with haemophillia.  i also know of people who had dwaffs in their litters and hips that were 106 in total (all from black and tan), some temprements were shot to bits, nervious, windy or aggressive,  lots of dogs had missing teeth or soft ears,  and then there was auto immune disease and pancriatic dificency, (still all black and tans).  i am NOT by any means saying that ALL black and tans have all these problems but that there are a lot of problems that need to be corrected as i know that a lot of these faults still exsist.
> as for whites my best friend has got whites and has had for over 25 years and in that time i have decided you should'nt judge a book by its cover ( or coat colour ), she has never had a problem with hips, in fact all of hers have had hips scores of 3 -3 or below and one of her stud dogs has produced 2 with hips score of 0 - 0  and 2 with 1 - 1,  the stud dogs are all tested clear for haemophillia,  the temprements are sound and all dogs and bitches have good undercoats.

Well the same can be said for the white, longcoats, other non standard colours that either come through rescue or I met elsewhere. If she has managed to reduce her dogs & puppies hip scores to all being under 6, only using white dogs she must have been very lucky. It must be a good while since the two 0 hip scores where produced as I don't think any have been recorded in the last three/four years that haven't been from German bloodlines & been of correct coat colour & type. All German stud dogs have to be Haemophilia tested normal before they are bred from, they all have to be fully health tested & also assessed against the breed standard & prove that they have courage & working ability before they are bred from-it's not just done it the owner fancies it, it is required by the SV's very strict breeding rules & all litters are checked by the breed wardens for health, environs condition, temperament etc before they are tattooed & if anything is wrong the puppies are not tattooed & therefore cannot be registered with the SV(& in Germany that makes the puppies almost worthless)until they are rechecked & everything is deemed correct

I'm not blinkered I know that there are poor breeders of dogs bred to the breed standard, but these are a very small majority. I prefer black GSDs to any other colour with my second favourite being the grays. I very much doubt my next GSD will be black, far more likely gray or black & gold/tan, however he will come from fully health tested parents that meet the breed standard & are very definitely "fit for purpose"(LOL he will be part trained when I get him as he will be bred by my friend in Germany & will be 10 months old when he arrives)

Well this is the SV standard disqualifying faults

Dentition faults:

All deviations from the scissors bite and the formation of the teeth that are not dealt with in the following list of specific faults. Disqualifying Faults (also ineligible for breed survey): a) Weak character, biting, nervous; b) Demonstrated severe hip dysplasia c) Cryptorchidism (unilateral or bilateral), clearly unequal or stunted, atrophied testicles; d) Deformed ears or tails; e) Dogs with deformities; f) Dentition faults involving the absence of: one P-3 and another tooth, or one fang (canine), or one P-4, or one Molar-1 or Molar-2, or any total of three or more teeth; g) Incisor (bite) irregularities: overshot by 2mm or more, undershot, or pincer bite (even or level in entire incisor area); h) Oversize by more than one centimeter; i) Albinism; j) White haircoat even if the dog has dark eyes and nails; k) Langstockhaar (topcoat long, straight, soft, not lying tightly; with undercoat present; flags (feathering) on ears and legs, bushy trousers, bushy tail with formation of flags on the underside); l) Langhaar (topcoat long, soft; without undercoat, generally parting in the middle of the back; flags at ears, legs, and tail).

So the dogs that are White/Blue etc Longcoats are disqaulified from the breed survey & hence cannot have offspring registered with the SV. This means that few of the so popular here in the UK LC, Whites etc bred in German, as they cannot be sold for high prices

> All German stud dogs have to be Haemophilia tested normal before they are bred from, they all have to be fully health tested & also assessed against the breed standard & prove that they have courage & working ability before they are bred from-it's not just done it the owner fancies it, it is required by the SV's very strict breeding rules & all litters are checked by the breed wardens for health, environs condition, temperament etc before they are tattooed & if anything is wrong the puppies are not tattooed & therefore cannot be registered with the SV(& in Germany that makes the puppies almost worthless)until they are rechecked & everything is deemed correct
>

i have to say that for when we get my bf's gsd (future plans) we are not going to do so till we are living in germany as i love that such stingent requirements are in place- i think it makes it far more safe purchising

> i have to say that for when we get my bf's gsd (future plans) we are not going to do so till we are living in germany as i love that such stingent requirements are in place- i think it makes it far more safe purchising

OOOh let me know & I'll give you my friend's contact details, she's lovely(speaks brill English)& has some super dogs bearing her kennel name

>> OOOh let me know & I'll give you my friend's contact details, she's lovely(speaks brill English)& has some super dogs bearing her kennel name

that would be lovely, thanks. it's a long way in the future (at least a couple of years, but thats all to the good, plenty study time :)) and i certainly will be picking your brains on it :)

liam is very supportive about my wanting to get lots of dogs later and go into showing but his buy off is that he always gets a dog thats 'his' and he wants a gsd, he loves them (black and tans mm, he's not keen on the whites at all! i've also made him promise that either he or i will do something with the dog, agility or flyball or something). given that we intend to move to germany to finish studying i'd far rather get one there than navigate the minefield it would be in this country! the difference between most of the ones i've seen here and the german lined ones i've seen is usually extremely obvious even to a non gsd person like me.

have you seen the Panda Shepherd Dog, Tri colour. I wonder how long it will be before we seem them in the UK?

no, do you have a link? sounds funny lookin

kim, you might want to direct him to the dundee alsation club if he is wanting some info locally about where to source a dog.  I think it is mainly training and shows they do but they may be able to help him out.

I would like to see our standards have the disqualifying faults too.

> no, do you have a link? sounds funny lookin

American Panda GSDs They also come in Black & White

thats a good idea :)

!??!?!?

sorry but that looks just...well rubbish.

LOL! I was so disappointed too :-) I was expecting a dog that looked like a panda, like the chow that somebody dyed.

Looks like a Border collie got in there some generations back.

> Looks like a Border collie got in there some generations back.

yes. you can see the gsd and you can see the collie but it looks sort of disproportionate to me- might be the way the colour makes it look.

There's a white GSD in our local park, he is stunningly beautiful! I think it's a shame to disqualify any dog of any breed just on grounds of colour. :-(

Then what is the point of a breed standard?

Why should I not show a Red Elkhound (some liver pigmented ones have turned up in the USA) or ones with floppy ears, straight tails etc.

These dogs can be loved but should not be deliberately bred for or shown in the conformation ring.

Yes, there are whites born into standard colour litters - fact. There are also some very good white breeders out there. They love the breed, but happen to prefer whites (and perhaps even, god forbid, a long coat too), but still breed for conformation and temperament.  I personally am not a big fan of whites, or sables for that matter. It's personal preference thing for me I prefer solid black (one of which I have)

However, I do agree that a lot of 'people' jumped on the white bandwagon, and bred some poor examples of type and temperament. I wasn't aware of a particular epilepsy lproblem in whites, but know of countless examples of it in standard colour/coat. Our trainer had a beautiful standard colour coat & type bitch from good german lines. She lost her at just under 3 years, as she went into a fit and they couldn't get her out of it - she was devastated.

Do be careful of people who will twist all the facts about GSD's to suit their argument, and make it look as though anything non standard is riddled with health and temperament problems BECAUSE they aren't the right colour, coat or type. Many problems exist in the breed as it stands, it is simply a case of researching a pedigree when you have found a breeder that produces the type of dog being sought. As qwerty said, there are some white breeders producing some excellent hips, type and temperament out there. Nervousness and/or aggression is also not limited to whites or long coats either. In fact most of these problems originated in normal lines.

The white and long coat shepherd society WALCSS, is a good place to look. I know and have met many fabulous whites, particularly from one breeder on there who is in the Midlands. pm me if you wish to know that breeders affix.

There is no health reason for not breeding whites, but your friend needs to go to a GOOD white breeder, and they do exist despite what some say.

Kat

>There is no health reason for not breeding whites, but your friend needs to go to a GOOD white breeder, and they do exist despite what some say.

The GSD is s German breed & as such should be bred to the standard(in health, temperaments etc)that they are in their homeland

If you want a white, blue, skye blue with yellow dots longcoated dog, they develop your own breed & do not call them GSDs.

It is a fact that people who breed without reference to a breed standard care little for the finer points of the breed, ie if they don't care about anything but the coat colour & type they they do not care about the true GSD.

Why don't the "ethical"white breeders submit their dogs for an impartial breed survey ? Not just show them at a WALCS shows. An impartial survey compares not just the colour & coat, but also the dimensions of the dogs & it's health status. Ergo their fitness for function.

Whites are rarely found nowadays in litter from parents who do not have white in their bloodlines close up. They do not occur in Germany, because previous white dogs have been excluded from the gene pool & as the white factored dogs get further & further behind the current breeding dogs then the occurrences get fewer & fewer.

Unlike here in the UK where the white factored dogs are actually line bred to by some people(who do not realise what they are doing because they only look at the last 5 generations)frighteningly some of these current generation of dogs have up to 50 + lines going back Quadrille & his mother. I do know breed specialist who researches epileptic dogs pedigrees & she is really horrified that people are breeding without an in-depth knowledge of their dogs.

My friend has what can only be called a black & pale gray(almost white)rescue bitch & she doesn't resemble a good GSD & yes guess what she has epilepsy ! Almost certainly bred from white factored parents(more likely white to colour paled correct coated)as she has the characteristic weak head & long muzzle

chinablue i could not said better myself.

and your example of a epileptic dog proves what?? maybe it would be of some relevance if no standard coat gsds suffered from epilepsy but they do and there are lots out there so your point isnt really valid- you cant say that the epilepsy came from white lines- how do you know that? i think people on here are wrongly giving the impression that standard coat gsds dont suffer from epilepsy or health problems. THEY DO and all those people involved with gsds know they do so why are you jumping on the white gsd health bandwagon- show us some PROOF that whites are more unhealthy than standard coats- can you? no i dont think so.
I am under no illusion that all whites are perfect-they are not but neither are standards they all have genetic problems in the breed whether it be hd ed or epilepsy or any other and obviously only breeding away from these problems and omitting them from lines will there be an improvment as you all know but what makes you think (or apparently know) that all white breeders dont do this?
so again i say- show us proof

Oh, I'm quite sure that germany has eradicated whatever they don't want from their bloodlines with the fervour so typical to their nation. You know my opinions MM, and they do conflict with yours. Some experts in the field, including Fred Lanting believe that Germany has in itself ruined the GSD, and I agree. Therefore I don't believe they are always right, but typically they and their devotees do. Not everyone wishes to be ruled by the breeds 'homeland'.

Other countries which developed different breeds don't try and exert this iron control, and many of these breeds have developed along the way. For good or ill is another story, but nonetheless without this peculiar desire to be the only people who can and should have any 'claim' to the breed.

Breed surveys as per the SV are not the be all and end all, and not everyone subscribes to their dictates, nor wants to. If I had the most perfect example of the GSD ever born on this earth I would not want to be a part of the SV, so I don't think it at all relevant that you suggest that they put their dogs forward for an impartial breed survey.  What you state as fact is in fact your own 'map of the world' and is blinkered by the doctrines of the SV. Are you saying that there are no 'ethical' (your words) white breeders out there? Are you saying that they don't conform to the whole breed standard except for coat? How do you know?  As ever you are the master of the sweeping statement!

I have recently been hearing of some problems with the German dogs, which is being kept low profile, but it includes dogs dying at an alarmingly young age, just as you hear about white GSDs with epilepsy. As I said, I hear of more standard shepherds with epilepsy, which naturally, you don't comment upon.

I really do have an issue with anyone who puts forward only the information which shows everything except that which THEY believe in, to be wrong, and is unable to concede that ANY of these dogs could be a good example of the breed, other than colour. I feel that is unfair to posters who at the end of the day are looking for a good pet dog, as most people are.  I would be perfectly happy to call these dogs something other than GSD's, just to satisfy Germany and the disciples of the SV, and not to have this continuing pointless debate.

Never hear of a black and pale grey, that's a new one on me.

I know nothing about breeding and showing GSD's but I have owned a white GSD. He was from rescue, I know nothing of his breeding but he was the most fantastic dog and to this day much missed. He was approx 3 yrs old when he came to me, his temperament was exceptional, he was very responsive to training (basic stuff nothing fancy !!), totally reliable in livestock and was exceptionally fit and healthy. He only ever visited the vet for annual health check/vaccinations. He was PTS at approx 14yrs old when his arthritis became so advanced his quality of life begain to suffer.  If I was ever to get another GSD I would look for a white .. probably not a very PC thing to admit to but sometimes my heart is allowed to rule !!

K

I will quite happily call my blue and gold and blue sable GSD's, GSD's because this is exactly what they are!!!  My blue sable girl was the only one of that colour in a litter of black & golds...so does that mean she isn't a true GSD?!  She has a fantastic temperament and is the soundest of GSD's we've had over the last 20 years and she couldn't have come from a more wonderful breeder.  We also have her half brother who is the Blue and Gold...yet again no health problems, fantastic temperament.

Staff: I agree with you that they are GSD's, but apparently we deeply offend some people by doing so! Mine are the right colour but the wrong coat! I don't really care what they are called, just so long as I can have one :)

KLB: No it's not very 'PC', but why should we be PC? Look where that has got us so far. Wonderful, you are living, breathing proof of the existence of a well bred, healthy, long lived and good temperamented WHITE GSD. Some people would have us believe such a thing doesn't exist.

yes, i might add that my white boy is a winner in the agility ring-he must be so unhealthy!

We have a blue sable, a silver sable and a black (Hi Kat!) - all non breed standard but all GSDs.  All three compete in agility and obedience with varying degrees of success.  They may all be non standard, especially my black, long coat bitch, but none were bred to show, in fact the two sables are working dog from Czech/German lines, would I get anything in the show ring no, do I love them as much as my parents' perfect, black and tan show dog.... yes.
Oh, my Dad also has a white GSD.  Nine years old, perfectly healthy, old-fashioned, English square backed.  Again non standard but he is a wonderful dog, completely bomb-proof and (touch wood) very healthy.

> We have a blue sable, a silver sable and a black (Hi Kat!) - all non breed standard

Since when has black been a non standard GSD colour ????

Moon,
If you read her post in its entirety, the Black is non standard due to coat length (rather than its colour) :)

That isn't what the first sentence infers. it infers that all the colours are non standard-mind you I had an Alsatian judge tell me the black GSD I was showing was an undesirable colour in Alsatians(his words)good job the judge of the breed was more enlightened as she won the CC that day

Oh mine also have the wrong coat aswell lol!  Any GSD's I have owned or will own will be long haired.

Staff: I agree with you that they are GSD's, but apparently we deeply offend some people by doing so! Mine are the right colour but the wrong coat! I don't really care what they are called, just so long as I can have one

KLB: No it's not very 'PC', but why should we be PC? Look where that has got us so far. Wonderful, you are living, breathing proof of the existence of a well bred, healthy, long lived and good temperamented WHITE GSD. Some people would have us believe such a thing doesn't exist.

There are always black sheep lol!  What has been put down on this particular thread is actually the fact that MANY people are breeding for the MONEY, in all breeds of course but particularly when there is a fad.  I condemn the breeding of labradoodles purely bacause the majority of them are from untested stock, are unreliable and then end up in shelters.  As I have stated, the white GSD's up here in Aberdeen all appear to be of poor temperament but are more than likely from one of our many puppy farms. If you have been fortunate enough to find quality dogs then good on you, but it is probably down to the dogs themselves, not their breeding.  But I think what is being condemned here is the irresponsible breeding aspect.

> I'm quite sure that germany has eradicated whatever they don't want from their bloodlines with the fervour so typical to their nation

I am not German, although do currently live in Germany and I personally find remarks such as this highly inflammatory and totally unnecessary. And to be perfectly honest irrelevant to this discussion.

Hi there

I would like to tell you about my White German Shepherd dog who I lost at the age of 13 1/2 two years ago.

I always wanted a German shepherd as my uncle had had them previously and were lovely dogs, I particulary was keen to own a white one after seeing and loving "Thorn" in the film "The Lost Boys" .
I eventually found a litter and picked my bundle of fur!

This was the loveliest dog Ive owned.

He was white but as he got older his coat turned cream, he was a big strong boy with excellent bone and a proper GSD coat, he was the "Old fashioned" type or what I believe to the correct type and was constructed very well, he had a strong back end and stood four square!! None of this roachback, sagging back end turning out of hocks business

He had the most fantastic temperament!  He would let the cats eat from his bowl at the same time as him, even lick his bone while he was eating it, he loved and greeted visitors with a kiss and loved other dogs, to the point he would even allow me to take in other dogs off the street (which I did a few times) and he was an adult entire male at this stage , he is the only dog ive known to accept this without a growl

My boy was a real clown and a mummys boy, he lived to a grand age and NEVER had an ill day in his life, in fact he only ever visited the vets once (apart from boosters) when a neighbour let her rottweiller out and it ran over to us as we were going out and attacked him, it made a mess of his eye and we had to go and get it seen to, the vet remarked what a good dog he was allowing her to prod about in his eye even though he was in pain.

I was so proud of my boy and consider he was a real ambassador the the GSD breed whether or not his colour was correct to the breed standard or not

Elizabeth

sounds like you had a lovely friend there :)

> If you have been fortunate enough to find quality dogs then good on you, but it is probably down to the dogs themselves, not their breeding.

I disagree, this is entirely their breeding, as white enthusiasts are as passionate as the next person about their breed.

> I am not German, although do currently live in Germany and I personally find remarks such as this highly inflammatory and totally unnecessary. And to be perfectly honest irrelevant to this discussion.

It is very relevant to the discussion in view of some of the comments made. Also, if you have ever read the rules of the SV you would understand entirely what I mean, and perhaps the context would be clearer.  It wasn't intended to offend, just my opinion.
Hi Jayne - where did the silver sable come from?? Hope you are all doing well. Hope to meet you again on the agility circuit sometime. Look out for Indy with Glen, they will be competing 'properly' this year - well Indy will anyway :)

Lovely to hear about these white shepherds that disprove the disparaging statements made against them.

Kat

Kat

> Oh, I'm quite sure that germany has eradicated whatever they don't want from their bloodlines with the fervour so typical to their nation

i am not german either but am more than a little offended by that statement. there are several posters on the forum who reside in germany and i am sure such statements would cause them concern to.

anyway, back to the subject...now i'm asking these questions not to challange you but to get both points of view.

if white dogs cannot work german sheep as they were originally bred to do why should people deliberately produce them? if people are so determined to breed whites why not do so within the remits of the swiss shepherd dog?

out of interest do the 'normal' gsd lines with epilepsy have whites of the known epileptic carrying line in their pedigrees? or a common root?

I have to say I took that as a reference to their reputation of precision and thoroughness in such areas as engineering.

so how many standard coat gsds do you see herding???

I would reply the same to you Astarte - read the rules of the SV and you will understand the context. Also I don't believe my opinion to be inaccurate. What is it about the statement that causes you concern? The history of the German Shepherd Dog itself states that the founder, Max Von Stephanitz was 'ruthless' about eradicating certain points from the dog as it was being developed. Isabel has seen the statement very differently.

> if white dogs cannot work german sheep as they were originally bred to do why should people deliberately produce them?

Why produce Labradors if people aren't going to go shooting with them? Why produce dalmatians at all since carriages are now obsolete? Why produce a bull mastiff unless you intend to trail down, tackle and hold poachers I could go on and on through virtually every breed. How many dogs are used for the purpose originally intended? Most are companion animals and this is why colour (IMO) should be irrelevant unless it is a health issue, as in deafness.  The KC breed standards are outdated in this regard, as a minority of animals are 'worked' or used for their original purpose. I don't mean that the dog shouldn't still be bred to be fit for purpose, I believe they should, but colour is a very different issue.

> if white dogs cannot work german sheep as they were originally bred to do why should people deliberately produce them? if people are so determined to breed whites why not do so within the remits of the swiss shepherd dog?

This is a quote from a Swiss Shepherd Dog site:
White Shepherds both in Australia and overseas, and White Swiss Shepherds, are breeds that have developed over time from purebred White German Shepherd Dogs.  They have not been mixed with any other breed of dog to obtain the white coat colour.  The first dog to be registered as a German Shepherd Dog was Horand Von Grafrath. His maternal grandfather was a white dog, named Grief.  The white gene has been around since the very beginning of the German Shepherd Dog breed! German Shepherds have many natural colour variations other than Black and Tan.


So it's really a case of 'what's in a name?'  The white swiss shepherd society accept long coats too :)

I do not know where exactly epilepsy originated from. I would be very interested if anyone were able to produce evidence that it was a white line. I do know that haemophilia was introduced through one german standard dog, but nobody called for black and tan to be eliminated from the breed. It should be a case of breeding away from a particular line if a problem is discovered there. I think the implication that it was from a particular colour, is a 'red herring' and was just used to further denigrate white GSD's.

There have always been a wide variety of coat colour in the German Shepherd dog. It has been the founder of the breed who exerted his influence to exclude certain aspects (including colour) that HE didn't want and thereby create a 'standard'.

Phew...
Kat

> read the rules of the SV and you will understand the context

what is the sv- if you've read the full thread you know i started this to finf out about white gsd's for a friend, they are not a breed i am familar with at all.

> What is it about the statement that causes you concern?

the, possibly misinterpreted, reference to darker askpects of germanies history, as i am sure you guessed. if this was incorrect i apologise but given that breehant (i think it was?) also took against the statement perhaps the wording could have been clearer.

>> if white dogs cannot work german sheep as they were originally bred to do why should people deliberately produce them?
> Why produce Labradors if people aren't going to go shooting with them? Why produce dalmatians at all since carriages are now obsolete? Why produce a bull mastiff unless you intend to trail down, tackle and hold poachers I could go on and on through virtually every breed.

you misunderstood my question- people breed labradors that should in theory be able to work a shoot, i would never buy a bullmastiff from a line that could not work in its inital purpose if say i was miraculously transported back to the 18th century and suddenly became landed gentry. we all wish to breed a dog that is fit for purspose- granted they do not always act to that purpose anymore but that is why they are and it should be respected and maintained else why have breeds at all?

personally i don't feel a dog is worthless if it doesn't meet a breed standard- its still probably a wonderful animal. however, i think that such traits that are undesirable in a breed should not be pursued UNLESS a sound reason can be given.

> The white gene has been around since the very beginning of the German Shepherd Dog breed! German Shepherds have many natural colour variations other than Black and Tan

i didn't think otherwise but if the dog can't do its job because of it- whether its a case of the sheep won't work for the dog or the dogs coat can't keep out the weather as in long coats (which dissapointed me for the future as i actually prefer the long coat look) why pursue that apparently useless gene.

> It has been the founder of the breed who exerted his influence to exclude certain aspects (including colour) that HE didn't want and thereby create a 'standard'.
>

um, don't all breed founders do this?

Not using the word eradicate though, Although I have worked with and alongside them and yes they are very thorough in their work.

> the, possibly misinterpreted, reference to darker askpects of germanies history, as i am sure you guessed. if this was incorrect i apologise but given that breehant (i think it was?) also took against the statement perhaps the wording could have been clearer.
>

Ditto Kim :)

Lots of correct GSDs work sheep in Germany & have done for a long long time. They have their own herding trials, which are nothing like the ISDS Sheepdog trials here in the UK. Sheep farming in Germany is still quite traditional, with the GSDs being used to take the sheep from pasture to pasture & also to keep the sheep restricted to the grazing area designated by the shepherd. You do not see LC non standard coloured dogs working sheep in Germany, because all GSDs that are responsibly bred are SV registered

They are not used here in the UK because the sheep breeds are suited to the dogs bred to work them.

> out of interest do the 'normal' gsd lines with epilepsy have whites of the known epileptic carrying line in their pedigrees? or a common root

They tend to have the common ancestors such as Hendrawen's Quadrille of Eveley & Ingo vom Piastendamm, Ingo via Avon Prince of Alumvale who was the Grandson of a known epilepsy producer Ingosohn of Erol certainly the "English"type still have multiple lines going back to Avon Prince & also Quadrille

There are several other lines, all of which go back to dogs in Germany obviously, however the difference being that the SV has bred away from these dogs & so bred away from the problem, the lines back to these dogs have been removed from the gene pool, just as with Border Collies the ISDS breed away from dogs with eye conditions(although the arrival DNA tests for genetic conditions these dogs offspring can be brought back into the gene pool by breeding only from normal or carrier off spring to normal partners)

thats really interesting moonmaiden, thanks.

>Most are companion animals and this is why colour (IMO) should be irrelevant unless it is a health issue, as in deafness.  The KC breed standards are outdated in this regard, as a minority of animals are 'worked' or used for their original purpose.

That may not be an unreasonable viewpoint however, the white gene has been bred out by the majority of breeders in the UK and likewise when one emphasis colour as the predominate factor in their GSD breeding programme, where do you go a few years down the line?  Because there aren't many to choose from and then we end up with bottlenecks, inbreeding depression and health problems.  When colour takes precedence, health, temperament and conformation have to take second place. 

Why breed whites anyway?  What for? A GSD coated dog whether it's sable, black, black & tan, black & gold is just a much a dog as a white.  Give me a genetically healthy long living GSD any day, colour is an afterthought.

> Why breed whites anyway?  What for? A GSD coated dog whether it's sable, black, black & tan, black & gold is just a much a dog as a white.  Give me a genetically healthy long living GSD any day, colour is an afterthought.  

I agree to some degree, but all of our pedigree dogs have been selectively bred for colour which ends in being the breed standard. Had Max Von Stephanitz decided that white was the best colour to select for, that would now be the breed standard and we may be arguing that blacks were inferior :)

> There are several other lines, all of which go back to dogs in Germany obviously, however the difference being that the SV has bred away from these dogs & so bred away from the problem

All good breeders of whatever colour dog are able to breed away from problem lines, and certainly should and do. My issue here is the posts which imply that all white GSDs are poor examples of the breed and riddled with health problems. That is certainly not the case. 

White shepherds also can and do herd sheep http://www.awsaclub.com/howtodo/herding.htm.

>but all of our pedigree dogs have been selectively bred for colour which ends in being the breed standard. Had Max Von Stephanitz decided that white was the best colour to select for, that would now be the breed standard and we may be arguing that blacks were inferior :)

That was a long time ago Katt, things have moved on and we can only do the best for our breed based on what we have got to work with at this current time.  The point is that white is not the breed standard and the majority of GSD breeders in the UK have bred away from the white gene thus reducing the amount of available stock for white GSD breeders to throw white puppies. 

If all GSD breeders decided that colour was not an issue and mixed the whites with the colours and the odd white puppy was produced, then fair enough.  But that's not going to happen, anytime soon anyhow. 

I cannot see that it is best for the breed to have so many divisions and splits which only end up in bottlenecks, inbreeding depression and more health problems.  And what does sadden me is the drive created by JP for specifically coloured dogs outside the breed standard - white, blues, livers etc, etc, etc, which only serves to fuel PF whose aim is to make money, not for the overall good of the breed.  I am not saying all white breeders are like that, I'm sure some fully believe in what they are doing but I cannot see the purpose.  Why breed at all if one does not want to improve the breed as a whole, it should be the one and only reason for breeding IMO, not to supply JP with pets because they like a specific colour, there are plenty of dogs in rescue.  The breed has enough probs as it is and the only way I personally can support breeding is when it is done to improve the breed as a whole. 

Striking, but to my old eyes not the ones of my youth.