I see my work as a groomer to help the owner do what they don't have the skills or facilities to do themselves.  So removing matts from under arms, hair from ear canals, descale and clean teeth, cut nails, empty anal glads if necessary, trim to show off the dogs' good points and disguise the not such good points, scissor, which takes skill that I wouldn't expect a pet owner to have, and bath and dry if they don't have suitable facilities at home.  This regular attention can uncover early signs of problems eg pyometra that most owners haven't experienced, and regular teeth cleaning can avoid the dog needing an GA to have their teeth cleaned.  I share my experience that can advise when the dog has a problem that needs a Veterinary Surgeon.  I don't see my role as providing the regular maintenance that every owner should accept as part of looking after their dog, just like feeding, exercise and human interaction.

The way I see it you wouldn't take your long haired daughter out without combing her hair or washing it, you wouldn't go out yourself without combing and cleaning your hair (or would you?) so why take an unbrushed, dirty dog out?

I agree Dill.  I hope that parents don't take their children to school without making sure that they are clean and have brushed their teeth and hair.  Why shouldn't their dog, for whom they've accepted responsibilty, have similar basic treatment?

And do people go to the hairdresser and ask for their heads to be shaved like some groomers shave dogs so that they don't have to bother with brushing their hair?

There is no excuse for owners to continually neglect their dogs or for groomers to clip dogs that shouldn't be clipped.  But then some of us Dill wouldn't do it because it offends us and others do it because their enjoy it.  I'm just pleased that I sit my side of the fence and all the groomers that I've trained have good reputations and successful businesses. :)  We're all different as in all aspects of our lives. :)

I have to disagree again - my grooming services include the bath and blow dry, which is very important when doing eg a bichon, or indeed in getting curly spayed spaniel coats to lie a bit flatter. It would be ridiculous to expect owners to bring me sparkling clean dogs that hadn't been dried correctly so I just had to bath them again. Personally I love getting dirty dogs in (not matted, just muddy!) because I know they have been having a good life running around in the fields, and because I am making an obvious difference when you see all the muddy water running off.

My own husband, when he takes my American cocker away for a few days, usually brings him back horribly tangled. They do long hill walks and George does insist in running through the worst patches of mud and bracken, and when he lies down for a quick rest he gets his tummy covered with bracken. My husband, who I have shown and even observed grooming my dog, can spend hours trying to brush him out afterwards, but he just doesn't seem to be able to cope with he's in a state. So it's totally plausible that the owners I show and discuss brushing with are trying their best, but just don't have the skills, and I don't feel I would be a good groomer if I turned them away.

but he just doesn't seem to be able to cope with he's in a state.

He doesn't have to - he's got YOU! ;) :)

> Before I got into showing dogs, before I even had my own pedigree dog I had rescues, A Tibetan Terrier and an Afghan Cross in full coat.  Both those dogs lead the kind of life any active dog would wish for, often came home filthy after a walk etc. but never were left tangled dirty or matted, they were always brushed out afterwards and bathed if needed, and always combed before a walk.   The way I see it you wouldn't take your long haired daughter out without combing her hair or washing it, you wouldn't go out yourself without combing and cleaning your hair (or would you?) so why take an unbrushed, dirty dog out?   Had I ever used the services of a dog groomer I'd have bathed and combed the dog before going.  I'd be mortified to take a scuzzy dog to the groomer :-(  the same as I would never go to the hairdressers with dirty hair ;-)
>
> As the only groomer within 80 miles then surely a little education would work wonders ;-)  some people only need encouragement

Perhaps you have more time on your hands and are able to groom your dogs properly, I have an owner who has Afghans and she has now retired and has medical problems so finds grooming difficult. So should she feel bad that her dogs get in a tangle and feel that she should not take them to a groomer because they are not perfectly groomed and tangle free ??
And yes I have been out without brushing my hair !!!!!!!!!!!!! I must be a real slob !!!! and what is the point in bathing your dog before taking it to a groomer if that is what it is going there to for. ????

As for educating people about grooming well does everyone who goes to school to be educated leave school with the same qualifications ? are there not some people who are smarter than others ? well you can try and educate but whether it sinks in is a different matter so as a groomer I am there to help these people whether it is just through lazieness or not its my job and I do it well !!! I would hate to think people thought of me as an over powering snobbish groomer who only wanted show class , well groomed dogs in my salon.

And I am not a shearer And I do groom correctly  I have a lot of Bichons who now have lovley full coats and only have a couple of owners who still have trouble with keeping it matt free so I must be getting through to some of my customers !! Would'nt it be a lovley thing to have a perfect world where everyone listened and did what they were told ??? No such luck though just as well I am here ehh !!!!!

> And do people go to the hairdresser and ask for their heads to be shaved like some groomers shave dogs so that they don't have to bother with brushing their hair? <IMG alt=eek src="/images/eek.gif">
>
> There is no excuse for owners to continually neglect their dogs or for groomers to clip dogs that shouldn't be clipped.&nbsp; But then some of us Dill wouldn't do it because it offends us and others do it because their enjoy it.&nbsp; I'm just pleased that I sit my side of the fence and all the groomers that I've trained have good reputations and successful businesses. :-)&nbsp; We're all different as in all aspects of our lives. :-)

Yes they do have their heads shaved have you not noticed the amount of boys /men who have shaved heads ? they also have patterns shaved in to their heads I expect you find that awfull too . And what is wrong with short hair ? its easier to maintain is it not ?

I also do all the things you do i.e. anal glands under arm matts and advise owners if I find any problems . Do you also think that people who use dog walkers are awfull peope as they do not walk their dogs by themselves ?

> I'm just pleased that I sit my side of the fence and all the groomers that I've trained have good reputations and successful businesses. :-)&nbsp; We're all different as in all aspects of our lives. :-)

Yes we are but I too have a very good reputation and successfull business and I get the impression that you think I shave every dog who comes in to my salon , well that is not the case.

> I see my work as a groomer to help the owner do what they don't have the skills or facilities to do themselves

Thats what I do too ,  but are you not contradicting yourself here as if they do not have the skill or facilities to do their dogs , do they not end up having at least a few matts  and if you are so good at explaining how to groom , surely all your customers must have the grooming skills you have taught them !!

> but he just doesn't seem to be able to cope with he's in a state.
>
> He doesn't have to - he's got YOU! ;-) :-)

Is that soo bad ???? at least lucydogs husband tried his best !!!!

> A Yorkie with a correct coat is very easy to keep long, as is a Shih Tzu.&nbsp; They need a slicker brush, a comb and 10 minutes twice a week with the correct technique to keep their dog in good condition.&nbsp; I would just take them to 1" off the ground and then hygiene areas short.&nbsp; &nbsp; Most owner love nothing more than to see their dog gallopping in the park or garden with their coat flowing!&nbsp;

Got to disagree there lol! I find it very difficult to keep my yorkies coat matt free and in perfect condition, when he is cocking his leg on walks, walking in all conditions, in the rain, dragging twigs all over the place, dirt in the garden, its impossible to keep it the way i used to anymore and i dont have the time nor the patience to keep it in good condition, its vertually impossible lol, when i had him cut for the first time the other week its been a send from the heavons, he is clean and its so easy to maintain, he isnt bald though, i dont like that look, but just enough hair and looks stunning :-D

my dogs are long haired, they cock their legs (which ends up all over their legs) go through mud, brambles etc - they are hosed off when they get home, brambles etc pulled off legs, belly/willy/leg hair shampooed a couple of times a week to stop it breaking off,  good brush through once a week .. doesnt take long at all, its part of their routine as much as walking, training and feeding.  I would have thought with a small dog it would be easier as you can just pop them in the sink - thats what we used to do with our Bichon after his walks, sometimes twice a day if the weather was bad.

> A Yorkie with a correct coat is very easy to keep long, as is a Shih Tzu.&nbsp; They need a slicker brush, a comb and 10 minutes twice a week with the correct technique to keep their dog in good condition.&nbsp; I would just take them to 1" off the ground and then hygiene areas short.&nbsp; &nbsp; Most owner love nothing more than to see their dog gallopping in the park or garden with their coat flowing!&nbsp;

A Yorkie is easy to keep in full coat????? Have you never seen how the show ones are kept, with coats in crackers at all times except in the ring?? I know the dogs are used to it and they don't mind, but you can't possibly say that the coat is easy to care for when they need to be put in crackers, and then taken out, brushed through and put back in crackers every single day!! And I have chatted to Yorkie and Maltese people at shows so I know that's what they do.

doesnt take long at all, its part of their routine as much as walking, training and feeding.
ClaireyS, I didn't have any owners who couldn't be bothered to feed their dogs and when I explained that grooming was just as important, I didn't have any that couldn't be bothered to groom either.

Have you never seen how the show ones are kept
Sure they cracker them so that the coat doesn't get damaged and is kept in show condition.  Pet dogs don't need that!  They just need to be groomed regularly and it doesn't matter if the ends break before their next trim.

A Yorkie has a silky coat and no undercoat to matt.  My owners take 30 seconds with a slicker after a walk in the woods just to remove the debris and 10 minutes twice a week to go through with a slicker, comb and conditioning spray and their dogs have a brilliant dog life.   They wouldn't win at shows because the coat isn't perfect but the dog looks like the Yorkie that they bought. :)

I agree that pet bred Yorkies with woolly coats aren't as easy, but then they don't look like Yorkies anyway. :(

I really can't understand the problem.  In 16 years I can count on one hand the number of owners that I've had who didn't want to groom their dogs or couldn't be taught the very basic skills necessary.  And the students who have gone through the school have found the same.  The only ones who have failed are those who panicked in their early days and were worried about turning clients away, and clipped the dogs off.  As I've always said, what we turn out is what we'll get more of because each dog that leaves our parlour is our advertising.

This is just going round in circles and so this will be my last post on this thread. 
I accept that we all have been taught differently and have different ideas about what makes a good groomer. :)