At this time I believe the Society have opted to put eye testing into the CoE, but the first six months of the health plan and revised standards are when breed clubs can and will be expected to add new information and possibly include other tests such as patella testing. The Flatcoat Society has had a health committee for many years. The KC has told all breed clubs that they must have an elected breed health spokesperson who will co-ordinate with both scientific and veterinary experts. The co-ordinators will be required to meet with the KC regularly so that any emerging problem can be dealt with as soon as it is suspected that it is developing in a breed. Where a breed has a number of clubs they will be expected to elect a breed representative to act on behalf of all clubs.

>And what on earth do you think governs the immune system?

How on earth do you think vaccination works?

Environment plays a role - sometimes a big role. But the genetic predisposition has to be there. It's always extremely interesting if one twin succumbs to what is presumed to be a genetically-mediated condiiton and the other does not. As they are genetically identical, the condition must be triggered by something else - such as exposure to a particular toxin which only one twin has encountered; reaction to a virus etc etc.

Dogs can't get HD if the genetic predisposition is not there - however bad the diet, however much they are over-exercised. But of course it is possible that they can have the genetic predisposition and never suffer from HD because it has not triggered by some outside influence.

Jemima

Surely malformation of hip joints can occur for a number of reasons and any of these could be labelled HD regardless of genetic predisposition?

Carolyn- have you had an answer?

Jeff.

Nope Jeff.................. not a mention of what qualifications she has on the subjects she mentions.

> Surely malformation of hip joints can occur for a number of reasons and any of these could be labelled HD regardless of genetic predisposition?

Well yes, that's true and I'm sure it happens. But when vets/researchers (and I imagine most breeders) talk about HD they are referring to the genetic/inherited form. HD has a pretty high heritability - hence the BVA/KC scheme. If you breed from dogs with good hips, you are much more likely to produce puppies with good hips. It's not foolproof, as am sure many here can testify. HD is a complex condition and is likely to involve many genes interacting with environmental influences. But, again, if the genetic predisposition is not there, dogs will not be born with poor hips - although as you say, there's always the possibility of one-off, not inherited, developmental problem.

>If you breed from dogs with good hips, you are much more likely to produce puppies with good hips.

Which again points to a missed opportunity in your programme. If you'd showed how hip-scoring is done, and that puppy buyers should view with caution a breeder who hasn't hipscored her bitch (the excuse "I'm only breeding pets, not showdogs" is a common one, and simply doesn't wash - 'purely pet' dogs are not an underclass where it doesn't matter if they're crippled), you'd have gone a lot further in separating the wheat from the chaff, and all dogs would have benefited.

I would agree with that except for the "one off" phrase. Simply put we don't know the percentage.
Jeff.

> Well yes, that's true and I'm sure it happens. But when vets/researchers (and I imagine most breeders) talk about HD they are referring to the genetic/inherited form

Well my vets, orthopedic specializts & all the breeders I know consider the actual hips when talking about HD, not just the genetical contribution. They are concerned with the welfare & health of the dog-not just why it has HD.

As for the environs(& you forgot nutrition)possibly having an influence on the formation of the hips-they actually have a lot of influence. For example:

My bitch Jessie is from a litter of three puppies from parents, G parents, GG parents , GGG parents that have all been hip cored under the breed mean. Her sister has a score of 6:5=11, Jessie who was with her breeder & kept very restricted in a crate & then kennel & fed TBH rubbish dog food upto the age of 14 months has a score of 29:27=56 & in the opinion of my very very experienced vet her upbringing played a big part in the formation of her hips. Her full brother(in the Netherlands)has been Penn Hipped before his 1st birthday & his hips scored far lower than the best BCs have scored-this means that he should have good hips when X rayed & submitted for assessment(you will be aware what Penn Hipp assessment of immature hips is of course as this will have been part of your research for the show)

Now explain how my bitches score is so high when her litter sister(who very closely resembles her, both in the physical & bahavioural means)her sister has a low hip score if the environs & nutrition only possibly affect the hip joints

If you breed from dogs with good hips, you are much more likely to produce puppies with good hips.   From my experience doesn't always go this way!!  I know of a dog with a great score but his pups, grandchildren aren't so far as good even though he's been used with low scoring bitches.  Another dog has higher hipscore and has thrown pups with really good scores, only one being over the breed average.

> But, again, if the genetic predisposition is not there, dogs will not be born with poor hips - although as you say, there's always the possibility of one-off, not inherited, developmental problem.

Well, it's either possible or it isn't.  Which are you plumping for?