> I have my BC which i have had for 8 weeks on the bed with me have done since day one. Makes you think though if i have done the right thing.  You can never really know with any animal though and its a risk i'm willing to take.

The only problem is BC get very big. Is your bed big enough to share ?? LOL

> I have never used a clicker but dont believe that it is neccesary in positive reinforcement training in animals.

That wasn't what I said. I was making the point that DB uses bullying methods rather than positive reinforcement, when positive RF works better anyway. :-) Of course it is possible to train a dog using positive methods without a clicker. Though I have to say if you don't use one it might be worth thinking about - I was truly astounded by the results it achieved and the speed with which it achieved them (that was used by an experienced dog trainer not me BTW :-D - though even used by me it has worked the best out of positive methods. ) It is in widespread use amongst positive trainers - which is why the absence of seeing one used - ever - on DB has stuck in my mind, though I have seen plenty of the rattle bottles, spray collars, water spraying et al. :-(

This wasnt just a bite to the face the dog bit her whole nose off which couldnt be found afterwards so they presume he also ate it she had a hole where her nose should have been, it would take a very strong person indeed to keep that dog and not have it put to sleep , imagine if it was sleeping on a childs bed and ripped the nose of your child while sleeping can you honestly say you would consider keeping the dog , I have to say I wouldnt be able to trust it .No-one can actually give a answer to this freak ....be it an accident or reaction to something that he was dreaming about ...it still happened.
You have to also remember the dog was a rescue from 18m with no history although she had owner it for 6yrs and had no concerns about him at all.

> I do hope this doesn't damage the Greyhounds image, they have a tough enough time as it is

the trainer did emphasise that in the main he would reccommend greyhounds as pets as they have great temps for a family. the interview was not slagging at all, i think the owman was simply trying to let people know to be careful. her injuries were horrific

> Call him what you like kiddo (and who cares if that sounds boastful ;-) )
>
>

absolutely, boast away, i do hope he's a lovely one :)

> I now have a boyfreind/partner/lover

Woohoo!! :-D I would say lover if I was you. :-D

> it makes me think of same sex couples as otherwise they would be boyfriend/girlfriend, although obviously i do reslise its different as you get older

see i feel funny saying bf now rather than partner and i'm 23! boyfriend just sounds sort of temporary and young to me, i don;t think it suits the person your living with. but then thats just me.

felt very weird the first time i said it though lol :)

Rach85...put your fingers in your ears.......

LOL @Toolz, fair dues dude lol :)

I agree with an increase in stafford numbers and its a real shame and something which needs to be stopped by not having 'hoodies' owning them for a quick start to fixing the problem!

If everyone else isnt expierancing a dog increase thats fine, its just in my area we always see a massive influx of dogs at a certain time and guess when that is...christmas :( :(

Also on the boyfriend/partner thing, I use partner when talking to some people and boyfriend others lol

> This wasnt just a bite to the face the dog bit her whole nose off which couldnt be found afterwards so they presume he also ate it she had a hole where her nose should have been, it would take a very strong person indeed to keep that dog and not have it put to sleep

her son was also deeply traumatised by seeing his mum without a face. i don;t think in those circs they felt it was appropriate to keep him and i doubt they'd have felt it was responsible to pass him on.

on an aside, i must say that the reconstructive surgeon is doing a very good job.

> I now have a boyfreind/partner/lover (come on ladies what do you call them when your over 40, boyfreind sounds juvenile, partner sounds like business, adn lover sounds like boasting!)

Barbara, this was worth wading through 2 pages of posts for! That will be your rate of posting decreased then ;-) I went for OH most of the time. I too felt that boyfriend sounded a little silly (plus we lived together so were more than dating) Lover just sounds like a holiday fling! LOL Partner works. :) (pssst, I hope you're really happy)

> Definately lover :-) nothing wrong with boasting... :-)  I've been single for so long, I think I'd be shouting it from the rooftops :-)

Well I was celibate for over 15 years, and in fact this was the person I was seeing back then.

We bumped into each other again after all this time, both still unattached, previously it was poor timing for both of us, both on the rebound, me with two small children to consider.

He is an animal lover, and is an expert poop scooper.

Well we are happy, just wish my kids were happy for me :( 

After accepting things at first they really went off the deep end as I wasn't taking things at a snails pace.  My daughter even said twice a week and the odd weekend would be acceptable!

I couldn't believe that they really thought they could dictate to me how to lead my life now that they are basically adults (17 1/2 and 21), after all they have had boyfriends and girls friends and in fact my daughters ex-boyfriend virtually lived here for four year, just having most of his meals at his Mums.

They have moved out and won't talk to me except to demand this or that forgotten item.

I spent all those years alone so their lives would be stable (cowardice on my part was part of it too) and now that they are leading their own lives and barely give me the time of day they still want Mum to just be there the same as always.

> Well we are happy, just wish my kids were happy for me :-( 
>

Stuff them! That's so sad Barbara and a BIG mistake on their part. I hope they wise up and start being happy their mother found a companion to share her (your) life with. They sound like they're being pretty selfish. My MIL lives with a man who has children that are just the same. So we adopted him :)

You must be very hurt. :( I hope they come to their senses soon. (point me in their direction and I'll get my whupping hand out!)

:( i'm really sorry to hear that barbara. they will come around though- they've had you all to themselves (well except for the dogs) for 15 years, and despite being adults themselves its easy to slip back into the child when it comes to your parents, so i imagine they are probably jealous and just trying (albeit in a misguided and misfiring way) to show that they care and worry about you.

i'd say either sit them down and have a free exchange or back off but keep the lines of communication open (light friendly texts etc)- depends on your kids though, you'll know best.

don't let it upset you.

i would say though (and really really not trying to rain on your parade- you parade away :)) but if they have doubts you might want to listen and bare them in mind- just as you would if a friend pointed out something. the first flush can be distracting and the occasional word of outside advice can be helpful :)

i am sure they will come round to the idea in time though :)

enjoy it!! (the fella, not the grumpy kids :))

> They have moved out and won't talk to me except to demand this or that forgotten item.
>

They will probably regret that bitterly when they grow up.

must say that crossed my mind to. i understand from brainless's previous posts that dad has been out of the home for a very long time so its not that they are bitter about 'a replacement' which in a child is at least some excuse. in an adult such behaviour is simply a bit petulant

Well, we'll have to disagree on bullying.  I don't call using a sharp sound, smell or spray of water to get the attention of a dog who is as likely to pay attention to the noise of a clicker or a "good boy" as they are the sound of a feather falling from a tree.  Not to mention that a "good dog", or quick game with a toy, or a treat, always follows when the dog behaves as desired.  These dogs are not being trained for the first time - they have effectively been trained by their owners NOT to listen to them or pay them any mind.  Totally different situation when you have a puppy or dog where there has never been an attempt to train it - or dogs that have been abused.  None of the dogs that have been shown on Borstal have been abused, they all have owners that care about them, pampered them, but are simply clueless and wonder why their dog is "untrainable".  

Go for it Barbara...I had to marry Ron in the end....my Mum kept calling him her SIN IN LAW LOL

I didn't watch the program but it does sound like a terrible misunderstanding on the dogs part..we will never know what entered his head, I don't have the dogs on the bed but then 24 stone of hot panting Bernese is not conductive to a good nights sleep !!!!!
Never used a clicker either, my dogs  watch and listen to me, not a tool. Having said that I know lots who swear by them so each to his own.
Aileen.

> Well we are happy, just wish my kids were happy for me

Glad you're happy - that's the important bit. :-) Your kids'll get used to it - after all they wouldn't be too happy at their ages if you were telling them who they could and couldn't see and for how long. But sorry it has marred what should otherwise be an utterly pleasurable life event for you. :-(

ETA - sounds a bit like they are taking you for granted - which in a way is a compliment, as it means they trust you not to turn your back on them - but they need to be adults and realise that it is YOUR life not theirs. Sure it will come right in the end. :-)

> I don't call using a sharp sound, smell or spray of water to get the attention of a dog who is as likely to pay attention to the noise of a clicker or a "good boy" as they are the sound of a feather falling from a tree.

The clicker is introduced in a familiar environment with few distractions to prime it, and behaviours are trained in that environment, before increasing the distractions etc. The sound of the clicker isn't supposed to "distract" the dog, it is a noise to mark a wanted behaviour and the dog has learnt that something good follows the click (when the clicker is initially primed). If a clicker is not introduced correctly or is misused then it won't work. If used correctly it gets excellent results - better than with aversive training - as well as building a bond and trust with the dog instead of destroying it. Whatever language aversives are couched in, that is what they are - aversives - and if the same or a better result can be achieved using positive methods - why use them on the creature that is supposed to be your best friend?

munrogirl76

> Though I have to say if you don't use one it might be worth thinking about

Very sweet of you but I've been training the handlers in my classes to use positive reinforcement techniques for many, many years now :-) And not a single click. Thanks anyway.

Oh Barbara!

Call him.... by his name (The enigmatic smile you just cant wipe off your face will tell everyone everything else ;) )
In 'forum land' I've always thought 'The OH' pretty much summed things up. ('im in doors?? :-D)

Delighted to hear such nice news, just relax enjoy some long over due 'you' time.

> and is an expert poop scooper

He's a keeper then!

> Well we are happy, just wish my kids were happy for me :-( 
>
>

Sorry to hear that :(, i  hope they come round in time.

Best wishes to you :)

This incident reminds me of the French woman who's Labrador ate her face off while she was paralytically drunk out cold, so maybe could of been the same thing?
My dog sleeps in my bed but I don't encourage him- I just find him there in the morning. He used to get on my bed and lie right pressed into my back all 5 stone of him ! causing real bad back ache for me... it used to wake me up and I'd shout at him to get off so he has learnt to sneak on and lie away from me now. :-)

> Well we are happy, just wish my kids were happy for me :-(

They will be fine given time.
Children are children forever, even in middle age, at least they will get wiser.
But they are selfish, they are born to be selfish when it comes to parents. The parents spend their lives making childrens life comfortable and as best they can, always wanting and striving for the best outcomes, so that is what we condition our children to expect from us, that our aim is the well being of them.
How dare we want something just for us that doesn't further their cause!!!!
I love my children dearly, how ever it isonly the 25 year old who is just getting 'grown up' yet.

The very best to you both and may it last for ever more.

Karen :)

Absolutely delighted to hear your news Barbara :) You have spent a long time bringing up your children and now it's your turn to do what you want to and enjoy yourself :) :)

I use a clicker with my terrier. He is very exciteable and even the quietest word of praise makes him break the exercise so it has been invaluable. I also use it with my GR although he was not clicker trained to start with. The great thing with clicker training, whether you use a clicker, signal or word, is that the dogs think for themselves, even the tiniest positive response can be rewarded and my dogs love it when I get the clicker out the cupboard. They will go through a whole routine of exercises and tricks all of their own accord as soon as I pick up the clicker :)

I would CERTAINLY call a rattle bottle and shouting bullying.

Me too. DB trainers were chosen because they were happy to go with the whole "mean dog trainer who sorts 'em out" attitude.
Other dog trainers who would use different techniques were interviewed but were deeemed "too BBC" or not looking right, etc. It's all just a package with DB as it is with everything else. Not to say that dog trainers who use other methods would not also gain success - just that they wanted the ones who are willing to make people do press ups, show owners up and moan about dog breeds (eg small breeds, beardies who are not "proper" BCs, etc...go figure...), go along with the pretence that one dog ate junk food when it did not, and one of the trainers seemingly claiming more awards than he had in some circles...etc etc....

It's "entertainment" after all....:(

  Hi bilbobaggins

I have a double bed all to myself would rather have my BC than a man ha ha

> spent all those years alone so their lives would be stable (cowardice on my part was part of it too) and now that they are leading their own lives and barely give me the time of day they still want Mum to just be there the same as always.

May be they are a little jealous some one else is sharing their Mum.

They will come round once they realise you are happy and as some one else said when they Grow Up a Little

Good Luck to you though. We all deserve to be some bodies number ONE

MSPOPPY I loved my BC so much still miss him 5 years on. As much as I love my boys now he was so special.

> We all deserve to be some bodies number ONE

Hit the nail on the proverbial head Bilbo and so well put :-)

Methinks we should start a new thread about Barbaras OH! :-D

Good for you!

> munrogirl76

> Though I have to say if you don't use one it might be worth thinking about

> Very sweet of you but I've been training the handlers in my classes to use positive reinforcement techniques for many, many years now  And not a single click. Thanks anyway.

I would hope that you avoid sarcasm with the handlers in your class at least. :-)

Of course there are other positive reinforcement techniques - and I am sure you have researched the clicker thoroughly before discarding it as a method, as obviously all good trainers are forward thinking and consider new ideas. I would be interested in what you felt were you reasons for avoiding the clicker? :-) Purely through curiosity - I am always keen to learn. :-)

> what you felt were you reasons for avoiding the clicker?

no just the click. We, as good dog owners, shape all the time and as I dont always have a bridging 'object' to hand, I feel that in my ongoing training bridging can be done by a small non-verbal signal.

I apologise if you felt I was sarcastic munrogirl76. On an open forum like this, no matter how well established one is in their own field, it never ceases to amaze that everyone assumes that one is a total beginner.
I've been told on this forum how to feed my dogs, breed them and train them and often by novices. I sometimes get the hump !!
Yes I am a sarcastic old bag especially at training classes..... my students have said that they felt like they've been on a spin cycle after my classes :-)
But the silly beggars keep coming back and their dogs keep on getting trained .........so I must be pleasing some people.

Closing this as it's gone off topic now & a discussion of training methods is better off on the Behaviour board