Great advice thanks will try this she is twisting her tail and he has sniffed and had a lick then he goes round to her face.This is when they ar both loose sowill try holding her as you said and lead him away.
My hubby is going to help and will support dogs as needed.

regards

Enid

yes ppl have been polite but thay still didnt help her with what she came here to ask that all

The very first reply was mine and I most certainly DID answer her question. I can't change the fact that maiden stud to maiden bitch is not a good idea.........

I agree with you on that one. A forum is for people to chat about things they want to know and learn about. I wonder how many people have been put off with answers to questions they have asked.
I wont be put off though as are lots of people with good advice even ones who were sort of negative first time round.
Come on folks there are lots of good responsible dog owners out there who just want to get more experience .

I don't mean to cause more upset, but I have to say that some of what you describe as negative reaction to your question has been justified. Your first reason for wanting to breed was

>  1/ I am one of those dreadfull people who believe that a dog should have a chance at having a litter

If every dog actually had the chance to have a litter we'd be knee deep in unwanted pups. I am not being unfriendly here I am just trying to point out why people were justifiably pointing out some facts to you.

That said, you have gone on to say many of the right things and I hope the mating goes well.

Why cant people breed from their "pets" ?
some people just want their dogs to have pups ?
They also can produce litters that have dogs that turn in to champs.
Both of the dogs mentioned are "fit for the purpose " otherwise I would not be letting it go ahead.
Some people want a certain breed for their character, size colour,training ability,showing prospecs etc etc
Thats good your litters are ear marked for experienced owners do you think I am not going too vet my buyers before I sell.And I have said allready I am not doing it to make a profit.
It is also good that you did not have to use maiden dogs or bitches I am and that is why I have asked for advice .

how do you know that this mating is going to "fall short of the aims of the majority of the breeders on this site"
Are you not trying to encourage responsible breeding ?
You are presuming again My dogs pedigree as I said before is very good she has very good blood lines with over 30 champions on her papers and as has the dog they are both up to breed standard and a good match so where is the problem.
Yes it is a pedigree dog breeding site and both the dogs are "pedigrees"
Thats why I joined it I did not think it was an exclusive site !

People can breed from their pets - it's whether they should that is the real question.

I'm not against breeders, I have two pedigree dogs in my house bought from carefully sought out breeders. (They were bought as pets, although I have shown one of them for the first time this year. The other will definitely never be shown.)

I'm not even questioning anything about your current attempted breeding.

I'm just very strongly against the idea that every dog should be able to have one litter. I can see why it appeals, as we all adore our dogs and want to see their genes continue. BUT if we all let them breed, even one litter each, the shelters would be inundated with unwanted puppies. 

I am interested in advice but as I can see you have shown a lot and as  i said before very experienced.
But again why do you presume that I have not looked in to things before I decided to go ahead with this.
I do not have the advantage of being able to travel and show my dog and get people asking to breed with my bitch that does not mean to say I am being irisponsible and therefor my mating is going to be a disaster. How can I prove this to you Do you want to see the pedigree lines of both dogs show you their hip scores ? I will not need to  cherrypick and muddle through as some people have given me good advice .
The advice I asked for was about maiden dogs not the ins and outs as I have asked about this  although advice on the ins and out is also appreciated ,I just wanted to Join the Forum probably for the same reasons as you did.I was never told I could not Join you must have had to start somewherebreeding with your dogs and have had encouraging advice given to you Thats what I have been trying to get.
Yes maybe I should have had an experienced quality dog but I have an inexperienced quality dog who hopefull through advice ,encouragement and help with the dogs I will be successfull.
The programe about the KC showed us that there are crufts winners out there that are breeding with their dogs who are passing on the most awfull illneses and genetic faults.I have carefully looked at both the dogs healthwise and there are no problems. I would not dream of breeding if there were any.

I did thank you for your advice.You said it was not a good idea and I apreciate that.
Some people although have went of on a different tangent all together now though.

Your advice is noted

Thanks again

Thanks Julie
I understand but some are being a bit ott now I did not mean to get peoples backs up but I will not be made out to be an irrisponsible dog owner who just wants to breed because I can.
I know there is more to it than that.

And you have not upset me

Yes I understand
But the people who have been posting on this site tonight all breed so why should't I .
That sound so childish but you understand what I mean.
We should be trying to concentrate on the puppy farms that are about .That would solve a lot of problems.

Nothing to add to details about the bitch I am guessing as you are a groomer and dog lover she will be taken care of and I do wish you luck with your litter, however, I hope the person with the stud dog is made aware of what is very likely to happen to her boy now.  Our boy has been used at stud occasionaly perhaps 2 or 3 times a year (that said my smaller boy will be used for the first time shortly), and in between that they live with our 6 entire females.  Of course our females come into season also, one breed cycling every 6 months ish the other every 9 to 10 months.  We have a good sized house with whelping room, utitily (good size and used for overnight sleeping of seperated dogs) and large study where mostly the dogs gather.  Three totaly  separate garden areas and an good sized dog run.  We also have an ingeneous gate method in our house to ensure that matings dont happen by accident but what I am coming to is - the stud dog owner - are they aware of the very real changes that almost certainly will come over this particular breed and are they prepared to use him again (is he going to be sought after for future matings) or will this be a one off for him.

Many breeds have a change in the scent marking not just frequency and placing but pungency to boy does it get smelly.  The also get territorial when they know a bitch is in heat, not only your own bitches but can smell a bitch from a long way off. This can lead to scuffles amongs dogs that have been the best of freinds, they do settle down once the season is over but how many inseason bitches will the stud dog catch scent of? quite a few.  I would never never leave my stud dogs with someone to carry out the mating either.  One of us is always on hand to keep an eye on things and there are always two strong and experienced handlers present even though our bigger breed is not known to be agressive. 

The boys owner is expected to take responsibility for the puppies just as much as the bitches owner I hope they know this also.  By giving your puppy buyers the KC registration certificate you are giving them access to the stud dog ower who they may wish to contact for advice at any time. 

These are things to be aware of and for Male dog owners to know about if approached to use a dog at stud.  And before I am shot and hung out to dry for having both stud and bitch, 2 of my 4 litters have been produced by stud dogs 200 miles from me so no this was never an easy option and also I have worked hard to get my boys noticed in the show world and health tested - further I make very sure I know the bitches owners who come to us very well indeed before I commit to a life time of taking care of any of the little bundles of fluff that my need rehoming for whatever reason.

The above information is my own and the experience of many freinds in the showing world, but is still only an oppinion and I am always ready to be corrected :-)

> The boys owner is expected to take responsibility for the puppies just as much as the bitches owner I hope they know this also.

I suspect that the stud dog owner was thinking no further than the money. Would you let your precious stud go off to an inexperienced person?

Are you a member of the Airedale Terrier Club of Scotland?  I'm sure they would have lots of advice for you and would be able to offer you sound advice on using a stud dog chosen to compliment your bitches lines rather than finding one through the dreadful 'Stud Your Dog'.  Unless you are knowledgable about the dogs that are in the pedigrees, I doubt this on loan stud dog is the best thing out there, probably the most available as some owners seem to have a bizarre decision to make their dogs 'a man' but not necessarily the best.   

ChristineW

I suspect with the bitch standing and the 'stud' in situ, it may be a fait a compli this time..... but excellent advice for others who may be reading this thread and perhaps the OP in future.

> We should be trying to concentrate on the puppy farms that are about .That would solve a lot of problems.

I am not a breeder but wanted to reply to this.Yes puppy farms are dreadful but the main reason there are so many dogs in rescue is people breeding their pets,you may be suprised at the statistics here..

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm

Also this is an excelent article on why people breed..

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeder.html

Hello

Have just quickly scanned through this thread, so forgive if someone has said this before.......

A dog will quite often be inhibited if they are on the home ground of the bitch.     Probably more so with a maiden dog.

Jo

hi there, back to the original question, i recently had the experience of being present for attempting to mate two maidens, its wasnt easy and the owner of the dog was hugely disappointed, and all for having him neutered because he wasnt up to the job, however, he was approached by an owner of an experienced girl to use, and bingo, no hassle at all whatso ever, he mated 3 times with no problems over a week,  it made a BIG difference having an experienced girl to help him!

I dont think i will ever be trying 2 maidens myself

Lilacbabe,

It would be churlish not to say good luck with your prospective litter.

Having said that, I must support those experienced voices on this forum who have advised you on the considerable risks of what you are doing. It would be irresponsible of them to say otherwise and would, in addition, be doing other pet breeders a disservice. The advice may not be what you want to hear and therefore may appear negative. It is not, the posters are being honest in telling you that they cannot, in all conscience, support a risky mating, whatever the reasons for doing so.

We must be honest and say that you have chosen to take a calculated risk in mating a virgin stud to a maiden bitch. You justify your position by an inability to travel far - in my view that is something of a red herring. The bottom line is that you had a choice.

Nonetheless, I do hope, for your sake and for the dogs, that all goes well.

If all goes well now and your bitch is mated make sure you get all the relevant paperwork from the dogs owner as well as a receipt for stud service.  Also ask for a copy of any medical tests hip score etc.  Even if you had no luck at all the owner of the dog may still require payment as who's to say that no mating took place (they are totaly reliant on your say so).

When you register your litter your breeder registration certificate will tell you what tests are lodged with them and there you have it.

I know you will find members very supportive when it comes to whelping and I would never be afraid to ask.  Good advice given regarding the breed club and if you dont get a mating this time, being in the breed club can put you in a better postion for advice.

No more to add just take good care of mum and babies if they arrive this time or the next :-)

Just a thought. if you abide 100% by the Kennel Club rules you will not be able to register the puppies. The owner of the dog has to sign the litter registration form or confirm if the litter is registered on line

>CONFIRMATION OF MATING TO BE SIGNED BY OWNER(S) OF SIRE I/we hereby certify that the Dam named as identified to me/us was mated to the Sire on the date indicated and that the Sire was recorded as owned by me/us on that date. I/we have read the instructions for completion of this form and agree to be bound by and submit to the Kennel Club Rules and Regulations as the same may be amended from time to time.

If you have the dog & bitch the owners of the dog cannot sign the form honestly as they only have your word for the ID of the bitch & that the dog was mated to her on a said date. If you were dishonest(which I am NOT saying you are)you could fail to get a mating & buy puppies in from elsewhere & pass them off as your own.

Very very very few pet breeders have produced dogs that have gone on to be highly successful & an improvement to the breed

> but when a question is asked for some advise why not just give it if you can ...like ask for some one that is close to were you live if thay can asist you

The thing is often people are wanting advice to do something totally inadvisable or not in the best interests of the dogs.

> Why cant people breed from their "pets" ?
>

It has to be accepted that there are far too many dogs for the available homes.

Therefore those that are bred should only be for the benefit of and maintenance of the breed and from those chosen to show or work there are more than sufficient for good pet homes.

Only about 1 in 10 are good enough to breed from, and most pet owners are not knowledgeable enough to know whixh ones these may be.

Simply breeding only to produce pets and not for any other reason that benefits the breed is in most ethical responsible breeders views wrong.

Especially as very few of this kind of breeding comes with lifelong backup for the resulting pups.

In 1 - 10 years time will you be happy to take pups back that may be old crotchety dogs who are likely not to get on with your dogs?  Often at a moments notice.

My last returnee came within half hours notice on an Evening when I had an in whelp bitch.

> But the people who have been posting on this site tonight all breed so why shouldn't I .
> That sound so childish but you understand what I mean.
> We should be trying to concentrate on the puppy farms that are about .That would solve a lot of problems

Puppy farms are dreadful because of the conditions the dogs endure, but actually it is the one off litters bred by people who want their dog or bitch to have pups that contribute to the rescue problems the most.

The statistics produced here are American and a bit out of date but there is no reason to suspect they are any different here, in fact the proportion of puppy farmers is probably greater in USA than here: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm

You will find those of us here that breed do so as part of our hobby of showing and/or working our dogs, and have become so engrossed in these pastimes that we wish to breed our own dogs to show and work.  Every litter bred is either to keep  pup or to produce pups that hopefully can be incorporated into ones breeding plans down the line.

yep Moonmaiden thats where I was going with this.

I would feel that there would be no support coming back from Stud dog owner and no knowledge either as well as lack of proof of paternity.  At a later date you could be looking at dna testing, this has happend to some one I know due to them not fully undertanding the reasons why you dont take your bitch to two separate stud dogs in the same season.  And no Im not saying this will happen in this isnstance but it is something to be aware of and an easy trap for the inexperienced to fall into not to mention paying two lots of stud fees and the dna testing on top.

OMG. The only flatcoat stud listed I have never heard of owner or affix and his nose looks funny to me. GSP stud wanted... for an unregistered bitch.... excuse me while I go and shoot myself.

> I take it you have !!!

No I haven't but I am not looking for advise on how to handle this mating and at the same time getting insulted when people mention the lack of experience.

Hi, sorry that some people have been so self opinionated and rude to you, when all you wanted was some help and advice.

Your girl seems to be doing all the right things, maybe the dog is just not mature enough yet (don't know his age) and maybe he feels
strange as he isn't used to your home.

It might be that if you have no success this time, if maybe he could come to your home in between times so he has got to know it.
Then when she is in season again he could come and he wouldn't feel strange.
Or maybe you could take her to his home and leave her there as it is difficult if you are having to travel back and forth. I always take my girls to the studs territory, leave them there and pick them up later. They have often stayed up to a week as it is difficult to predict the right time.
You still have time on your side, so hopefully you will get a couple of matings.

Sorry I cannot offer any more advice.

I wish you luck and a healthy litter.

Liz

If you don't have a mating this time bear in mind that it is advisable in most breeds that a first litter is born before a bitch is five years of age.  Like with other animals ans people leaving things too late for first tiem motherhood can lead to problems.

I see this as yet another litter bred out of ignorance and when advice is given as requested it is ignored because it is not what the poster wished to hear. To leave a maiden dog and bitch to mate without experienced handlers is in my opinion at best uncaring and at worst cruel. 

Liz - perhaps it is down to some people on here caring more for the welfare of the dogs than for hurting feelings of a few others who want to ignore good advice. Am I alone in thinking that over the last few months the forum is changing somewhat?

It appears Liz_R is happy to drop off her own bitches for mating - presumably these are her 'hybrid' litters ....  in other words "cross breeds" to anyone else!

> Am I alone in thinking that over the last few months the forum is changing somewhat?

No Fillis, very definitely not on your own!  Sadly more often than not it's becoming a case of the blind leading the blind :(

We certainly seem to be getting more and more of the "ooh puppies, how lovely" brigade than we've ever had.

my god why dont you 2 get off your high clouds and stop being so nasty about ppl here what are you the elite !!

> what are you the elite !!

The responsible :)

ok ;)

When have we been nasty?

> my god why dont you 2 get off your high clouds and stop being so nasty about ppl here what are you the elite !!

There's nothing elitist or nasty about seeing the bigger picture.I don't breed and never will but can see the results of people breeding their pets on every rescue site,breed specific and general,there are way too many.I myself own a crossbreed who's had 3 homes before mine because someone thought it would be clever to breed a Jack Russel with a Basset Hound creating a dog that's got high energy and is very stubborn,he's an absolute delight and we love him to bits but for most people way too much hard work.Anyone that has read the statistics on the link Brainless and I both provided and still thinks breeding their pets is a great idea is highly irresponsible in my opinion,even more so to breed cross breeds.

> what are you the elite

This site has very definitely changed over recent months. Any suggestion that a litter should not be bred for ethical reasons is howled down. :(  Mongrel litters are being written about proudly. :( What happened to the idea that this was a forum where those that genuinely care about the welfare of their dogs can get responsible and informed advice?

Sadly, too many people just don't want to accept that breeding is a serious business, and should not be undertaken without much thought.

BTW, what happened to the litter of 12 or 13 cross-bred Staffords that the owner refused to consider culling? Are they all in permanent homes? And, presuming they were sold rather than given away, what happened to the money that came from their sale? Maybe donated to SBT Rescue?;)

shoot me down lol , beleive it or not i know what you are all saying here ,i dont agree with mixed breeding !!! i do agree with doing good for the breed !!! ,im just one of them ppl that wants to help not to shoot them !! , and befor you say you have helped i understand what youve all said about breeding ,but we all have to start somewhere !!!
and thats all im saying on the matter lol lol :)

> i understand what you've all said about breeding ,but we all have to start somewhere !

The place a potential breeder should start is to study their breed, join their breed club and attend shows or working events for their breed so as to get to know about their breed in details and what makes a good example.

In this way you will get to know people very long established in the breed who will most certainly know all the dogs in the backgrounds of the current dogs and have seen the various trends, faults and virtues come and go.  These are the people one wants for mentors and then perhaps once one has done all this you will feel ready for the responsibilities of breeding.

This is time consuming and not inexpensive, but no one has to breed, so if you are unable to travel etc, don't breed.

Also there are 32 dogs in the fifth genration of a pedigree, 16 in the fourth, 8 in the third, 4 in the se4cond and obviously two parents, so 30 champions does not an exceptional pedigree make.

I have a bitch here who has nearly all champions in her five genration pedigree, yet she really is not a show dog as she has a cosmetic fault.  With care I will breed from her because she carries new bloodlines and we are a numerically small breed, but if she produces her fault to any marked degree then I will not advance that line of breeding further.

Well said.  We all have to start somewhere but let it be at a level of knowledge and responsibility that safeguards the individual animals, their offspring and the breed in general.

Excellent post Barbara and I hope that those who were seeking advice will follow it :-)

The point is that the help people on here have been giving is to try and point out that this litter should not be born. Why would I and others of like mind help someone to do something when we dont agree that it should be done? A mating is not best achieved under the circumstances outlined in the original post and a litter should not be bred by using the excuse that every bitch should have puppies. The OP more or less, by the way she worded one of her posts, acknowledged that way of thinking has no substance whatsoever. Nor has the fact that she is a dog groomer who lives on a farm any bearing on whether she should breed a litter. (By the way, how do the 200 customers get to this place that is so out of the way that the stud has to stay there?)   

> i understand what youve all said about breeding ,but we all have to start somewhere !!!
>

No we don't. I do know what you mean :) but no, most of us shouldn't ever start. There are so many dogs that need homes now why do people feel compelled to breed just to have a litter. Dogs are sentient beings that have emotional and physical needs that need to be met over a period of many years. Being responsible for bringing new dogs into the world shouldn't be done on a whim. If someone is dedicated to make a good start it should be done with education and the aide of experienced people to help. Do you know how many behaviour problems can be caused by a litter not being reared properly. It's not just a matter of managing to have a healthy litter and hope they all sell. There's so much more to it.

This site has very definitely changed over recent months. Any suggestion that a litter should not be bred for ethical reasons is howled down.

I must say I've noticed that as well. And not only about breeding, but training as well. A lot more advice about harsher training methods given out these days. :(

Whitelily you said the very same thing on Rach85's thread too, i.e. we all have to start somewhere - and I agree with Lori, amongst other people who have responded to this thread, NO WE DONT
Christ almighty, I'm just stunned at the ignorance of some people....
Isn't the interest of the dogs here first and foremost concern?  Seems that some people could well do to remember that....

edited to also add, as on previous threads there has been some extremely constructive and helpful information...
let's hope more heed it as has been evident previously

I'm sure you know I get as upset as you over these things but please don't blaspheme :-)

>It appears Liz_R is happy to drop off her own bitches for mating - presumably these are her 'hybrid' litters ....  in other words "cross breeds" to anyone else!

Yes these are my hybrid, crossbreed, mutt litters, whatever you want to call them.

>Am I alone in thinking that over the last few months the forum is changing somewhat? >

I didn't realise it was a "closed shop" and that there were any criteria you had to fulfill (like agreeing with everybody else) before posting.

>We certainly seem to be getting more and more of the "ooh puppies, how lovely" brigade than we've ever had.

Well anyone would have to have a heart of stone to not think puppies were lovely, so guilty as charged your honour.
You'll have to hang draw and quarter me.

> You'll have to hang draw and quarter me

Probably against the TOS ..... c'est la vie ;)