Are you asking me Astarte?  If so, I only ever holiday in the U.K.  :)  Just to add, it is a personal choice and not linked to shortage of money!!  :)

oh,! no sorry, did i do it to you? dozy me, sorry i ment moonmaiden :)

just interested as amnesty have i think three countries they approve of and as i said earlier britain ain't on it so rather a limited holiday list

i'm sure you have lovely holidays here, and i bet they cost more than a fortnight in spain :)

off to germany myself soon though, woo hoo!

:) :)

> i am not in any way defending the horrendous practises and human rights abuses seen in china, its appalling, but i think we should consider the benifits that this games might have for the future of the chinese people and for the rest of us. additionally, Amenesty International and various other human rights organisations have declared i think 3 countries to be free of human rights abuses on a large scale- do we critise every other country for this? and we are definately not one fo the 3
> I do critise all countries who have human rights violations & animal cruelty IMHO the two go hand in hand & these Games will not change anything in China, just as the 1936 Games changed nothing in Germany in fact as now they gave a seal of approval to an evil regime

i've just learned something new pertaining to the international comments made about the human rights record- the US, who are desperately trying to be friends with china at the mo, made rather a controvertial choice of flag bearer. china is essentially supporting the regime in Sudan at the moment, who as you'll know are not the nicest bunch, BUT the american flag bearer was a sudanese assylum seeker lol! this implicitly says that the americans do not approve of chinas involvement in sudan and that they definately don't approve of the sudanese government, quite the statement :)

We recorded the event, got home the next day ordered a chinese and watched got to just after the speaches and DIDNT SEE THE FLAME LIT, Ugghhh it ran out about 15 mins from the end.
Hope its on a rerun somewhere.

That was the Japenese during the war the japaese also slaughtered millions of Chinese.

It will take some going for any country to out do the British when it comes to human atrocities.
There isn't a continent where they haven't decimated the local population for their own gain. In the time scale of human existance no-one has come close.
We live in a prosperous society because of this and enjoy it's benefits, it seems rather hypocritical to vilify others.

I love watching the Olympics, I will wathch the Olympics, if I did not enjoy sport I wouldnt watch. However, I watched it is USA and there not doing a lot for human rights in Guantanemo Bay.
I think we should keep sport and politics seperate as Lord Coe said he did not boycott Russia because as the politicians were watching the Bolshoi Ballet whilst complaning about Russia.
I do think that EVERYONE is entitled to their views, but dont expect me to share those views.
It was a fantastic opeing ceremony(apart from I missed the end), and I watched it twice, and I'll watch all the events and enjoy them. Did any of you see the shooting where Russia got silver & Georgia bronze? they made a show of embrasing and kissing to show that sports is above politics. Thats how it should be, It will not alter my view of Chinese human rights or animal rights, but Im not viewing to see what the Chinses are doing, Im viewing to see what team GB is doing. Put your soap boxs aside, this post is about a ceremony not whose right and whose wrong in what they watch on the tv for heavens sake.
I also agree that if you were to holiday on a human rights basis you'd be stuck in Antartica where there aren't any people.

Guantanemo Bay!! an american human rights success?

Agreed we invented the first concentration camps during the Boer War, where we killed children and women!!

I don't think what previous generations did should stop us striving for a better world in the here and now nor do I think what America does should stop us criticising China on their human rights issues, I don't care for either's record but China's is pretty outstanding.
In contrast to what someone else said about watching the opening ceromony and not the games itself I feel much more inclined to do the opposite and would not watch China's showcase but would watch the efforts of the worlds athletes......if only I liked sport :-)

The sensible thing is to accept that the past happened and to learn from the mistakes (or what we currently perceive to be mistakes) our ancestors made. When those same activities are repeated in modern times, we have every right to protest.

> I don't think what previous generations did should stop us striving for a better world in the here and now

So not using Nigerian oil then? Trillionaire Brits using local peasant people on a dollar a week whilst we polute their country - or no holidays in Dubai because the vast majority of hotels are built by and serviced by modern day Indian slaves.
Unless you know the whole picture is it fair to 'cherry-pick' the medias favorite cause to make a stand about?

I've just admired a beautiful patchwork quilt on a shopping channel... they raved about the phenomenal, labour intensive hand stiched work.
All for £ 49 for a kingsize...wonder whos little baby hands make that? We live in such a complex world now it's very difficult to see the woods for the trees.

Tooolz, I use as little oil as I can from anywhere :-) and have never been to Dubai.  I do try to understand what goes on in the world.  I have been lucky enough to have travelled to most corners and have always tried to keep abreast of what is what around the world but if I have failed to aquaintance myself of some human abuse somewhere I don't see why that should be make me shrug my shoulders about something that I am aware of.

> have always tried to keep abreast of what is what around the world

Suppied almost entirely by a small handful of multi millionaire media moguls with their own agendas.

We are all entitled to our opinions, I am just challenging the opinions we choose to prioritize above others and how those opinions are formed.

I appreciate the media has inevitable bias, although I believe you can minimise that by reading a cross section of broadsheets across the political spectrum, but as I said I have travelled a fair bit too.  However, you are quite right we choose to prioritise on the basis of what we know and understand but I would say again does that mean we should shrug our shoulders and do nothing about the iniquities that we know of for fear there may be a greater one somewhere else that we have not been aware of?

Perhaps we can agree to keep a rather more broad and enquiring mind than many?

Most certainly - but in all conscience we must protest when we believe things are wrong. Yes, there may be many other worse things going on as well, and probably are, but that doesn't make all the other crimes against humanity any better.

For instance, puppy farming is a very unimportant problem compared to paedophile rings or child slavery - but I'm still going to protest about puppy farming too.

> Perhaps we can agree to keep a rather more broad and enquiring mind than many?

Happily :-)

JG  I heartily agree with your right to protest - but I was primarily responding to some in this thread who were condemming a countries olympics whilst typing on a computer, primarily made from cheap and plentiful Chinese components. A hollow gesture I felt.

on a lightner note what was the shopping channell???? we are all entitled to our opinions and we will never agree on certain subjects, but eh thats what makes us all individuals and how topics of conversation can be disscused without critisium, as long as we can put our own individual points across without any judgement being displayed well thats all we want. i dont agree with many things that happen in china, but i shall be watching the olypics because i love all sports and wish our teams lots of luck,

While we are at it we should avoid Russian goods, our own unless you agree with the Iraq war, and so on. Seriously you cant say China should not have the games when interaction with other nations may improve human rights and help with kinder laws. Their relationships with other nations is improving and using The Olympics as a weapon (which is what avoidance and boycotts are) against their people would be a retrograde act. Yes we should all strive to improve relations but that is done by talk and interaction not isolation. If you were brought up to eat dogs, eat dogs you would. We have evolved not all countries are as advanced as we are, go to the RSPCA places and not all of "our" people are that advanced. Sport is a leveller all nations competing on an even basis that has to be good, for mankind.

> China is also causing more pollution than most other countries(on a par with the USA)

Yes, but China creates far less pollution per person than most other countries - including the UK. China is building 2 power stations a week at the moment to keep up with the demand for a consumerist lifestyle like we currently have.

The actually eating of dogs I have no issue with, like you say it is cultural although, obviously, their treatment of animals is well below what we would tolerate but it is the treatment of humans which concern people the most I think.
I don't know if their relationship with other nations is improving they have shown contempt for other nations opinion even in the recent days.  They do want a relationship but it seems to be based on commerce and prestige on their part. 

>or no holidays in Dubai because the vast majority of hotels are built by and serviced by modern day Indian slaves.

I think we have to accept different cultures see things differently.  I have been to Dubai on holiday on several occasions and have spoken to a lot of the staff in the hotels. They are mainly from India or the Philippines, each one them told us they come to Dubai to earn a lot more money then they would in their own countries.  They stay for a few years and send the money home, or a some of them were saving up so they could go to university in their own country.  Although Dubai might be getting rich through them, I don't see that they are being abused or exploited, as it will give them a chance in life that they would never have otherwise had.

I have to say the service they provide is impeccable, it puts our tourist and service industry to shame, so they must be doing something right.

The main nationality on P&O ships is Phillipino, Indian and Srilanken we all use cheap labour, by that i mean all nationalities, use cheap labour. Take a look at any British building site and the middle european nationalitis work for much cheaper than GB nationals and for longer hours. Its not fair to point a finger at one people and say there the baddies.
I agree with views on Tibet, I will not and have not holidayed in China, but I am and will watch the Olympics, its SPORT and I like sport its not a POLITICAL issue to me. Holidays there would not be morally right for me. But Im off to the Maldives soon and Ive been on P&O cruises and I agree the service is fantastic, but they use cheap labour!

I have been on P&O ships too, where else would these people get to see the world work in a lovely environment and get paid, even if it is not much money.  Most come back year after year, so it can't be all bad and they certainly seem to enjoy it.

Their culture and opportunities are different to what we have been brought up with, which is something we have to accept and understand.

I'm all for accepting different cultures, absolutely.
But maybe not in Dubai, but certainly in Jordan people of that ethnic origin are being abused, paid very poorly and work in very poor conditions.
I've had that straight from the horses mouth too.

Agreed but its still crap money about £300 a month!! they get their real money from tips but its still not acceptable to not being paid a working wage. Yes they endure it for the money its a 9 month no day off term, we know we asked the question last trip in June when we got friendly with the waiter. But yes he has made enough to buy a home, but P&O still get away with unrealistic wages! P&O gamble on the fact that we will pay in tips what they do not pay in wages!! Isnt this exploitation? part of what we are objecting to in the chinese or Dubai or wherever and thats from Southampton!!

It probably is exploitation by P&O. But unlike other cruise companies they don't add a percentage onto your bill for tips, it is up to us whether or not we tip.

Like it or not, our cruises would cost a lot more if they had to pay larger wages, the staff get board and lodgings, any job with a lodging thrown in is badly paid.  They do get time off, not a usually a full day, but they get to go ashore.  The money paid might not be a lot to us, but to them it is a fortune when taken back to their own country.

Unfortunately, a British crew would put the price of a cruise out of reach for most of the passangers they now have.  I think we would notice the level of service decline too. As long as the crew are being well looked after and they are happy with the arrangements, then personally I don't think there is a problem with employing them at a lower wage.

> I have to say the service they provide is impeccable, it puts our tourist and service industry to shame, so they must be doing something right.

Their masters keep their passports until they see fit to let them go. You'd be on your best behaviour too I expect.
We westerners do love these cheap ( comparitively) holidays serviced by almost slave labour.

> Like it or not, our cruises would cost a lot more if they had to pay larger wages,

Yes, the whole business would become unviable and then the staff would have no wages at all.  All around the world if a man can earn a wage he may not have a fraction of the comforts we have but he and his family are far less likely to be starving as they often are when depending on subsistance farming. 
Personally, low pay is not the issue to me it is the lack of political power and freedom, so if passports are being withheld I think that is certainly a concern.

> Their masters keep their passports until they see fit to let them go. You'd be on your best behaviour too I expect.

It is not just their best behaviour, they take pride in their jobs and enjoying serving you. Whether or not their passports are held I don't know.  But as a hotel will hold our passports until departure I really can't see the difference.

> We westerners do love these cheap ( comparitively) holidays serviced by almost slave labour.

A 5 star hotel in Dubai certainly is not cheap, comparitively or not, neither do I see them serviced by slave labour. Both are ridiculous comments from someone who I assume has never experienced them.

According to our waiter he does not get a full day off, he got time off between shifts, but not a full day off. Its an example of unacceptable working conditions that is here, not in China, Russia here.
We should not stereotype peoples like I fear some of our other correspondants are. Not all Chinese are oppressed, there is a huge, huge country that is communist, it does appear to work for them, there is some political unrest and definately human rights issues but there are human rights issues all over the world. Do writers feel our treatment of the Gurkhas is exemplery! Certain areas of USA dont like their coloured bretheren and dont get me started on Indians here! Olympic sports should be outside of the political sphere.

My son spent a year living in China. He has very fond memories of the people he met. He was amazed by the mutual respect shown.He especially liked the way older people  were respected for their wisdom.

> Both are ridiculous comments from someone who I assume has never experienced them.

Another wrong assumption - but if this one also suits you then feel free.

This sort of thing worries and confuses me - they appear to want us to see only a perfect Country................

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7556058.stm

Toolz, considering your views on these countries and the 'slave labour' they employ I am just surprised you holiday there too.

Well WOW, I think the coverage so far has been excellent...except for the idiot who is commentating on the gymnastics ..he talks as though he is addressing a bunch of 12 year olds ...Sophie informs me that he is an ex Blue Peter presenter ..NO! Really?? (Sarky)

And Sue um Barker um, can um, be  um REALLY um annoying um if um you um listen to her um for too um long :) :)

Well done people who have won medals! YAY

(Sorry to intude on the political discussions and taking this back on topic :) :) )

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Your a better woman than me Melly, Im going to make no appology!
Not denying the thread has been hyjacked to an interesting debate but would wish that those who would like to concentrate on *that* debate would take it elsewhere and start a relevant thread!!

What I *will* appologise for however..is if what Im about to post,has already been posted (difficult to keep track as I skim the spawned debate to get back on topic)

I too was very impressed...But...only just caught the end of a News story..is it true most of was infact not real but computer generated???
The footprint fire works for example!

Oops!
dont know what happened there with my quote!!??
(Ive obviously angered the computer Gremlins..for moaning about Computer generated effects )

> considering your views on these countries and the 'slave labour' they employ I am just surprised you holiday there too.

Who said anything about a holiday?

They did the firework footprints but couldnt actually follow them with a helicopter so they redid them with CGI ...but they were originally real :) :)

Even my 13 year old son is glued to the olympics!!!!
Was listening to the radio the other day, and something one of the presenters said tickled me and is soooooo true!!!
Why is it we are glued to the olympics, watching sports that normally we would NEVER watch LOL
It is sooo true.
I watched the Badminton earlier for about an hour, and it wasnt even for a medal!!! LOL But was a british team!!!
I would normally turn it over!!!
Unfortunatly it looks like athletics is on nextr week :( :( And I am camping from Friday - thursday, Think I will be buying papers every day LOL
Lea :)

> He has very fond memories of the people he met. He was amazed by the mutual respect shown.He especially liked the way older people  were respected for their wisdom.

Please don't confuse our dislike of the regime for any dislike for the majority of chinese people.  I have never been to china but have met chinese people all over the world, stayed in chinese run hotels, even slept with three generations of a chinese family in the staff quarters when rooms were short :-) and have never yet met someone I did not personally like amongst them.

> except for the idiot who is commentating on the gymnastics ..he talks as though he is addressing a bunch of 12 year olds ...Sophie informs me that he is an ex Blue Peter presenter ..NO! Really?? (Sarky)
>
> And Sue um Barker um, can um, be  um REALLY um annoying um if um you um listen to her um for too um long :-) :-)
>
>

Sounds like they could do with Ben out there :-)

>Sounds like they could do with Ben out there :-)

I agree....then people could see what a really incompetent presenter is like :-P

:-P Funny, very funny :-P

What about Tom Daley?14 years old and representing your country! Did you see his parents in interview? Talk about proud.

I love the swimming events I have got up early all week to watch. My husband has a week off to watch the track events.

Isabel I did not confuse our dislike of the regime for any dislike for the majority of chinese people. for one minute. Some one else said the original post had been "hi jacked" but it really is interesting to see where a topic leads.IMO