Totally agree Im 53 now and with son's of 23 & 21 I'm hanging around for my grandchildren!! The only problem I do have is weight but Im still walking 5 miles a day with my dogs, and discovering how beautiful the landscape is when you are waiting around for your dog to do his business and not in such a rush, you can't hurry a sniffing spaniel you know!!

LOL :)

I will be asking my GP about the jab.  I would rather have more protection than none.  My family is very high risk for hormonal cancers, mainly breast cancer though.  I saw what my family went through, undergoing treatment, and it wasnt pretty.  If there is anything I can do to prevent it, I will.

I know breast cancer, and cervical cancer are completely different, but I would imagine they are both hormonal cancers. 

Here, we do smears once a year.  Sometimes I wish it was every 3 or 5 years!  But in the long run, for being uncomfy for a couple minutes for a smear in comparison to cervical cancer, I will get the smear. 

> Here, we do smears once a year

thats great! wish we did (kinda lol), its a hassle but probably worth it.

can;t believe we're starting at 25 now though, thats nuts! if people on average start having intercourse at 16 thats a hell of a long time to wait to start check. i understand that the moved it up to 21 as they kept getting false positives as the cells are changing anyway still before then but arrgh

i also think the younger you start the less scary smears will be.

Cervical cancer is caused by a virus, it's not hormonal :) or hereditary, though there are different types of cancer.

Just thought that I would mention Astarte that not all breast cancers are hormonal and likewise not all cervical cancers are linked to the HPV virus.  :) :) Best to contact your GP though.  Sorry Dexter, just noticed you had said a similar thing!  :)

I still look at it as, the more things I can do to prevent something, then I will do it.  One jab (whether its once in a lifetime, or once a year, or even one a month) is a small price to pay, for some protection from cancer. 

Here, there is also no set age limit for smears.  They believe that once you start having sex (protected or not) then you get smears done.  So if you are young (15 even - not using myself as an example, just repeating what the dr said when he was explaining it) then you still get it if you have had sex even once.   Which I think is a good idea, because diseases and cancers and such have no age guidlines either. 

ugh....why do i read the threads like this - im having waaay bad period problems right now, and as always all the symptoms sound like mine!!!!

My sons GF has been having smears regulaly she is 23 now and has had two or three since we have known her. Started them when she got to Uni. Its something they recommended at Uni.

was that actually ment for crespin? she was talking about hormonal cancers

> Its something they recommended at Uni.

not ours, only time it was mentioned was when i was doing a class on The social history of medicine :(

why is it we are so shy in this country educationally about anything below the waist?

No probs my periods were also horrible and Mums, she had polpys (I think thats how they are spelt) mine was cervical cancer but lots of people get bad periods after children.
Talk to the Dr if you get worried ours does a well women & well man clinic with the nurse, i do one a year plus breast scans well worth the peace of mind. I once sent my OH with instructions to tell them "Im too grumpy" and he was told to "get a life" a BC later and he has!!

> So if you are young (15 even - not using myself as an example, just repeating what the dr said when he was explaining it) then you still get it if you have had sex even once.   Which I think is a good idea, because diseases and cancers and such have no age guidlines either. 

when i first asked the doc they said 21 (i was 16 at this point) as your cells are still changing there anyway and they got so many false positives that scared the life out of young girls. prior to that it was the same as your describing (thats why i asked). 25 seems very late though since its the biggest cancer killer of under 35's...

you have my sympathy. gotta say i love my rod though, not had one since jan! yay!!

ive had a smear, and all sorts of internals, next is a scan....im still waiting on my appointment to come thru, im 30, have always had heavy periods and been on the pill, after having my son i had 2 years off the pill, my last scan showed some small fibroids, and its poisble they have grown...have to wait and see!

"was that actually ment for crespin? she was talking about hormonal cancers "

Yes, sorry, wrong name! :) :)

lol, no bother :)

why is it we are so shy in this country educationally about anything below the waist?

Its not just your country, here too!  Must admit, that it is a very hard subject to talk about.  Its easy to talk about sniffles and such, because its not so personal, but when you talk about sex and reproduction and all, then thats when you start to feel like you are having another "talk" like you have had from your parents, teachers, etc. 

I think to, at least here, that you are brought up as women that sex is something wrong.  You have it, you get called all those "nice" names.  But then you get the flip side, where media is all about sex.  So young women grow up very confused about the whole subject. 

Having been operated on myself my daughter will be having the vaccine if she can.

> You have it, you get called all those "nice" names.  But then you get the flip side, where media is all about sex.  So young women grow up very confused about the whole subject. 

oh yes, our whole culture has a madonna/whore complex- women are dull if their not sexual but wrong if they are... we've had that sort of thinking since ancient greece (just did my dissertation on it lol) and probably before.

personally i am very comfortable talking about sex, a bunch of the girls at work tonight have been comparing contraceptives :). i think its because i was brought up in a family very open about it but many people are still very nervous about it. many mothers were taught by their parents that its sick and wrong and the stigma is inadvertantly passed to daughters who when faced with the rampant media get very confused.  thankfully we are starting to get relaxed about it now.

>thankfully we are starting to get relaxed about it now.

Would that be why we have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe?

Do schools still teach that the best contraceptive is celibacy?

beat you there, the city i live in has the highest rate in europe.

and no they don't, why should they? surely thats a parental responsibility?

sex is natural and we have plenty of methods to prevent pregnancy now if they are used correctly.

>beat you there, the city i live in has the highest rate in europe.

Then something has gone very, very wrong there.
Sex education (compulsory in schools, so not just a parental matter) isn't complete without teaching about celibacy as well.

>sex is natural

Yes - so what?

>and we have plenty of methods to prevent pregnancy now if they are used correctly.

None are as reliable as celibacy, which also has zero risk of catching or passing on STDs.

> beat you there, the city i live in has the highest rate in europe.
>

It's shocking, Dundee should hang it's head in shame.    I know of someone who's 19 and she & 5 other former classmates are the only ones who don't have kids.   Its because they don't want to work and it's easy to have a kid & pick up the related benefits this Govt seem to want to hand out to those who reproduce willy nilly.

I have no kids myself, but must be such a worry for parents these days, i worry for my 4 year old niece for when shes older.

Im wondering how much we really do have in common Astarte!  In Canada, I live in the town with the highest teen pregnancy rate.  We have schools with daycares, even the one catholic school has a day care (which I found rather shocking!)  All my friends have kids, well minus a couple.  There are 3 of us who didnt have kids in High School!!!!!

Lovely ol Brantford!!!!!!

> Yes - so what?

so schools teaching that celibacy is the appropriate way to behave teaches teenagers that their perfectly natural feelings and urges are somehow wrong. yes teach kids to wait till they feel sure and ready, and definately teach them about contraceptives- preferably a hell of a lot more thouroughly than they do now- but telling kids that celibacy is the right this is teaching them that what their bodies are telling them is wrong and that they can't trust their own feelings

> Then something has gone very, very wrong there

lol, i wasn't suggesting it was a good thing!

i was given the exact same level of sex ed at school as everyone else in the country is required to get. it was rubbish btw. anyway, many girls dropped out of school to have babies and move into council houses- having had the same level of school education as my frineds and i. the difference i think was that i and my friends also had far more full sex ed at home, which in my case btw did not include celibacy.

i think that parents need to take far more responsibility for their kids education and not just expect schools to do it because they can't do it in full, and that stretches from reading and writing to general respect and sex ed

> It's shocking, Dundee should hang it's head in shame.    I know of someone who's 19 and she & 5 other former classmates are the only ones who don't have kids.   Its because they don't want to work and it's easy to have a kid & pick up the related benefits this Govt seem to want to hand out to those who reproduce willy nilly

i quite agree. i loath the idea of living off of the state and even when you have kids you don;t need to, my sis had kai young and raised him so far while doing her degree. i think its all about teens having been taught a work ethic and drive to do well. i know a girl who did get pregnant at school, she had the baby and was in class again the next week because she wanted something better than that for her and her wee girl.

lol seems to be a lot doesn't it? :)

> but telling kids that celibacy is the right this is teaching them that what their bodies are telling them is wrong and that they can't trust their own feelings

You don't have to teach them that these feelings are wrong.  You can still teach them that it is well worth developing self control of those emotions so then in the future they have more chance of a more pleasurable experience that is less potentially damaging to their, young persons, fragile self esteem having matured enough to recognise and evaluate the truth of a partners regard and intentions towards them.

totally agree but thats not celibacy-

> it is well worth developing self control of those emotions

> they have more chance of a more pleasurable experience

> having matured enough to recognise and evaluate the truth of a partners regard and intentions

definately, we absolutely and certainly must advocate these things, both family and school, but teaching celibacy suggests the dogmatic view of no sex till marraige, if that was not what was being suggested sorry for the confusion.

the decision to have sex for the first time is a very important one and we should definately equip children to make this decision with care and maturity, its not the same as telling them not to at all. giving thought to your method of contraception-boys and girls!-concidering what you would do if something does go wrong and pregnancy ensues- considering what facilities are available to help maintain your sexual health... if a teen can do all of these things as well as pick a partner they trust and enjoy then why not have sex? sex is wonderful and enjoyable and helps you learn things about yourself and your partner as long as it is undertaken responsibly, i think that is what needs to be emphasised to teens rather than sex is bad, don't do it!

> totally agree but thats not celibacy-
>

It is. It would be their current state.  Nobody is going to tell them not to have sex ever.  The species would die out! :-D

> sex is wonderful and enjoyable and helps you learn things about yourself and your partner as long as it is undertaken responsibly, i think that is what needs to be emphasised to teens rather than sex is bad, don't do it!

I really don't think teens need our encouragement to think that, this is of course what they believe anyway :-D  The problem is when you are young you really don't have those skills needed to ensure you are in the right relationship and will always act responsibly.  Witness the high number of single parents amongst teens.  Teaching them that they will have a better life and relationships giving it time to learn these things first, and I know that is difficult because of course at that age you don't understand that you don't know all there is to know, is not at all the same as teaching that sex is bad. 

> The problem is when you are young you really don't have those skills needed to ensure you are in the right relationship and will always act responsibly.  Witness the high number of single parents amongst teens. 

and every other age group to... whats the divorce rate in the uk now? no one at any age absolutely knows how their relationship will turn out. i think that if you sensibly enter into relationships and try and cover all the bases then you probably learn more for the future.

of course this is only my view based on my own experiences. i've had 3 main bf's in my life, one who i started going out with a 14- very young i know- who i stayed with for 2 years officially then on and off for a long time after. first love and all that who i eventually decided to sleep with (after a good long while). eventually he ended up messing me about rather and breaking my heart a fair bit. however, i generally look back smiling now, i think i came out of it far better prepared for relationships and in one- far more complete in my view- piece.

i later had another bf who essentially i went out with cause i thought i should. basically did not last long and i came out of that realising that love happens when it happens, you can't force it. still friends with that guy a few years on btw.

then i met my current partner, we were friends for a long time before it suddenly occurred to us both we were pretty perfect for each other (so far!). i would not have known what i needed from liam if i didn't have the experience of the others. i now love them both with fond memories along with foul and appreciate the knowledge they gave me and the fact that they helped me be the person i am.

so i feel that while relationships have dangers they have many many benifits long after they are done, as long as your sensible :) can everyone on the forum say that their relationships have all been perfect? can they now? i wouldn't have changed a thing along my way :)

> i wouldn't have changed a thing along my way

But things have turned out OK for you, you don't seem to have come to any harm from your young relationship but others might have found that very difficult at such a young age and I certainly don't think you need to go through something like that so very young in order to develop into someone capable of a trusting lasting relationship later. It clearly doesn't work out for everybody though. This part of the discussion has arisen out of the noting of the high teenage pregnancy rate in the UK, most of which I think we can assume are unplanned.  There are also high rates of STDs which I would say has have been exacebated by the size of the "network" of partners young people have these days.  So clearly young people are not as good as they think they are about dealing with the whole relationship thing.
Yes, you can make bad choices at every stage of your life but you can learn in more ways than just crashing through it all yourself like receiving help and education for those that have learned a little more about these things and have learned that you can control your urges rather than letting them run your life for you.

> But things have turned out OK for you

i know, great actually :) but i think thats becasue i have the information and support i needed to make it so. of course there were crappy bits, who's love life doesn't have them?, but i was informed and supported

as i said above i think that parental teaching and education should be improved to help combat the problems occuring now. i think to many families don't deal with this vital issue any more, whether you believe in no sex before marraige or free love kids need to be taught about sex and relationships or this is what happens. if a girl is told by her parents "get pregnant at 16! you'll get a house and money and not have to work! its great!" she probably will, if taught that work is good and fulfilling, that earning your money feels great and spending your own better lol :) then they'll want that.

> Yes, you can make bad choices at every stage of your life but you can learn in more ways than just crashing through it all yourself like receiving help and education for those that have learned a little more about these things and have learned that you can control your urges rather than letting them run your life for you.

thats what i was advocating- definately no crashing through (anymore than anyone does when figuring out how the opposite or even the same sex works lol), that education, though i feel it should mainly come from the family, is what solves these issues. family support is also what gets those girls and boys who find themselves as unplanned parents through it successfully :)

> So clearly young people are not as good as they think they are about dealing with the whole relationship thing

lol are they ever as good at dealing with things than they think they are?? i know i'm not! is anyone for that matter lol? :)

> lol are they ever as good at dealing with things than they think they are?? i know i'm not! is anyone for that matter lol?

I'm sure I'm not, maybe when I'm 80 :-)

lol, i have known 80 year olds who say they they aren't :)

>schools teaching that celibacy is the appropriate way to behave teaches teenagers that their perfectly natural feelings and urges are somehow wrong.

No, on the contrary. It teaches them that their feelings are natural and special and important, so it's silly to risk harming their bodies by indulging in casual sex. They need to be taught that saying No is a valid decision - it empowers them to resist being swept along with the crowd.

who says that they would be having casual sex? i totally agree that the importance and dangers of sex should be fully explained as its a difficult area.

can i check what you mean by celibacy? because to my catholic trained (but overthrown lol) mind celibate means no sex ever, like priests and nuns and i'm guessing you don't mean that as we'd be in trouble then :)

do you mean witholding till marraige? only in long term relationships? as to my mind thats not celibate, thats waiting.

I just picked a post to add to, since I had a train of thought, but doesnt really go with other posts. 

If you watch movies, over pg 13 (lol most of them are now a days anyways) the sex scenes show this wonderful thing, no bloopers happening, just this mass emotion.  Sex is perfect in movies. 

Sex is also casual in the movies and tv.  Not many people are in relationships for a period of time before jumping in the sack.  And no one ever gets pregnant (except for the movie Juno). 

Also girls are taught that if they want to be good girlfriends, they need to sleep with their men.  Its kinda messed up, since I dont remember who said that to me as a kid, but I remember thinking "to keep him, I gotta sleep with him, even though Im not ready to".  Thankfully, that didnt last long!

Sex is something, that the world messed up.  One minute you are told not to sleep with men casually, then the next you are.  Its so confusing growing up!!!!

very true, some clarification would be nice. i loved juno becasue it showed that that can happen but that its not an insurmountable issue as well. its also very funny :) (juno i mean, not teen pregnancy)

>can i check what you mean by celibacy?

Sure - not indulging in sexual activity until marriage/ other permanent partnership. What you call waiting. I think that should be taught as a viable option, rather than teaching solely about methods of contraception, which suggests that sexual activity is a foregone conclusion.

As Crespin said:

>Also girls are taught that if they want to be good girlfriends, they need to sleep with their men.

That's what I mean - by concentrating on contraception, our daughters are being brainwashed by adults as well as the media and their peersinto believing that they should be having sex.

With you all the way JG - children should be allowed to stay children without feeling the pressure of having to get into sexual relationships "because everyone else is".

I'm all for the vaccination - but so saying, it does tacitly mean that we are all condoning under-age sex - because this virus  GENERALLY (deliberate emphasis) attacks those who are sexually active at just post-pubescent age - ie below the statutory age of consent - which is still 16 here in the UK.   

I cringe when I read about little girls of 13, 14 and 15 having babies .....:(

Margot

i think that waiting is a personal choice and few would feel comfortable waiting till marraige nowadays...what if you discover on your wedding night your partner has a creepy fettish they need to get turned on or something lol or were simply very bad at it :)

i have no problem with trying to teach in schools that sex is a very serious matter that should not be entered into lightly but no sex before marraige suggests religious dogma to me so i think should be kept as far from school (other than in RE :)) as possible

of course parents are perfectly within their rights to teach it at home

> Also girls are taught that if they want to be good girlfriends, they need to sleep with their men

and that is a horribly deeply held view that women are designed as objects of the male gaze as Foucault puts it, that we are designed for male pleasure and little else- in which case i think there should not only be sex ed but gender studies classes at school to :) teach boys and girls to understand that girls are not there just to sleep with but to enjoy the company of and boys don't have to be 'roughty-toughty' and sleep around to be men

> few would feel comfortable waiting till marraige nowadays...

I don't say they have to be married and I don't think anyone else is. 

> what if you discover on your wedding night your partner has a creepy fettish

Then you would get up and go but the chances of that happening when you are married, or more realistically when you first sleep with your trusted partner, are rather more slim than when you have staggered drunkenly to the bed of someone that you have just met.
I rather feel the sexual revolution was a plot by men to get rather more of what nature has ensured civilisation and modern sensibilities will never take away their desire for.

>or were simply very bad at it

That sounds as if it's always a competition, or some kind of test of performance. :-( Where's the romance and fun in that?

"Sorry dear, you're a gorgeous person, very kind and loving and a good friend, but you're rubbish in the sack compared to all the other people I've slept with, so get lost."

I'm sure that's not what you mean, but that's how it sounds. :-(

> I rather feel the sexual revolution was a plot by men to get rather more of what nature has ensured civilisation and modern sensibilities will never take away their desire for.

i was kidding

> Then you would get up and go but the chances of that happening when you are married, or more realistically when you first sleep with your trusted partner, are rather more slim than when you have staggered drunkenly to the bed of someone that you have just met.
>

lol i feel it was the women saying, "hang on, it would appear that my body is designed to enjoy it more than yours you lazy man! get to work" :)

i was joking jeangenie! of course that not a reason to not have a relationship.

besides you can train them :)