Thats an odd way to post Uisneach but I think to suggest entire Breed clubs do not care about their dogs is rather far fetched.

Sorry I seem to have added a poll instead of a reply.   Please read the poll as my reply.
I am not very good at this.  Thanks you all for your interest and as I have already said I am very pleased that the majority of you are very caring dog owners who would not expect a bitch to have two litters in a year.

i'm not suggesting it applioes to everyone but nor am i applying it to all bitches, but you cannot say that all women, even the majority, are ready to 'breed' again as soon as their period restarts. you might not even be fit for sex then depending on the labour.

No, I can not say that Astarte :-) 

> Very noble of you :-)  Obviously the World Show would hold no interest for you as you don't show, if I remember correctly, but would you include your own childrens weddings perhaps?   Actually I say noble but that would only be so if it was in any way detrimental to your dog otherwise it would just be rather pointless to miss out.

I do show, and the World dog show was very interesting thank you. How did you get on?

As for my own children's wedding, well they are planned well in advance so easy to work a mating and litter around that one without have to bred every six months. i plan mating at least twelve months in advance.
MY DOGS COME FIRST!

That's fine Chrisy but I think it is a completely different matter to say to people that they don't care about their dogs when they run their lives with a different emphasis particularly when they is nothing to support the idea that it is detrimental to the bitch and not even the Breed Club believes it to be so.

no matter what you say Isabel i really dont think that it would give someone a good reputation, and what would the buyers of the puppies think? i would steer well clear of some one who bred their bitch twice in 1 yr and im sure plenty of other people would too

Hi Uisneach,
I think a poll is a great idea, I wouldn't know how to do one.
But there are four circles! Why not just ask would you breed two litters per year, with tow voyeing bits, one yes I would and the other No I wouldn't.
Now that would be interesting!!!!!!!!!!

> and what would the buyers of the puppies think?

I always rather hope people source their breeders through the breed club and check out what is expected along that route in which case it won't be an issue.

> That's fine Chrisy but I think it is a completely different matter to say to people that they don't care about their dogs when they run their lives with a different emphasis particularly when they is nothing to support the idea that it is detrimental to the bitch and not even the Breed Club believes it to be so.

OK!
Like humans if you do not give the body a rest and allow it to recover from giving birth, there is a higher chance of deformaties, delivery problems and death. I always advice people to checkout how often someone is breeding from the dam and how many pups they are keepimg back to show?
I'm sorry Isabel what ever you say I associate breeding ever season with puppy farming, nothing more than money orienateded.
Are you telling me you are going to keep a puppy back from both these matings?

Can put it more clearly.
AGAIN MY DOGS COME FIRST.

> there is a higher chance of deformaties, delivery problems and death.

These things also increase with age so an arguement for completing breeding plans sooner rather than later perhaps.

> I'm sorry Isabel what ever you say I associate breeding ever season with puppy farming, nothing more than money orienateded.

Again, I don't see why the costs and gains would not be the same whether back to back or eighteen months apart.

> Are you telling me you are going to keep a puppy back from both these matings?

I can't see why a breeder would be any more likely to keep or reject from a litter whether they are back to back or eighteen months apart.

> AGAIN MY DOGS COME FIRST

AGAIN :-) how does that prove that someone who does things differently doesn't?  Referring back to above about the arguements for breeding young, they could point the finger at you for leaving breeding until later! :-) But, of course, you would say where is your evidence that is detrimental? :-)

Hi Chrisy.

I think a poll would be a good idea too but as you see I dont know how to do one either.  That was a mistake.  I  clicked on poll instead of reply.!!

much as i'm against multiple breedings its not always terrible to breed twice in a year, if say a bitch of my large breed had a singleton she'd probably be fine to breed at the next season etc

i suppose there are various circs in which you;d consider it based on the bitches health- her age, the availability of a certain stud (say they were in the country being shown for a short time, or age was a factor or the stud owners were going to have him done soon), to fit the show calender and so on

i know your not suggesting multiple breedings, but in the majority of cases bitches are not ready for it again at there next season so what you were saying seemed to suggest it was fine to breed whenever you could such as first seasons, and every season.

>i suppose there are various circs in which you;d consider it

Also to avoid having puppies at Christmas, say, and the bitch would be too old at the season after ...

>Surely it is cruel to mate a bitch at every season and therefore have two litters of puppies a year.

Of course, not all bitches have two seasons per year, and (playing devil's advocate!) it's what would happen in 'nature' ... just a thought!

i dont believe that just because your breed club says its ok that it actually is, if it was then surely all breed clubs would say its ok which they certainly dont

> These things also increase with age so an arguement for completing breeding plans sooner rather than later perhaps.
>

Your's is a small breed, so breeding from 18 months is fine with most people. If you must you could breed every 12 months up untill the age of 8, so breed from small bred bitch that,'s six litters from one bitch. Why breed back to back????

> Again, I don't see why the costs and gains would not be the same whether back to back or eighteen months apart.

If you are breeding ever season, if we have to talk about money, thats two litters every twelve months, which is twice as much a one litter every year, twice the money.

>I can't see why a breeder would be any more likely to keep or reject from a litter whether they are back to back or eighteen months apart.

>

Ok depending on your size of home and time you have available. It's harder to run on two puppies six months apart than one puppy at a time. It's also easier when entering shows if there is an age gap allowing time to prep the second dog, unless you are rick enough to afford a pro handler or have very good friends. :-)

> AGAIN :-) how does that prove that someone who does things differently doesn't?  Referring back to above about the arguements for breeding young, they could point the finger at you for leaving breeding until later! :-) But, of course, you would say where is your evidence that is detrimental? :-)

We are not talking about the age you start to breeding, but breeding litter back to back.
Sorry Isabel we will NEVER agree. I am totally agaainst breeding back to back litters, without extreme circumstances.

Surely the answer lies with the bitch herself? If she hasn't recovered from a previous litter she will be in poor condition and is unlikely to conceive. Other livestock breeders have no problem in mating their animals as soon as they have given birth. Mares, for example, are usually sent with their newborn foals to the stallion to be covered again.

> Of course, not all bitches have two seasons per year, and (playing devil's advocate!) it's what would happen in 'nature' ... just a thought!

i'm fairly sure its not actually is it? pretty sure i saw a nature prog once that said that it was not every season

also yes, there are some bitches/breeds that usually have less or more than 2 a year. tibetan mastiffs apparently only usually have 1

> what you were saying seemed to suggest it was fine to breed whenever you could such as first seasons, and every season.

I don't think I have.  I have reinterated at least twice that I did not mean every season and I started right at the beginning by saying

>hobby breeders who, they feel, will not be abusing their dogs and will be governed by the overall health and well being of their bitch.

so I really think that should have been very clear.

> surely all breed clubs would say its ok which they certainly dont

Breed differences.  I don't wish to be rude to you Hayley but Breed Club committees generally have decades of specific breeding experience so I know who's opinion I would go with :-)

> Your's is a small breed, so breeding from 18 months is fine with most people. If you must you could breed every 12 months up untill the age of 8, so breed from small bred bitch that,'s six litters from one bitch. Why breed back to back????
> If you are breeding ever season, if we have to talk about money, thats two litters every twelve months, which is twice as much a one litter every year, twice the money.

I have already reiterated I am not talking about breeding again and again.  I refer only to breeders who breed two or maybe three litters within the ethics of their breed club

I can understand that many posters want to put out the message that the principal of back to back litters is undesirable but this thread seems to be awash with sweeping generalisations !

Each case should be taken on it's own merits using the facts as a guide.
The bitch should be in robust good health, a very good reason for the mating exists and breeding is not about exploiting your precious dogs.

I disagree that there is NO possible reason for choosing to mate a bitch on 2 successive seasons, indeed I have done so myself.
In my breed the bitch is MRI scanned at two and a half,
next season mate bitch...bitch misses....
next season..mate bitch....bitch misses.
Next season mate bitch...bitch whelps litter - only one male puppy survives (kept)
SO...... bitch is getting on a bit now and I don't mate my bitches over the age of 5 (increased risk.)

So I mate the bitch again...yes back to back...... and produces me 2 bitch puppies (both kept). Bitch will not be bred from again.

Where is the ££££ in that?

Thousands of pounds in stud fees ( different dogs), travelling ( 100's miles), vets fees and NO puppies sold.
Experienced breeders hopefully take a balanced and informed view and are wary of saying NEVER......

Don't tar everyone as an exploiter.

> Of course, not all bitches have two seasons per year, and (playing devil's advocate!) it's what would happen in 'nature'
>i'm fairly sure its not actually is it? pretty sure i saw a nature prog once that said that it was not every season

I meant, of course, if you let your own bitch roam loose every season to do what comes naturally, and not 'play God' by keeping her under control away from other dogs. I bet she'd have a litter at every season.

Hayley123: If you read my post above:

> i really dont think that it would give someone a good reputation

I do,

> i would steer well clear of some one who bred their bitch twice in 1 yr and im sure plenty of other people would too

They don't.
They probably see the bigger picture.

> much as i'm against multiple breedings its not always terrible to breed twice in a year, if say a bitch of my large breed had a singleton she'd probably be fine to breed at the next season etc
>

My cat has just recently had a singleton kitten and cats have a far more regular breeding cycle than dogs, I wouldn't even contemplate mating my cat again this year.  Its enough for me & her to have to raise & keep this kitten until it is 13 weeks old to want to do it again.    I would never contemplate mating a dog, even if it did have a singleton pup, twice within one year.

I believe it does nothing for the reputation of a good breeder to be seen breeding so continually.  I've never done it, I would rather be remembered for 3 litters that came every few years and contained quality rather than yearly substandard quality litters.

> to be seen breeding so continually.  I've never done it, I would rather be remembered for 3 litters that came every few years and contained quality rather than yearly substandard quality litters.

I don't know if you have read the whole thread, Christine, but it has been qualified several times that we are not discussing continuous yearly litters but exactly the 3 litters every few years type of breeding you mention.

My nan produced 14 children with 1 set of twins and she lasted into her late 70's.
Surely there's no right or wrong to this question just different opinions.
Me I stick to dogs and not bitches and I expect both sides of the opinion love their dogs and would not do anything to the detriment of their health.

How would two litters back to back raise more money than two 18 months apart?

If numerically they were the same, the latter would raise more money because you could raise the price due to increased costs - and to some people profit!

What increased costs?  And how would it equal more profit if costs were increased?

> i really dont think that it would give someone a good reputation

I do,

well you might but i certainly wouldnt think very highly of some one who did it/does it

> i would steer well clear of some one who bred their bitch twice in 1 yr and im sure plenty of other people would too

They don't.
They probably see the bigger picture.

really? what bigger picture would that be then? and seeing that you kept both the pups how would you actually know?

When it comes to reputation Hayley I think some peoples regard would be more important to a breeder than anothers.  For myself I would care about the opinions of those who had experience and their own good reputation within the breed not really about anyway who couldn't really appreciate the bigger picture that tooolz refers to.

> and seeing that you kept both the pups how would you actually know?

I can't see where you are going there Hayley and wonder if you understand what Tooolz means by the bigger picture.
I take it to mean the breeds breeding characteristics and general health as a whole, the individuals health and the requirement and plans of that breeder.  What are you taking it to mean?

Thinking about it the bigger picture from the purchasers point of view might mean that they are viewing happy, healthy puppies with a happy, healthy mother and maybe that is what Tooolz meant.  Sorry Tooolz if you are meaning something completely different :-)

And of course Breeding Licences are issued by the local Council under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act, and that is law.

Seems to me the fact that there is a Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999 that is law, means that there must be a reason why they don't believe a bitch should be bred from within a 12 month period due to welfare concerns.

> Seems to me the fact that there is a Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999 that is law, means that there must be a reason why they don't believe a bitch should be bred from within a 12 month period due to welfare concerns.

But the fact that it was not applied to all dog breeders suggests that the law makers, like the Kc, recognise that outside commercial enterprises there is the scope for responsible breeding outside this rule. 

Depends on what each individual thinks is responsible breeding. Not everyone thinks the same way.

No they don't :-)

Well, I'm sure if you left a years break from a litter - feed will certainly have gone up in price.  I have just had notification of a second price increase in what I feed my girls in less than 6 months!  Stud fees may have increased - not much stays the same in price from one year to the next!  Even your everyday expenses like additional washing powder/electricity will all have gone up too.

> i would steer well clear of some one who bred their bitch twice in 1 yr and im sure plenty of other people would too

They don't.
They probably see the bigger picture.

seeing that you kept both the pups how would you actually know

sorry this is how that post should have been

I think we just have to live with that because you are probably going to want to breed sometime in the future.

i ment in exceptional circs christine, not that it would be ok as a standard thing.

is anyone else getting annoyed by it always jumping to the start of this thread with the poll? can we fix it?

My cat has just recently had a singleton kitten and cats have a far more regular breeding cycle than dogs, I wouldn't even contemplate mating my cat again this year.  Its enough for me & her to have to raise & keep this kitten until it is 13 weeks old to want to do it again.  

Christine that's a bit OTT. :) It's perfectly fine to mate a queen soon again if she's just had the one kitten. (And sometimes you won't even have the CHOICE as some singleton mums start calling so strongly after just 5 or 6 weeks that they lose condition and have to be mated again for their own wellbeing.) I'd do the next mating within 6 months personally as long as she was in good condition -there is absolutely no reason NOT to. You can't compare dogs and cats here. Their breeding cycles, they way they rear their young etc etc is so different. Not to mention that if you leave a queen as long between litters as you can do with a bitch, she risks getting ill -it just does not work. Leaving 2 years in between litters for instance -no way. The queen will eventually go into one long continuous call that never ends. Then you'd need to spay. Most breeders will have a litter from a queen every 10 to 12 months with 5 or 6 litters in a lifetime if she is a good mum -that would never work with bitches as they lose far more condition. But bitches don't run the same risks if not mated regularly. Their season won't increase in length and frequency. :)

Well it seems you learn something every day...

I was always led to believe , avoid those breeders who breed back to back...as they where more than likely BYB... and unethical..

But from what I read here (from some)  as long as you have a good reason and it suits  your purpose (not the dogs)   it is OK .

I am afraid , I will stick to me original thoughts... if I found a breeder who bred back to back..I would look else where.........no matter how good or convincing their reasons would be.

glad to hear from another who would steer clear of back to back breeders! :)

yes astarte i wondered why it kept doing that!

Not even just Cats to Dog Marianne. :-)  (I know nothing about breeding cats) breed to breed in dogs varies so much as we know. I can't bare the generalisations of breeds put collectively at times.   My breed has 3-4 puppies on average.   They would have less puppies in a life time that some large breeds would have in one littter.  So the comparions from breed to breed, animal to animal  in general are inconclusive really.

I think the KC hope that those with common sense and being good breeders will use it and are giving hobby breeders the option to use this common sense. I can understand licenced breeders who are breeding puppies for a living being controlled differently.     Most people being ethical wouldn't breed repeatedly from a bitch except in exceptional circumstances and there are a couple that have been outlined. Toolz gave a perfect one.  Anyone who couldn't see that this was a perfect and 100% acceptable example are lacking the common sense the Kennel club and Government have asked breeders to use.

> I wouldn't even contemplate mating my cat again this year. 

> I'd do the next mating within 6 months personally as long as she was in good condition

I know I'm being picky here but 6 months on isn't this year!   ;-)  As I originally said!

And of course let's not forget that not every bitch has a regular 6-month cycle. One who has a shorter cycle could have a litter, then a clear season, and then another litter and still be whelping within 12 months; without knowledge of her cycle many people would assume that the two litters were, in fact, back-to-back.

I think the KC hope that those with common sense and being good breeders will use it and are giving hobby breeders the option to use this common sense. I can understand licenced breeders who are breeding puppies for a living being controlled differently.     Most people being ethical wouldn't breed repeatedly from a bitch except in exceptional circumstances and there are a couple that have been outlined. Toolz gave a perfect one.  Anyone who couldn't see that this was a perfect and 100% acceptable example are lacking the common sense the Kennel club and Government have asked breeders to use.

But it is also open to abuse, therefore should have better guidelines. Some unethical breeders will just believe this gives them carte blanche, and there will most definitely be breeders like that out there. I cannot see the problem following the Licensed Breeders guidelines. After all, your bitch misses and you don't get your desired litter, very upsetting, but one could say that there is a reason why the bitch missed and it wasn't meant to be. There is always another time, bitches don't have  to have 5 or 6 litters in a lifetime.

> But it is also open to abuse, therefore should have better guidelines.

That is where the Breed Club comes in.   They may allow a back to back litter if appropriate for their breed but the code will also set a cap on the total number of litters, generally much less than the KC permitted number, and will always require breeders to breed without detriment to their bitch.   Source your puppy through the Breed Club and you will have that assurance.

> really? what bigger picture would that be then? and seeing that you kept both the pups how would you actually know?

Because I've been breeding top quality dogs for (probably) longer than you've been alive with a well established (good) reputation.
Most people who contact me for puppies already know and appreciate that.