> I think you missed a vital part of the previous post that you were answering ...towhit:
>

Ummm I think I put that she must be exceptional at the end of the sentence???

> Exceptional people will succeed ..there is no doubt about it

Who are we to say when they are children who is and isn't exceptional?

> If you want your children to wear what they want, have hair as long as they want etc etc ...school them at home ..after all, teaching is such a simple job , or it would seem several people here think it is :-)

Not at all, I have never said that teaching is simple. I have the utmost respect for my daughters teachers and have always respected what they have asked of me in terms of rules etc. I believe that Lea had said that her son would always have his hair neat and tidy and that it would be out of his eyes therefore I don't see the problem and i'm sure most sensible teachers wouldn't either :-)

In fact I am a huge fan of school uniform ;-)

Jeangenie - I don't dispute what you are saying but not all employers are the same, hence my personal experience :-)

Wow what a debate about the length of hair lol ;-)

LOL, I didnt think it would turn into Such a debate!!!!
One thing I dont think has been covered is the title. Is it sex discrimination????
I have the utmost respect for teachers and know there should be rules, and yes, as much as I curse spending a fortune in the summer holidays on uniform, it is far better than having to spend a fortune every few months for my kids to stay in with the fashion, which would happen if there was no school uniform.
Also as I have said, my son respects the rules of the school, backed up by me, and the teachers, so much so he went on a reward trip, only the best behaved kids are invited on it, so deffinatly not against discapline!!!!
But I still feel hairstyles is not about discapline, but an archaic, out dated rule that serves no purpose other than a rule for the sake of a rule!!! If they said, like they do girls that it must be tyed back in science and PE, surely that is equal to the girls.
Lea :)

Sex discrimination is a serious issue but still there have to be boundaries.  I applaud individual differences, but the fact is the school has its rules and like them or not you should abide by them unless they are totally unreasonable. 

I don't believe that asking a boy to keep his hair to collar length is unreasonable even though I do think you could have a point to argue.  I think there are far more important issues that need to be addressed in schools before getting into a rift with the school over such a trivial matter.  The bugbear I had with my kids' school is that they didn't communicate with me on important points regarding education.  Even so, I tried my best to show a united front with the school because we are supposed to have a common cause and that is the successful education of children.

Like someone else said on here, I didn't agree with all the rules and have on occasion said so to my kids but didn't give them permission to rebel.

On the point of sex discrimination, my OH thinks it's unfair that women have lockable cubicles just to go for a wee :-p

At the end of the day, boys and girls are only children for a very short period of their lives :) They should realise that they are adults (and, therefore able to do more or less what they want) for a long long time.

>my OH thinks it's unfair that women have lockable cubicles just to go for a wee

Well he wouldn't if he had to wee like we do :D :D Shall I slap him or will you?

:) :) :)

>my OH thinks it's unfair that women have lockable cubicles just to go for a wee

>Well he wouldn't if he had to wee like we do :D :D Shall I slap him or will you?

I have a solution for that :D :D
:- http://shop.packyourbags.com/acatalog/Shewee_Ladies_Wee_Funnel.html
Lea :D

>Shall I slap him or will you?

Nah, it's ok, I apparently have killer looks and have been killing him all day today :-D

Lea, I could have done with one of those doo dahs a couple of weeks ago when stuck in a traffic jam and had to nip in the bushes in front of everyone else. Talk about "We know what you're doing"

I havnt had the guts to use one yet, but they are good for runners!!!!
its amazing the amount of bushes you can find to hide behind when Marathon training!!!!
Lea :)

> Is it sex discrimination????

I think it's sex discrimination. What a stupid rule. Why can a girl have long hair & not a boy. Some children need to express thierselfs and feel strongly about thier appereance, why on earth should a boy have to cut his hair to fit in with a rule that would let a girl keep the same length hair. I agree hair should be tidy and tied back if rquired, but I would not force my sons to have thier hair cut if thier hair was longer than the school rules allowed.

Yes, our children need to learn to accept autority, but they also need to know that you can't spend the rest of your life obeying orders that you don't agree with, if you believe in something you need to stand up for it - stand up for yourself.  Society would never progress if rules were never challenged.
Of course we need rules, but we do not need to be dictated to. If girls can have thier hair longer than thier collars than so can boys.

I now there are jobs that have strict hair-style rules, but you have a choice to apply for that job or not - children have no choice but to attend school, OK parents can teach thier children at home, but the kids then miss out on valuable social skills. I also think that moving your child to a different school over 1 little rule is OTT far too much disruption to the childs schooling. I would challenge the rule, especially if there is a male teacher at the school with hair that breaks the rule.

My son (10yrs old) has a friend with his hair quite long, he grows it long to hide his ears - I expect he would rather bunk off school than have his hair cut short, the poor kid :(

>when stuck in a traffic jam and had to nip in the bushes in front of everyone else. Talk about "We know what you're doing

That wasn't on the way to Waddington Airshow was it?? LMAO We saw some ladies having to dive out of the jam for that :)

>but the kids then miss out on valuable social skills

Such as obeying rules? ;)

>but the kids then miss out on valuable social skills
>Such as obeying rules? 

Is this why people say that youngsters have no respect and that Society's falling apart?

But my kids obey rules. its just one thing that I dont like and believe it is sex descrimination.
I am not saying my kids should flout the rules at all.
And having up to 60 kids that you are trying to tell what to do, and some of them not listening to me every monday night (with fellow coaches), I know the virtues of installing discaplin and respecting your elders!!!!!!!
But I still stand by the fact that the hair is a rule for the sake of a rule LOL
Lea :)

> Is this why people say that youngsters have no respect and that Society's falling apart?

Are you saying that children that are home-schooled are the naughty ones?

From my experience*, home-schooled children may often achieve a very high academic standard, but their social skills have been somewhat lacking.    Because they have not come up against rules and regulations they have been unsure of just how to behave - and expect society in general to be really, truely interested in the individual.   Sadly, this is not always the case.   Whilst the individual has been nurtured, the individual as a member of a team/group, has no idea of his/her place in the general workaday world.

Schools, with all their faults, can at least equip a child for society as it is.   Home-schooling equips a child for an ideal world.  Sadly, we don'tlive in this ideal world.

Margot

*Here, I'm talking about 7 or 8 individuals, raning in age from 40 to 13.

> Is this why people say that youngsters have no respect and that Society's falling apart?
>Are you saying that children that are home-schooled are the naughty ones?

No, why on earth would I think that? I'd hope home-schooled children are even better disciplined than those who aren't, because there wouldn't be the possible 'bad influences' of outsiders.

Right ..........of course they do
I am not only a parent, I come from a family with several teachers and I even have my very own EWO ! I have enormous respect for teachers and authority as do my children, this was instilled in them, I am also a realist. But I said I also have taught them to stand up for their beliefs. Authority does not always equal right.
if you believe in something you need to stand up for it - stand up for yourself.  Society would never progress if rules were never challenged
Martin Luther KIng, Nelson Mandella's parents may have said similar.

Agree with you there bilbobaggins. I teach my children to have minds of their own, rather than blindly accepting rules they might ask 'what is the reason for this rule? Does it seem reasonable?' etc. When I was at school I certainly did this and found ways to use my initiative to get round the more pointless rules, whilst sticking by those which were clearly sensible. And I don't think that looking in any way 'unconventional' when young would mean you won't conform to dress codes later.   

I chose my children's school not just for academic reasons but also for other things When visiting prospective schools this one stood out that every pupil was in the school uniform, at lesson changeover the children moved between lessons swiftly and without fuss. Also it had a purpose built music and drama block and Art was timetabled weekly and not lumped into technology which consisted of a number of subjects getting 6 week slots.

My eldest was rubbish at art but I still considered it important enough for her to do every week because through art you can express yourself. As it turned out she took up violin (I learned to like it :-) ) and took to drama enthusiastically but the 2nd child really enjoyed the art each week.  There are many ways to express yourself, especially at school. 

>Martin Luther KIng, Nelson Mandella's parents may have said similar.

In the order of things that these iconic men stood for and believed in I think hair length wouldn't even come into the equation.  They stood up for an oppressed race, British children are not oppressed, spoilt perhaps and clueless about how difficult life could be but not oppressed.

>Authority does not always equal right.

True, we see it all the time but we still abide by it unless we have good cause to challenge it.  First we weigh up the cost and benefit of our intended actions before we proceed.  IMO I think the cost outweights the benefit in this case.

Teachers may well be out of touch with fashions but those who create boundaries keep discipline and I would argue that those with the best discipline get the best performance from their students.

yep ....agree wholeheartedly !!! to be frank adhering to boundaries set by others is part of educating a child  for life - in every facet of our lives we have to obey rules ( sometimes incomprehensible ones at that !)

Look around you - those schools who insist that their students are smart and well presented and who have a strict uniform policy  will in the main be high achieving schools - parents should be supporting the school rather than encouraging their child to kick against the rules.

Yvonne

Couldn't agree with you more Yvonne :)

My son is also a Royal Marine. That is not just respect for authority it is also standing for opressed..

>My son is also a Royal Marine

I'm guessing that they don't have much choice on hair length ;-) :-)

The forces take discipline to the highest level because lives depend upon it.   Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't every minute detail of a marine's life controlled by rules and regulations?

Imagine a mariine or any other forces recruit evaluating the rules and choosing which ones were appropriate to him/herself.

BTW good on your son for doing what seems to be such an undervalued job.  It goes without saying that you must be very proud of him :-)

Have you watched any of the programms? That teaching them how to shower properly is no exaggeration !! The only thing that is not is table manners. You should see the cadets eat their scram. it is like they have been starved,plates piled high with as many carbs as possible. They are urged while in traing to eat in excess of 3000 cals. After the first month we went down to visit my son was obviously already pretty fit but you should of seen him I was so F*ing proud I made that boy!!!
But that is my point my son also argued at school about the colour of his socks ,he was disciplined for it, the important element was showing respect for his teachers, school and his fellow pupils.He  was also taught to stand up for his beliefs and rights that is why he is a Marine. Teachers have to reasonable. The original post stated that her son was a good pupil so does his hair length at school matter, the good pupil is the important element. She should be very proud of that fact.

It's not about individual teachers though, it's about the school rules.  The rules have been put in place at some point and parents have supported them.  If the time has come to change the rules then this should be done through the processes laid out by the school governers.

Surely this would be a good example to children of how to initiate change or how actually the majority do not think the same way as you do.

I understand your concerns, in my son's school (they are 21 & 23 now) and still is the same as I have a nephew there. No girls wear trousers, all boys hair is to coller length, girls cant wear short schools. As soon as you bend rules they are broken.
Ben had 12 GCSE's Sam 13. Thats what i wanted from there school.
I supported the school whole heartedly as it was very strict, my two hit 6' by about 14 years old, and they needed a strong strict school.
They had a few detentions especially Ben.
The boys did very well in lessons as they split boys from girls at 13, it had been tried in other schools and it works because boys & girls are v. different. I had two step daughters, same school and my two sons. They are chalk and cheese. Girls have periods PMS and boys don't!!
Im sorry but they aren't the same.
I do agree with your concerns re stereotyping which is what i think you mean. My Ben wears his hair shaved, and people look at him like he is a thug!! its short because he has a cow lick and it looks dopey long. Sam is long usually blonde, green, pink, orange and he has pierceings. Neither are thugs, or anything really just themseleves. BUT, they did all the shaving and pierceings at college and Uni, at school they conformed. Which is what i wanted, structures & rules are important (in my eyes) to ensure that kids know rules are there for a reason. Whilst it may seem trivial now in the long run it may help him to realise that sometimes you just have to do what you are told even if it isn't logical.
Im all for different rules for boys and girls.
Im the Director of a construction company with 25 men and I am the only female, different rules didnt stop me getting where I wanted to be, but I am not the same as my male counterparts, and I respect the differences.

.

After reading  again my last post, the English teacher who meant so much to me, would be dismayed at my grammar and spelling errors.
Sorry Miss Forsyth..

i don;t think that he is trying to disrespect authority, at the end of the day the person with most authority over him is his mother, who approves and supports him.

i used to go to school in gallons of white makeup, eyeliner, plum hair, massive platform biker boots and fishnet tights (passed that phase now thankfully!). i have never been in trouble with authority. self expression (however misguided as mine was lol) should not be stifled when it has no effect on a teachers ability to teach or a childs ability to learn. teenagers will always experiment with their appearence as they try and define themselves

i do agree that there is a problem with authority in this country today, and while i believe in rights i also believe in responsibilities and respect. i think leas son has the right to express himself, he also has the right to learn, but he has also shown respect by looking to his authority figure (his mum) for support rather than just being defiant.

just becasue your in authority doesn;t make you right and so why shouldn;t parents question rules if they feel they are wrong?

Nobody's suggesting children should wear school uniform fulltime. They have plenty of time for self-expression in their own time, before school, after school, at the weekends and during the long holidays. :-) A time and a place for everything.

> just becasue your in authority doesn;t make you right and so why shouldn;t parents question rules if they feel they are wrong?

That is a very valid point!

If there was a rule that I disagreed with imposed from my daughters school i would speak to the school and the governers about getting it changed, if everything always stayed the same there would be no progression.

jeangenie, how exactly is he supposed to have long hair outside school hours but have short hair within them?

lol, that was my first thought too.

you are in school until 16 and out for the rest of your naturals. Whilst as a child you think its a long time in school its not long. At college you can express yourself, mine wanted green hair, i said fine, he went blonde and just used wash in dyes. He has piecings in his lip, eyebrow & ear, he has freedome to express his individuality. At non uniform day he wore a full Tux into school. But he was dressed the same as everyone else during school hours, its not a major point long hair is it? Its also easier to control nits and things with shorter hair at school, is it worth a real fuss when in a year or two he could do what he wished. Is it not a more important lesson to obey the rules?
I do not think its sex descrimination per see but girls are different to boys whatever your view point. Its not a huge issue in life compared with child abuse, bullying, cruelty, famine and stabbing is it? All issues school deal with in a greater or lesser degree, plus sats, GCSE's and whatever the govet seek to impose on our teachers during term time.

> I do not think its sex descrimination per see but girls are different to boys whatever your view point

It's obvious that girls are different to boys, but a boys hair will grow as long as a girls hair if not cut, this isn't about the natural differences between the boys & girls it is about boys & girls being TREATED differently = sex descrimination.
The rule that a boys hair should be CUT short (it doesn't naturally grow short) while a girl is free to grow her hair long has nothing to do with health & safety or catching nits, if a boy has to cut his hair short when he wants to grow it long - just because his gender is not female - that IS sex descrimination.

I disagree, sex descrimination is about boys not being allowed to do things like cooking, girls not allowed to play football ect its equal opportunities.
Hair is stereotyping, my previous post admitted that its asking boys to conform to a standard, albeit one that says short hair. Girls have to conform to skirts ect. They are different sex's and there should be different rules. Are you honestly telling me that you consider not allowing a boy longer hair is sex descrimination? Not in my opinion, but have it your way if it makes you happy. I would have been v. upset if I could not tell the sex of my son from my step daughter at school. I think my boys looked great, really smart and the girls looked much better than they did out in the evenings.
Why seek to change school rules, just change school if the rules at that one do not fit.

The same School my son goes to allows the Girls to wear TROUSERS!!!!!!!
So they have changed the rule to adapt to the girls wanting trousers, but still think the boys shouldnt have longer hair!!!!!
Lea :)

Have you asked the school why the rule is in place?

Nope, for the simple reason I only got the letter on Friday night, and it got me thinking about the rule, but school finished on Friday LOL
Lea :)

> Are you honestly telling me that you consider not allowing a boy longer hair is sex descrimination?

Yes.
There are plenty of girls that have thier hair short (and I mean in a 'boys' style not just a bob), I bet  people would complain if a rule was brought in stating that girls MUST have long hair, past thier collars, as short hair is for boys only!!!!

>I would have been v. upset if I could not tell the sex of my son from my step daughter at school.

Funnily enough, when I was 15, with hair down to my butt, I was mistaken for a boy????? The shop-keeper was very red-faced when my mum pointed out I'm female. I was quite miffed too, but the point is the lenght of hiar does not dictate your sex and your sex should not dictate your length of hair.

If a 'steroetype' is only gender-specific, does it then not become sex-descrimination??

>Why seek to change school rules, just change school if the rules at that one do not fit.

The point is that there is no reason why boys should not be allowed to have long hair, but keep it tidy & tied back, it is a petty rule and not worth disruping a childs schooling over. It isn't the army, or police force, this is SCHOOL, the boys will not learn any more by having to keep thier hair short.

>how exactly is he supposed to have long hair outside school hours but have short hair within them?

His hair could grow a lot during the summer holidays, before he goes back in September. The other 'out of hours' examples are for clothes and make-up freedoms.

>The point is that there is no reason why boys should not be allowed to have long hair, but keep it tidy & tied back,

Perhaps that should be suggested as a new Sixth-form privilege?

>it is a petty rule and not worth disruping a childs schooling over.

That applies equally to both sides, of course.

I think its worth remembering that what may seem trivial to one person may mean alot to another and whilst to alot of people it seems like Lea's son should like it or lump it, where do we draw the line? Do we adhere to all rules and never challenge them regardless of our beliefs? Should Lea's son have to move school because he wants to grow his hair? Alot of people years ago felt that it was petty for girls to want to wear trousers but for alot of girls this was important to them. The school we have chosen for my daughter has a student school council (in primary school) where they are allowed to challenge and put forward ideas from a very young age in order for the children to feel a sense of responsibility and that their voices are heard.....and yes this primary school is within the top 50 in the UK :-)

> Its not a huge issue in life compared with child abuse, bullying, cruelty, famine and stabbing is it?

> you are in school until 16 and out for the rest of your naturals

18 for me actually

> Whilst as a child you think its a long time in school its not long

13 years isn't long?? what is then?

> its not a major point long hair is it?

to a self concious teen it probably is, i know other stuff bothered me, where as to a school why does it matter? is a reason given for the boys being denied their right to self determine their appearance?

its indicative of a wider social view that establishes sex differences that do not actually exist and reduce the freedoms of either sex, so yes it is important. people used to argue the same way that women shouldn't vote/work etc.

> Its also easier to control nits and things with shorter hair at school

if someone had said that to me then told me to cut my hair i'd have refused. boys or girls hair is all the same to nits

> Is it not a more important lesson to obey the rules?

he's not disobeying the rules, his mother is questioning them

> but girls are different to boys whatever your view point

aside from the biological differences the only differences between girls and boys are those that we are socialised to have, in a way that is generally considered backward and wrong now. if my school had banned my sister from having short hair there would have been uproar.

>

> you are in school until 16 and out for the rest of your naturals
>18 for me actually

Those last two are voluntary, not compulsory ...

>13 years isn't long?? what is then?

The 60 years or so (barring accident or illness) of the rest of your life after you've left school!

i'd still consider those 13 years a long time, its hardly a short break is it?

and yes, they are voluntary however are you saying that your not allowed to freely express yourself and want to get good qualifications? frankly i quite enjoyed doing both.

>i'd still consider those 13 years a long time

I wouldn't though. Even my 22 year old son now says that he wishes life was as easy as it was then.
Yes, I enjoyed rebelling at the time. But it definitely spoiled my exam results and wrecked my career. Such a shame to see history repeating itself.

i mean no offence but i'm sure not everyone doe as you say mess up their exams and mess up their career, i didn;t, my friends didn't, my sister went into one of her higher exams drunk and still got a B and walked into the perfect job after uni (not recommending that!).

its not rebellion, he simply wants to try a new look, i wouldn't say you or i getting a new haircut is rebellion, just because he's a teen does not make it so either. and i certainly don;t think its rebellion if his mums encouraging him!

> Such a shame to see history repeating itself

not sure what you mean by that

That's not 13 years anxting about hair dos though is it?  Although teenagers do get more concious about their appearance I think rules aimed at conforming are actually helpful in this respect as they remove the level of competition that can cripple some children who don't quite get the "fashion" right.

no, but having anxiety about other things- not getting the right toy for christmas in primary school (i'm sure we all remember the teletubbie business a few years ago), what gym stuff (i certainly got mocked for my dunlop trainers!). i think if a kid wants to bully another kid they will. i was bullied terribly at school mainly for trying to fit in when i didn;t! then i reallised i couldn't be bothered, had some wonderful friends and embrased being different.

If all you have to worry about is whther you can or cannot have long hair at school then you are very lucky :)

A lot of kids today are too obssessed with the way they look and what they wear ..yet another reason for everyone to look more or less the same