mmm I don't think that's the best way to learn. So Hayley you go to visit someones dogs and they tell you how great they are so you use it at stud?

I agree with Isabel, I think if you are serious about a breed then you need to go to shows, over a period of years, to learn about that breed before thinking of breeding your own dogs. It's not just about what you 'think' looks good - how can you give a qualified opinion if you haven't done your 'apprenticeship', if you haven't sat at the ringside and listened to the established breeders and asked questions, if you haven't been to the club seminars etc.

If you don't work or show your dogs or do anything to prove their worth then how on earth can you say they're worth breeding from? There are thousands of rescue dogs with 'nice temperaments' waiting for homes.

Not quite sure I agree with this idea a dog has to be shown to prove it is going to produce good progeny.

My foundation bitch is not a particularly good example she has a straight stifle and is bum high, her ears are too small and her marking apalling however she has been mated to two different dogs and produced two champions and 3 other children who were all crufts qualified one gaining a RCC.  The best bitches or dogs do not always produce the best examples in my experience.  I hate to admit it even to myself but oldest champion has never produced the quality her mum did although her progeny do well and have had various awards including RCC's.

If you have a good mentor to start with this is far more valuable and I was lucky I did.  :)

I am fairly new (in the scheme of things!) to my breed.  I have so far bred one litter, out of my 'working' bitch (trained to pick up, and has worked, but primarily a pet). She has so far not been shown, but has been assessed by a breed judge. I did every thing properly, hip scores, eye tests etc, although no elbow scores as they are still quite new in my breed, and a lot of bitch owners don't use them, or chose to ignore bad scores and my mentor told me I didn't need them. (she is no longer my mentor, although we keep in touch, I feel somewhat disillusioned to her now, although she is well meaning).

Anyway, the more I do learn, the more I realise I just don't know that much at all, so I spend most of my time feeling like a total numpty. I decided I wanted to do things properly, so I bought a puppy from a very well known breeder and judge in my breed, who was happy to advise me and helped me chose a puppy, chosing the one she would keep if she were going to keep one. Obviously she may not turn out as well as we'd hoped, her health tests might not come back good enough etc and I have to admit, it will be quite hard if she doesn't turn out good enough to do well int he show ring, or breed from, as my heart is set on that. But she is primarily a pet so I will not pass her on if she doesn't 'make the grade' and will not breed from her either. She does have endorsements anyway, so I doubt they would be lifted unless she does do very well.

As for my older bitch, she will not be bred from again until I have have shown her (assuming she does well enough) and she has been elbow scored. I might consider breeding from her again if her daughter who I have here also does well in the show ring, and turns out well enough, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

I find it all very daunting I have to admit, but am determined to do it properly, for myself, my dogs and the breed I love. I hate going to ringcraft as I find most people unfriendly, although a few are nice. I doubt showing will be that different.

I thik although the OP may have been a bit naive, she did the best she could in the circumstances, and is clearly trying to learn now, so what good is berating her going to do? Everyone has to start somewhere, and yes, some people do make mistakes, I think the important part is that once they are aware of those mistakes they are prepared tolearn and improve things.

Also, although I do agree with what most people on here have to say regarding breeding, I do think some have a holier than thou attitude. I know of some very, very successful breeders in my breed, who judge at the top shows, and yet 'churn out' puppies like puppy farms. These are surely the ones who newcomers look up to? Whether that is because my breed is aprolific one, I don't know, but I would imagine it happens in other breeds too.

I agree the more you learn the harder as well to find a stud dog believe me.  I think you have to be 100% honest with yourself and study your bitch and if you use your dog at stud look at him and think will he help improve the bitch he is to be mated to. 

I know with my mini the breeder who bred her said although she is too small for the show ring she does have some fantastic qualities so she will hopefully be my foundation for my mini's.

I will not breed my beagle with have tried twice and although I feel the combination might have been wrong she has not got a very sound temperment so I am going to have her neutered now.

Sorry Mandy but

showing is about the breed standard and if you are into your breed and as i do have many friends that show and have even judged then you should know what the breed standard requires and any faults within your own breed. hence not needing to take my own dogs into the ring, if my dogs were not close enough to breed standard and more importantly didnt have sound temperaments and health then i wouldnt consider breeding from them

You MAY think you understand the breed standard and you MAY think you dog or dogs conform to it but that does mean they do. Showing or even attending shows is how you really learn the differences between dogs, it gives you an understanding of what the breed standard is asking for and of course what it actually means.

Anyone can read something and think they understand it but put it into practice is a whole different ball games.   Watching loads and loads of different dogs move gives a better understanding of construction and movement,  and why a dog moves a certain way. This doesn't come from reading an A4 bit of paper. I am afraid.

That isn't common sense that is someone a little naive I am afraid to say.

> I decided I wanted to do things properly,

And you should be applauded for that

> I thik although the OP may have been a bit naive, she did the best she could in the circumstances, and is clearly trying to learn now

Yes I agree, better to have learned from mistakes and move forward.
We've all been a bit numpty (if we care to admit it) but ideally should be able to look back and feel that we've evolved by having an open mind.
IMHO

Not quite sure I agree with this idea a dog has to be shown to prove it is going to produce good progeny.

My foundation bitch is not a particularly good example she has a straight stifle and is bum high, her ears are too small and her marking apalling however she has been mated to two different dogs and produced two champions and 3 other children who were all crufts qualified one gaining a RCC.  The best bitches or dogs do not always produce the best examples in my experience.  I hate to admit it even to myself but oldest champion has never produced the quality her mum did although her progeny do well and have had various awards including RCC's.

 

Chloe, there is a big difference with a dog that has the odd fault that didn't throw it as to a dog that bares no resemblence to the breed at all. You often find this little minority group have the later. ( Not always but often)  :-)

We all started somewhere, I am sure if she threw 2 litters of total pet quality you wouldn't have continued that line.

how dare you call me naive!!!!!!

if you had read my posts properly you would of seen that i have been to many many shows and understand what showing is about, where exactly did i state that i read what i need to know from a bit of A4 paper???, you are extremely rude and i do not appreciate you making your posts personal.

choosing not to show DOES NOT make me irresponsible, breeding too often, breeding unhealthy unscreened dogs, crossbreeds, not caring where the offspring go etc etc thats is irresponsible!

As stated on here already by someone that did show, and something i have experinced visiting shows many times, the winner is often known before anyone steps in the ring! Hmmmmmm Strange that!

mmm I don't think that's the best way to learn. So Hayley you go to visit someones dogs and they tell you how great they are so you use it at stud?

what are you on about? and who are you to talk, arent you the one amongst others who leaves their dogs home alone for hours while you work and if they need the toilet they go by the back door or whatever? RESPONSIBLE? i dont think so

isabel obviously isnt the perfect breeder considering she herself admitted that she dont show that much, and i have to say that you dont have to show to be able to know what a good dog is, i dont show alot but i can tell what is a good dog and what isnt,even some champions ive seen dont look that great

I can say the same things about Champions.  And I am not a judge, but I know my breed standard.  And when the breed standard says a dog shall be disqualified if it reaches 13 inches high at whithers, and you see CH that measure close to 15 inches.  Those dogs should not be champions, but disqualified. 

But to the OP, I think you did a great job, with the information and situation you had.  You keep in contact with the puppies homes, you got them KC reg with endorsments, you got your bitch and male hip scored (for the sake of the puppy owners, as you said), and you have read up like crazy about your breed.

Yes, a lot of people are going to say that you need to show your dog in some sort of dog sport.  Conformation is not the end all and be all.  I may blasted for saying this, but at least from what I have experienced, some judges dont know a thing about the breed they are judging.  Dump a dog cos it moves correctly, when all the other dogs in the ring move wrong, and the wrong movement is considered normal?  These oversized dogs getting their CH (cmon a 6 month old puppy, should not be oversized!!!!!)  But you want to do something that proves your dog is a good dog.  Obedience, agility, conformation, breed specific sports, etc.  And you will have fun with them.

But, not all great producers of dogs are Champions.  I know many a people, that breed their dogs, who arent champions, but have been in the breed forever (30+years) and how used to show, and just cant anymore, or they dont want to anymore.  A CH infront of their name, to me, means only a little.  *from my experience with shows

Congrats to you, for doing an amazingly good job in light of the circumstances

how dare you call me naive!!!!!!  Please try not to drag this thread  into the gutter it will only get locked.   My post wasnt a personal attack not sure why you have taken it like that. You would think I had hit a nerve.  It is always the same on here, people don't like being told the truth.

Your comments in the post which I QUOTED which I will quote again due to your claim of personal attack are comments I think a little naive. Saying that you don't need to go to shows to understand the breed standard or in the case of working lines which we are not talking about IS naive. Like it or lump it.

YOU SAID QUOTE showing is about the breed standard and if you are into your breed and as i do have many friends that show and have even judged then you should know what the breed standard requires and any faults within your own breed. hence not needing to take my own dogs into the ring, if my dogs were not close enough to breed standard and more importantly didnt have sound temperaments and health then i wouldnt consider breeding from them  

Just because your freinds show and they have judged!! doesnt mean you understand.  For all I care you may well know your breed well but it DOESN'T make your statement in your post correct.

What is it on here when the going gets tough out come the childish outbursts.

> What is it on here when the going gets tough out come the childish outbursts

It seems to be an alternative 'doggie sport' Blue.
Too much time on their hands being at home 24/7

the winner is often known before anyone steps in the ring! Hmmmmmm Strange that!
Ever thought that many people have seen it and admired it ( or feared and cursed it) before it walked into the ring?

I have no axe to grind either way as sometimes I feel like showing and sometimes I go for very long periods without ever seeing a showring.
BUT I bet that if I suddenly decide to go to a show and heaven forbid, win, well watch those tongues wag.
Couldn't be just a good dog winning in the hands of a very bone idle exhibitor?

if you are into your breed and as i do have many friends that show and have even judged then you should know what the breed standard requires and any faults within your own breed
But only in the opinions of your friends surely and dog showing works by sharing many peoples opinions not just those you want to hear.

i think the only one dragging this post into the gutter is you blue!!!!!!!!!

i simply made a comment that i did not appreciate being branded as irresponsible, i was not the one that came on here making broad statements and branding everyone who dont show irresponsible.

How can you say it was not a personal attack - you stated my name and claimed i was naive and thats not personal!!!!!!!

and now to add you had called me childish again i suppose thats not personal either!

you havent hit a nerve at all i am just entitled to my opinion and have no interest in continuing this post any longer with you.

my partner is always saying to me that i should forget about showing dogs and go into agility or obedience because showing is about how your dog looks and different judges have different opinions at least with agility and obedience its about how good your dog is due to the time youve put in

> my partner is always saying to me that i should forget about showing dogs and go into agility or obedience because showing is about how your dog looks and different judges have different opinions

Well yes that is what it's all about of course, that's not rocket science and it's not for everyone.
Using your dog's other talents is just as rewarding (or more). Depends on your own personal choice.

Now, I am NOT attacking anyone, but this poster is NEW, and these catfights are what this new poster is going to see.  They might look at it like "Well these people are crazy!  WHy would I want to join"  Their first impressions last forever!!!!!!

This forum is to build peoples knowledge, based on ones own.  Not to bash everyone that doesnt agree with you. 

I am not making this comment towards ANYONE in particular, just a statement to remind people, that they need to realize not everyone thinks the same.  And the bantering back and forth does not help the OP, it actually hinders the post. 

Please take mind.

Sorry dont know how to do quotes Blue but yes you are right knowing what I know now I would not breed any dog which kept throwing pet quality puppies but that is because I now hope that I am breeding quality dogs and ones that I want to be proud of in my line.  In much the same way I would not allow my boy to be used with just any dog.

I really dont mean this to be horrible but there are a lot of people who do have the passion for dogs and when I have tried to explain it them they look totally blank.  I was the same.  When I turned up with my bitch for mating the stud dog owner had a look of horror at first then she studied and realised in spite of her obvious faults which I have mentioned she did have a lot of good things and her pedigree was excellent so she took a gamble and it paid off. :)  Through her I learned more than any book could ever teach me so I was lucky. 

A bit late in the day but just wanted to put in my two penneth worth ;)

I have been showing my current breed for 4 years, I have read the breed standard and sit and watch the judging but to be honest still dont understand half the time why certain dogs get placed over others - apart from the obvious, it must take years of studying dogs to really know the breed standard well enough.  I only know my boy fits the standard (although im sure not in every way or that would make him perfect !!) because he has done some winning and because fellow exhibitors have asked to use him at stud, he has also sired some nice puppies.

With regards to forgetting showing and just doing agility or obedience, that is all well and good but you cant base your dogs winning ability in agility alone on whether or not to breed from it or you will start to go away from the breed standard.  Alot of breeds and x-breeds do well at agility but some of the pedigrees are so far from the breed standard you would have to ask what breed they are !

With regards to forgetting showing and just doing agility or obedience, that is all well and good but you cant base your dogs winning ability in agility alone on whether or not to breed from it

breeding isnt the be all and end all, and if i did go into agility or obedience i would use a collie and it wouldnt be a kc registered one

we dont own show bred dogs anyway, our belgian malinois is working bred, so is our russell and my borders have working and show in their lines and even people who only show borders produce stuff that works from the research that ive done my puppy bitch that i bred has at least 15 working certificate holders in her ped

>breeding isnt the be all and end all, and if i did go into agility or obedience i would use a collie and it wouldnt be a kc registered one

sorry I thought this discussion was on breeding.  If you want to do agility your dog has to be KC registered, you dont have to get it from show stock but it will have to be KC registered, even if its just on the activities register - but that is a whole new thread ;)

i just found articles on agility and obedience and it says for agility it has to be on the activities register it doesnt have to be kennel club registered, and for obedience it says they dont have to be kc registered

activities register is with the KC just a seperate register.

yes but if your dog is kennel club registered it doesnt need to be placed on the activities register as it is already eligible to compete in these activities

>i just found articles on agility and obedience and it says for agility it has to be on the activities register it doesnt have to be kennel club registered, and for obedience it says they dont have to be kc registered

If the dog doesn't have to be KC registered to compete in Obedience/Agility KC shows how can you put the KC number on the entry form-this is requirement for all dogs irrespective of whether they are from KC/ISDS parents or from unregistered parents, they all have to be registered with the KC on either the full KC register or the activities register.

Unless of course you are planning only to compete at the Agility Shows that are independent from the KC your dog doesn't have to KC reg, -if your dog does a lot of winning at the highest level of these shows however you cannot go to the Crufts Championships nor go abroad & compete in European FCI events if your dog is not KC registered & the FCI do not allow non pedigree dogs into their agility shows.

For Obedience there are no independent shows & your dog has to be KC registered & that is in the regulations(as it does for all the KC licenced events)

well on the kennel club site it says that if your dog isnt kc registered it has to be activity registered to compete, so i dont know i guess that you will have to take it up with them

The Activities Register is the old Kennel Club Working Trials & Obedience Register ergo dogs on this register ARE KC registered.

I've been involved in competitive Obedience since I was 15 & I don't need to take anything up with the KC about dog registration needed to compete in Obedience especially as not only am I an Obedience competitor, steward & qualified KC judge I run an obedience show as well.

>i would use a collie and it wouldnt be a kc registered one

Would this be from fully health tested parents or just a collie puppy from a farmer/shepherd ???

just wanted to mention to you that i dont have 'too much time on my hands' and again why the personal comments you clearly dont know anything about me or my situation, which has no relevance to the original post either.

i wont apologise for saying i resent the original comment about non-show people being irresponsible and again would like to clearly point out i was not the person to get personal just browsing the posts and was insulted by what i read, each to their own at the end of the day but please dont pass judgement on peoples choices.

> Ever thought that many people have seen it and admired it ( or feared and cursed it) before it walked into the ring?

no, the comments are clear that a certain dog will win but that dog would have to perform on the day too not just look good but i have seen many dogs having a crap day in the ring but still go on to take 1st place???

I'm new to showing dogs but my folks have been doing it for 20+ years so I have been around shows. I don't believe that winning at shows necessarily means that your dog is a good specimen of it's breed.

I was at a show at the weekend, mum told me who would go best in her breed because that exhibitor had been overly friendly with the judge at a show a few weeks back. Well she was right but this dog is oversized which was blatently obvious in the ring as all the other dogs were the same size and this one stood out as being taller! Not only did it win best of breed but also the group. Chatting with other exhibitors in the group it was clear that this particular judge was face judging so what did anyone learn about the breeds in that group?

When I went to Crufts with my mum a few years back the very elderly lady judging the breed never yet looked at the dogs moving, she was watching the handlers faces! Obviously she was more intent on putting up 'friends' dogs that the best dogs! What does that tell you about the breed, what is a good speciment or what is a bad specimen? I do go to shows to learn about the different breeds, my own breed is few and far between although I enjoy watching other breeds and learning what to look for but when judges don't judge honestly it just makes you doubt everything that you have learned.

Maybe it was the only one of correct size :-)
The thing is there may be many reasons why one dog wins over another and only one of them is that the judge is bent :-)

> Maybe it was the only one of correct size :-)
> The thing is there may be many reasons why one dog wins over another and only one of them is that the judge is bent :-)

LOL No it was oversized. The other dogs entered have won all over, that particular one only gets shown occassionally because it is too big!

Yes there are many reasons, but if people say that you learn about your breed by going to shows clarify it to you only learn under honest judges! In my niavity back then I thought that a judge judging the likes of Crufts would be honest, yet she was far more interested in faces than dogs!

Perhaps it's qualities were great enough to excuse the size.  Was it not a different judge that gave it the group then?

I thought this was a thread on breeding??  I read it hoping to get some tips lol - not likely!!

Well :-D  Let's just simplify it for everyone shall we.

Breeder 1 -  Lovely looking dog, to bred standard, all health checks, great temparement, owner shows and  mixes with all the right people, can verify she has used the best stud most probably due to meeting quite a few along the way and has a cabinet full of rosettes and trophies that her dog has won along the way.

Breeder 2 - Also has a lovely looking dog, to bred standard, all health checks, great temperament, owner does not show.

Both have nice quality pups, both selling for the same price. Both in the same area.

From which litter would you choose a pup?????

> Perhaps it's qualities were great enough to excuse the size.  Was it not a different judge that gave it the group then?

It was the same judge, he judged all the breeds in the group bar one then did the group. You can rip up what I say, turn it around and put it back together in any way shape or form but no the dog wasn't the best on the day. Well we can all look for excuses for judges placing poor specimens, I'd far rather hear the truth about my dog from honest judges and know what is right and what is wrong. Obviously some folk don't mind winning by whatever means.

> but no the dog wasn't the best on the day

Forgive me for saying this but you have just started showing so you may not realise yet just how hard it is to judge a dog from the ringside.

i would choose the litter that was reared with the most care and love, indoors only and the one who breeds to keep a puppy for themselves not just to make a quick few quid :)

> Forgive me for saying this but you have just started showing so you may not realise yet just how hard it is to judge a dog from the ringside.

Ah right but what about the opinions of the other exhibitors who have been in the breed for 20/30 plus year? I never once said the dog wasn't worthy of it's win in my opinion!! I may have just started showing but I havebeen around dogs and dogs shows, this breed far more than my onw breed for 20 odd years but I will be the first to admit that my knowledge is limited, however I do have respect for plenty other folk in this particular breed with their experience and knowledge.

> so clearly they wouldnt be my friends if i was against it
>

not really, i have friends with different views, hobbies etc from me, doesn't mean i shun them, i just disagree. you made some very derogatory sounding comments about showing though. personally to an extent i agree with isabel, if your dog is not compared by trained experts against other available dogs then how can you judge if they are good enought to breed from UNLESS they are deliberately chosen for another reason than their conformation (temp, lack of breeding stock etc)

i would choose the litter that was reared with the most care and love, indoors only and the one who breeds to keep a puppy for themselves not just to make a quick few quid 


And if that applied to both breeder 1 and breeder 2, if they are matched in every way possible, which breeder would you choose to have your pup from?

They you will also know that there have always been ringside judges and I am sure there always will be.  Maybe on this occasion they were right, who knows, but there is always someone not happy.

> i would choose the litter that was reared with the most care and love, indoors only and the one who breeds to keep a puppy for themselves not just to make a quick few quid :-)

You are not going to like me saying this :-) but for puppy hunter I believe that they are far more likely to be able to meet a criteria such as that amongst people who show and are governed by breed clubs that any other type of breeder.  It certainly would not be too difficult to find someone that does all that and shows their dogs.

but I will be the first to admit that my knowledge is limited, however I do have respect for plenty other folk in this particular breed with their experience and knowledge.


Trouble is there is an awful lot of cattiness and bitchiness at shows, not many people are ever happy with the winner, they all think they have the best dog and they all think it is better than the winner. I've heard everything from the judge fancies her onwards.......... when you've been a judge for a long time you know what you like, and I dare say that is spotted immediately.

Sometimes you can pick the winner yourself, you may have even seen it shown elsewhere, judges I'm sure marvel over dogs and bitches they have seen elsewhere and get excited over certain dogs, in any competition many of us have for whatever reason chosen the winner, through watching it prevously, I don't think that is a crime, and I wouldn't listen to a word you hear from others outside the ring, honestly if bitchy comments were gas at some shows, if you lit a match the whole place would blow. :-D

The Activities Register is the old Kennel Club Working Trials & Obedience Register ergo dogs on this register ARE KC registered.

were they born kennel club registered?

Would this be from fully health tested parents

yes as we would more than likely buy an ISDS registered pup, the last collie my partner bought was ISDS registered but she didnt make the grade for trialing

if your dog is not compared by trained experts against other available dogs then how can you judge if they are good enought to breed

easy, we dont all suffer from kennel blindness, thats how

kennel blindness?? lol, if its all about whos on the other end of the lead (which i admit happens) how do begginers get a foot in the door? how do new kennels start up?

and your lack of kennel blindness makes you a completely impartial judge of your own dogs conformation?

and even being judged against other dogs in the breed doesnt mean alot as i know quite a few people who only go to shows when they know that the judge who is judging their breed likes the type of dog they have, so even if you had a great dog the judge may not think so because he prefers a different type of your breed

> Maybe on this occasion they were right, who knows, but there is always someone not happy.

I'm amazed at how you have changed the discussion from what I said in my first post. I'll go back to reading posts rather than giving any of my opions or thoughts.

yes im the first to admit the faults in my dog and i know that there is alot better out there and also a lot worse

then if there are alot better out there why breed them?