In reply to Rach85:
YOU SAID: you dont know anything about my living situations apart from what you see on here and how sad to make
feel bad for not tying their dog up outside a shop!

But noone has said you must tie your dog up outside a shop, have they?
You have been very critical and rude to me for saying i might tie my dog up outside a shop for a couple of minutes as part of a two hour walk, but i didn't say you should tie your dog outside shops, you can do what you like.

YOU SAID: I may not be there as much during the day but it sounds like my dogs STILL get walked more then those who do have all the time in the world so think some people have their morals back to front as my dogs are walked more and I work, how does that work?

I am not sure who the people you are criticizing for not walking their dogs are? You implied in a previous post it was me, but actually as i have subsequently said my dog gets walked/ run about 3.5 hours per day. You also state that i don't work, when in fact i do work, about 8 hours a day but as i do most of that work at home, (i do 2 sessions of about 3 hours away from home each week) the dog has me as his companion for all that time, if ever i am out for more than 3 hours i ensure someone comes in to take the dog out and play with him. However, i appreciate you have to work, and have not criticised you for it.

YOU SAID: you dont know anything about my living situations apart from what you see on here

This is also true for others, you seem very willing to pitch in and have a go at someone, making up the story as you see it, but maybe you need to check the facts too.

The misunderstanding is RReeve my statements where never directed at one paticular person, just me giving my explanation of why I thought it was wrong and how I do it is better in my eyes
I have been getting grief for saying not to tie a dog up why? Its my belief and Im sticking to it, I do challenge others when I am challenged myself as I believe what I know is the best way for me and you and everyone thinks the same of their own methods.

I never personally attack people, and if I did want too I would use their name, so please dont think I was singling you out as I wasnt or didnt intend it to come across that way directed at only you.

>Who wouldnt crate a 14 week old puppy with live wires and glass hanging around?

ME :-D

I've never crated any of my pups or adult dogs.

Not even when you were out or couldnt watch them because your having a bath? You let 14 week old puppies run round unsupervised with toxic and deadly things hanging around? :(

I only crate when Im not there to watch him and thats perfectly acceptable :)

ive crated but only as part of toilet training at night, I would never leave a pup crated all day whilst at work :(

I've never needed to crate as I work from home, and when out have always used my puppy proofed :-)  utility room.

But if I did work part-time or was visting a friend, going to the supermarket etc and had nowhere safe to put a chewing, little bundle of mischief I'd certainly use a crate as do thousands of other people, a crate keeps a pup safe, if it has kongs and water in there too a pup is quite happy and most probably would sleep anyway.

Crates are brilliant as a safe haven for pups, and they very quickly make them their den, so even though I never have had to use them, I certainly would not knock them at all.

I would absolutly 100% love to be able to work from home and be with my dogs all day :) Your very lucky :) !

Yes, I know :-)  and I appreciate that many people can't do that and make the best of their situations.  Many are also being forced back into work, and if a dog is not well behaved home alone a crate would be needed to ensure it's safety too.

Yes i suppose i am lucky the area i live. I dont fear for the dog at all - if i did i wouldnt leave him. I didnt i say i go the supermarket-i pop to the corner shop. In the shop (no matter where you are) you can see out the window.
And as someone has said, the dog would be walked less if i had to make 2 seperate walks-one to walk the dog & one to walk to the shop. To be honest when you have a dog, what is the sense in walking to the shop & leaving the dog behind?! :-)

I dont fear for the dog at all - if i did i wouldnt leave him.

Just answered your own question Freds Mum :) :)
And yes you are lucky as I dont feel safe enough to leave our girl anywhere unattended.

To be honest when you have a dog, what is the sense in walking to the shop & leaving the dog behind?! 


:-D That's why I drive.......... no really my local supermarket is a good 20 mins drive away, and my dog would much prefer a nice country walk to a road walk all the way to the local shops.

The corner shop is slightly different to the local supermarket granted, especially if it is on the return journey home from a walk, :-) but I would still air caution, dog theft is not blown out of proportion it is a real problem, I've had two attempted thefts myself, never mind left at a shop, and we have plenty of thefts just on the CD missing pages.

Just be careful, but I fully understand why you feel it a minimal risk.

I just dont feel safe leaving mu girl outside shops, espicially Turbo as well with his unusual markings would fraw way too much attention to himself and someone may get tempted to be light handed :(
If I was to come out and see my girl had been taken I can honestly say I dont know what I would do :(
Just out of curiosity does anyone else worry about coming out and not finding them or is Just me? I mean what would or could you do? :(

Now to get shot at. My OH has a Border Collie that goes everywhere with him, Jake visits sites in kent, Southampton, Feltham wherever my OH Goes, they are inseperable.
Admitidly in this weather he does leave Jake with me in the office where he frankly sulks until OH gets back and ten he ignors him!! I kid you not.
He also goes off to scout camps, scout walks everywhere!!! he has a crate in the boot of the Ranger but lately he travels in his seat belt on the back seat, gets parked under trees ect with all the windows open - in site compounds. He would never risk him overheating, if it was an area with no shade he would not leave him in the car, all our workmen and agents know Jake & Col travel together. I would not wish to have him left alone days on end when having Jake means OH has to stop get a drink and walk jake, its a two way thing, but get left in the car yep he does. But i don't travel to site so Whistler does not get left so please don't blast me!!!!

Thanks guys, thought i would get shot at by saying what i did. I am cautious and if for example a dog was stolen in the area i would think differently but at the moment it is as safe as it can be....also, Freddie sits there whining because he can see me walking through the shop so i would know if anything was untoward becuase of the lack of noise!!! one time he stopped making anoise-i wuickly looked out the window of the shop to see him laid on his back having his tummy rubbed by some youngsters-great socialisation for him i think & also a beautiful sight to see. :-)

I would never tie a dog up outside a shop, nor leave it in a car but that is my choice. I do see dogs outside the local corner/newsagents shop, which is the decision of the owners and the dogs have never (to my knowledge) come to any harm, but I have seen wary customers not want to pass the dogs. I have also seen dogs bark at each other, which can sometimes sound quite heated. What does anoy me is when dogs are tied up outside such supermarkets as Sainsburys, Tesco etc, the sort where the owner cannot possibly see their dog. I have on occasion, stood next to a dog where youths have been pestering it, and waited a very long time for owners to return with bags of shopping, not just a paper and milk, and when asked what I was doing I have said. Sometimes I have been thanked, sometimes told the dog is ok and I shouldnt have interfered. Now I go to the help desk and get them to call the owners out. Some will tie up near the doors, which does make some people nervous especially with some breeds. Although Guide Dogs for the blind do training around here, in town, I have yet to see them tie a dog up outside a supermarket and leave it alone. This is not saying they don't (i have no idea of their policies) but I have never seen it, the dog stands outside with the handler, or goes into the store.

Crates are wonderful safe places for puppies, provided their use is not exploited. There is no excuse to use them all the time, but what is the difference between a huge crate, with toys, newspaper (for a wee or poo) water and a warm bed, situated in the home, to an outside wellshaded/heated (time of year) kennel? provided the puppy is having its morning play and jolly, then lots of attention once the owner is home, how is that a bad thing? I mean, someone could be a housewife/husband, yet the puppy/dog could be left for hours at a time whilst the owner shops, visits friends, takes children to playgroup, mother and toddlers, or could simply be a lazy owner who has plenty of space (huge garden/acres of fenced land) and just leaves the dog to wander round all day while they ignore it. We all sleep about 8 hours, including the dogs, so really all that matters is the time we spend with them during awake hours, and sometimes those that are with them all day may not give as much attention and training as those who have a limited garden and time because they work. Good and bad on all sides, but I think the proof is in the pudding, as in if the dog is happy, well behaved, healthy and well in mind and body then what works for you, works for you.

Who wouldnt crate a 14 week old puppy with live wires and glass hanging around? I fear for anyone who doesnt crate their puppy when they are that young :-(

Well I never have done in 27 years of owning dogs and I've had a fair few more pups than you...... You just make things safe, move items, exactly like with a baby. I didn't crate my babies either.

>Who wouldnt crate a 14 week old puppy with live wires and glass hanging around?

I don't have live wires and glass accessible. I've never had to use a crate because I've made the room where the puppy is unattended a safe place. When the puppy's not unattended he's being watched.

>but what is the difference between a huge crate, with toys, newspaper (for a wee or poo) water and a warm bed, situated in the home, to an outside wellshaded/heated (time of year) kennel?

Nothing - and it's no different to a large puppy playpen. The important difference is when puppies are left in small crates where they have little room to move, their owners having read the theory that the crate must be small to housetrain them, not realising that this method requires the owner to remoove the pup from the crate when it's going to need to relieve itself. They seem to think that the act of confining a puppy somehow prevents the formation or urine and faeces! Crazy!

The important difference is when puppies are left in small crates where they have little room to move, their owners having read the theory that the crate must be small to housetrain them, not realising that this method requires the owner to remoove the pup from the crate when it's going to need to relieve itself. They seem to think that the act of confining a puppy somehow prevents the formation or urine and faeces! Crazy!

I've never once read a book on toilet training via crate it is not something I've ever done or would recommend and after reading the above, I'm glad I never have.

I dont leave dangerous things anywhere either but then again you dont need something already dangerous to be dangerous for a puppy.
Crates are a blessing for when you have to nip out and cant be there or when your having a bath and cant watch them like a hawk, you know their safe and warm with plenty of toys to keep them happy in their crate, not bored being left alone to roam and destroying things out of boredom.

And no babies arent crated lol but we still use baby play pens or mosesbaskets to keep them safe ;)

Edited to add - I think a dog should have a crate at least 2 times too big for it so it has full free movement and can stretch out to full length if they want to even in a crate :) Mitzs iz like I said earlier big enough for a St Bernard lol

Agree with what you say JG, I think the reason people get small crates is because of the way they are sold, you know, the 'terrior size' medium dog size' puppy size, its a bit like one size only for breed/age. The books seem to say its ok provided the puppy can stand up and move round. this is confusing, as what that means can vary to different people. I have even heard the local store telling new owners they don't need a certain sized large crate because they only have a small puppy....hello, the puppy will grow....and the smaller it is (crate), the eaiser it is to housetrain. How can you housetrain simply by containing in a crate beats me. I won't pee on my bed either, but confine me to it for 6 hours....

We started crates day 1 whenever pup went to sleep he woke in his crate. When I started thye vac once pup went immediately into his crate and stayed there until I had finished.
Both the BC & CS sleep in crtes in the kitchen, they are no different from bed rooms. In fact most of the kitchen is crate, they are huge. When we go shopping both dogs are left locked in the Kitchen not crated.
At night its outside "hurry up" their beds are made straight and two biscuits in each crate and they go to bed!! Fist thing (about 6:30am) its out back door open and a big stretch and cuddle and up for the day.
I do not feel we are cruel, its a space that belongs to each dog, children and adults! are told if they go in their crates leave them alone. They sometimes sleep in the crates with the doors open if they so wish.
Whats the difference between a crate and a cot?
They are usually crated in the car after a walk in which they are wet and/or smelly. If they are clean its seat belts on the back seat of his or back of my estate car I do not even need dog bars anymore. They are 15 months & 13 months. Crates are personal preference and each to their own, best thing we ever did. They also have their own crates taken to the dog minders. Simple.

I never see crates as a method of toilet training anyway? I just use it for when he needs to be confined (when Im out, in the bath etc) and take him out after meals sleeps and plays, never looked at it like it was for housetraining, just a safe den for them!

That is exactly what a crate is or should be, a den.

never looked at it like it was for housetraining
Some books do though Rach, in fact I looked one of my books out to make sure I had read it right, and sure enough, it states thay are good for housetraining because it will encourage the pup to hold on as they don't like messing their beds.

The way I used it was the pup would cry to be let out at night if it needed to go, so I would get up in the night to let it out.  If I wasnt there to hear it cry then I wouldnt shut it in the crate otherwise it is pointless.  My kitchen is puppy proof (not dog proof though, once they are grown up they can surf the work tops !!) I had a gate on my kitchen so pup wasnt totally closed in.

Calmstorm:You wont see guide dogs for the blind tied up outside a shop. The whole idea is the dog stays with its master (i.e the blind person) at all times. I used to work in M&S which was one of the few shops that allowed guide dogs to come in with handlers for training. As far as i am aware guide dogs are allowed to go everywhere-cafes, shops etc. It is not up to the shop to decide but a neccessity that blind person is accompnied by dog at all times.

That is exactly what a crate is or should be, a den.

I totally agree but when a crate is used to confine a dog for hours on end it is no longer a den but a prison. I used a crate for our eldest dog when he was a puppy, a very large crate within a pen, but he was never left shut in the crate and always had access to the pen. In the day time he was only confined for very small amounts of time and never for more than an  hour at a time. I would never have left him shut in a crate whilst away for a whole day.

I used a crate for our girl, she loved it :) the crate was left open, she use to go in there when she wanted to, we did shut it when she was very small if we popped out, but not hours on end that's mean.
Will definitely use one for our next pup.

> back of my estate car I do not even need dog bars anymore

Whether you need them or not is immaterial. Dogs should always be securely confined when in a car, either in a crate, with a harness or behind a dog guard. If left free they are likely to be thrown through the car window in the event of a serious crash. This is not only highly dangerous, it is also against the law.

I always used it the same as mentioned here.
While he was first crated I slept on the sofa downstairs next to him as we wanted his crate downstairs next to Mitzys, and when I heard him get up straight out to the loo with him lol!! Even if it was 2am in the morning lol

>This is not only highly dangerous, it is also against the law.

Just out of interest, which law? So that I can add the link to my list of dog-relevent legislation. :-)

I always used it the same as mentioned here.
While he was first crated I slept on the sofa downstairs next to him as we wanted his crate downstairs next to Mitzys, and when I heard him get up straight out to the loo with him lol!! Even if it was 2am in the morning lol

Yes they have to be taught to go to toilet outside but not sure how this works if they are crated all day as puppies?

Yes they have to be taught to go to toilet outside but not sure how this works if they are crated all day as puppies?

The very real outcome is a dog that gets used to messing in the crate as they have had to get used to it through not having any other choice. I have such a dog.Needless to say she is NEVER crated here but she was before I got her. Likewise, crating doesn't teach the pup to NOT chew things, it just stops it. It's much better to train the pup in my opinion.

Dog crates are a wonderful thing in moderation.
Used for short periods when the pup isn't under supervision they are great, but when people start caging their dogs like a budgie (that's probably really cruel too, actually, but i don't keep pet birds so don't need to consider it), for long periods that is when you get the problem you describe where your dog hasn't learnt how to behave in the house. It must be very hard to try to teach her now. How old is she?
This is a problem that people buy a pup and  think they can go off and leave it alone for long periods when it is still a baby and needs constant attention. There are too many places to get a pup without any sort of education for the new owner. I am sure reputable breeders will ensure the pup isn't going to be left unattended, but commercial breeders etc might not be so careful. Vets could also be more proactive when someone brings a puppy in for its first jabs, to make sure the owner knows what they are doing.

Who would crate a pup all day? We took our pups to work and again when they fell asleep crated them. Now as adults we do not use a crate all day but do all night as always so they still go to their room to sleep.
Both crates are covered and on opposite sides of the room. We crate in the back of OH Ford Ranger as they would be in with laser levels, boots, coats ect so they are safe.When in the car seat belts.
As soon as the pups woke they were out of the crate and outside until they started to "ask" to go out. Then we removed the crate from the office and just have one each for sleep.
If we go shopping BC sleeps next to the fridge and CS ontop of the crate so he can see out of the window, plus the radio is left on for company.
Crates are a great assistance in house training, ypou know when they sleep they are safe, when they wake up you put them outside immediately, and you keep accidents confined to one area all night. Apart from bad tummies neither of them ever messed their crate from 8 weeks old.
The odd upset tummy kept the mess to one area and we could hose off the metal tray and wash all the bedding, we alwys had spare vet bed and carpet for the crate.
Funny thing is if you do not put the vet bed just so, BC will not go in to sleep. Plus the first thing he does am is to chack if my CS has left his biscuit in his crate!!

Who would crate a pup all day?

I thought one of the posters on this thread said they crate their pup all day whilst they are out at work?

Sorry missed that i would call that cruel, when you have a pup you should have time to teach it to be clean can't do that leaving it alone all day. I thought the thread was about leaving dogs in cars and outside paper shops.  Im loosing it again must be the weather.......... Fabulous here in sunny Hampshire but rains coming people so don't hide your wellies yet.

We got our puppy at 9 weeks and I took 2 weeks off work, then 2 weeks of half days and Im only now this week having full 6 hour shifts, So I used all my holiday for the whole year to make sure my pup wasnt crated all day when he needed all the company he could get, also Im thinking of pulling a sicky to get more time off lol
But Ive gladly sacrificed all my holiday away time this year for my little boy as I wanted to make sure he was ettled and housetrained before I went back to work, well I was hoping!
Now he can go hours before needing the loo, but he was a very clean puppy from the start, never even messed in the house ever, not one housebreaking inccident, must be a record :)

Edited to add - Unless I just didnt see his accidents lol

I don't own budgies, but I do own 2 Amazon parrots and yes, they do live in a cage all be it a 2m x 1m one.  They get out to play in the evenings when they can be supervised.  And no, it's not cruel!  Quite often they don't want to come out even though they have the choice.  My last Amazon was out all the time unless we were out or at bedtime. Providing they have the choice and they have plenty to keep their minds occupied how can it be cruel?!

I'm closing this thread now as it's gone off topic - please start a new thread if you want to discuss crating.